Universal reconciliation

[2KnowHim]

And a righteous man isn't a sinner?

Not in Christ they aren't. Are you sinner or Saint?
Can you be both? Or wouldn't that be a double minded man?
Is the Righteousness of God a Sinner?

 

[James Is Back]

Not in Christ they aren't. Are you sinner or Saint?
Can you be both? Or wouldn't that be a double minded man?
Is the Righteousness of God a Sinner?

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[2KnowHim]

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I know that in my flesh nothing good dwells, but The New man which is created in Righteousness is Sinless, in fact he cannot sin. And that is who I choose to identify with, for my old man, the man of sin has been crucified with Christ.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[2KnowHim]

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And by the way, I had plenty of sin, and it still dwells in my flesh, but I don't dwell in the flesh, but in The Spirit.
And you didn't finish that full statement in Jn.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, (which I have) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, (Which He has) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, (which I would never say) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Barraco]

I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "three views of hell", traditional, anihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

Paul made it clear in Romans 1 and 2 that everybody breaks the law, whether the Torah for the Jews or the law in the hearts of Gentile believers and non-believers. So, when judgment comes, we may find that our own moralities convict us rather than redeem us (since morality is different from culture to culture). We all lie, steal, covet, etc. What about people who are basically good, with a few errors? Even John recognized that there were some sins that lead to death and others that do not (1 John 5).

I think what may remedy this dilemma is the principle that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Some interpret this to mean that even nonbelievers will do so. But is it possible that this is talking about a people from every nation that will hear the gospel and believe? Matthew 24:14 makes the argument that Jesus will not return and judge the nations (Matthew 25) until the gospel has been preached to every nation (ethnic group, sociogroup, et .; not just the political understanding of a nation). We know that the Word of the Lord does not return void, so the preaching of the gospel will redeem a people group from every nation, language, kingdom, and tribe. So every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord from every people group on earth, not necessarily all individuals.

One has to wonder, though. Is their a heirarchy of glory in God's kingdom? The Parable of Talents seems to suggest so. If this is true, then will good nonbelievers that are compatible with God's kingdom be allowed to stay, given the condition that they accept Christ's authority? Will they even submit? Time will only tell I suppose.

 

[jugghead]

One has to wonder, though. Is their a heirarchy of glory in God's kingdom? The Parable of Talents seems to suggest so. If this is true, then will good nonbelievers that are compatible with God's kingdom be allowed to stay, given the condition that they accept Christ's authority? Will they even submit? Time will only tell I suppose.

There is if we completely understand what a talent is; it is a measure of weight/of a certain weight along with an accurate scale

one was given one
one was given five
one was given ten

When we understand the concept of trading, if you only have one talent (one measure of weight) you can only measure "one measure" at a time

but if you have five (each having the same weight) you can measure "five measures" at a time by putting the five weights on one side of the scale

if you have ten (again each talent having the same weight) you can measure "ten measures" at a time by putting all ten weights on one side of the scale

Meaning the more weights/talents you have, the faster the business of trading can take place.

and how can one conduct business if he just buries the weight/talent, he has done nothing with what he was given. and if we see the spiritual aspect of collecting interest, it is weighing spiritual things against spiritual things in our mind, not turning what was meant to be a spiritual thing into something physical/literal.

We each have been given a measure of faith (a measure of persuasion, persuasion from His Spirit) if we do nothing with what He has persuaded us of, how can we grow?

 

[jerry kelso]

Ok, you say that Lucifer was some perfect angel in the heavens that rebelled against God and sinned. And that's where it all began....bla, bla, bla......I have heard this all before, in fact I believe it too long ago, but that was because I was being taught those things by men at the time.

Satan was never perfect, he was a murderer from the beginning, he abode not in Truth, .....
The scriptures you listed speaks of "A Man"...in Ezk. and in Isa. both.
And if sin orignated with Lucifer "so called" alias satan, then why don't the scriptures say that by one Angel sin entered the world and death by sin passed upon all men?

But it don't, it says by ONE MAN sin entered and that man was Adam. etc. etc.

2knowhim,
Satan was a murderer from the beginning and this context is the beginning when iniquity was found in him Ezekiel 28:15, Satan had no sin in him at one time when he was created for God did not create sinful angels. You are just taking that scripture out of context and making it from the time he was created. That is illogical and cannot be reconciled with Ezekiel otherwise the bible would contradict itself.
Romans 5:12 is referring to man's sin coming into the world. Incidentally, satan was in the garden working through the serpent. The reason it doesn't say by one angel is because Adam was the fountainhead of the human race and why sin and death was passed on through his seed. The context is concerning the difference between the first and second Adam. Read the scripture. Besides it says sin entered the world not originated. It entered the world of man who was the object that sinned. The context is not about the originality of sin from lucifer. You need to learn to understand individual context and compare scriptures with each other to see if they harmonize together so their are no contradictions. That is why you are confused and contradicted. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

What on earth are you talking about? What has this got to do with Lucifer as being Perfect in heaven from the beginning? And you demand scripture, so I gave them and then you go on about me not believing in the deity of Christ, are you ok? When have I ever denied the diety of Jesus Christ? That's got nothing to do with the subject we were talking about.

And where is the scriptures that say this?.... "God the father told the angels to worship the son". If your talking about this one, then I still ask you to prove that Lucifer is talking about an Angel or refers to satan.
But if You have to change the subject to answer me, if this is your idea of convo. then I'm out.

2knowhim,
That sounds like a post I posted to he-man about the divinity of God. I posted a bunch that day and I must have thought I was on that post. How weird because I have pushed some button that I know not of and now I am typing in a different font. and I can't get out of it. LOL.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Jerry Kelso

 

[Der Alte]

2knowhim,
That sounds like a post I posted to he-man about the divinity of God. I posted a bunch that day and I must have thought I was on that post. How weird because I have pushed some button that I know not of and now I am typing in a different font. and I can't get out of it. LOL.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Jerry Kelso

To change text font. At the top of the reply window are the formatting icons. To change font and size. Block your post. Place the cursor at the beginning of the text, hold the left mouse button down, move cursor to end of text, release button Click the A, 6th icon from left. Then select your font I prefer Times New Roman, if you want to change the font size click the T next to the A. I like font size 5.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Do you know the difference between Created and existed or being the source of something?
I have said all along that I believed that Evil existed because God did and God is Good, so the opposite of that would automatically be there.

As I posted, Hillsage (post #717)said God is the source of evil ("has its origin in God) and you then said you could not say it any better.

To answer your questions, saying something has its origin in something else is part of the definition of "cause". Causing certainly applies to something being "created" and address being the "source" of something. So clearly, despite your subsequent denials, both Hillsage and yourself believed God created, is the source, is the cause of evil. Which as I said before, would have to mean this view of some supreme being requires that this supreme being CANNOT be ALL Good.

If light is everywhere, there would be no dark. Similarly, there is no necessity for the "opposite" of Good driven simply by the existence of Good. In fact, even the potential for the "opposite" of Good need not exist up until one starts talking about creatures being created with free will. It is only then that the "opposite" of Good becomes a potential. Even then it is not a necessity because obviously such creatures are capable of existing WITHOUT choosing to do the opposite of Good, which is what brings that opposite from potential into reality. (IOW evil exists not because God created it, but because some of His created creatures made it real.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So let me see if I get this straight....You say God is All Good and that Adam was Perfect because God created him, therefore he had to be....let me ask you Dr. how does perfection Fall into a state of Chaos, sin, and Death if it was perfect from it's beginning?

The difference between our views is you have Him creating everthing perfect from the beginning and then ending up Evil in the end by Tormenting people forever in a burning fire....that's evil.
We have Him creating with the potenial to fall so that we would need Him in every aspect of our lives and through that process would come to Know Him, and in the End Restoring us all. ....yeah I'll stick to the Good News, God is Good even in the End. Or should I say Especially in The End.

There is no original Perfection in your view because according to both Hillsage and yourself, God created evil/imperfection, which is incompatible with the notion that God is Good (capital meaning nothing better). In the orthodox view, God made everything Perfect (Very Good), so the answer to your question is sin caused imperfection. Sin is the cause of the Fall and that cannot be attributed to God. In order for there to be a "fall" to a lower state there had to be an original higher state. Which is what the orthodox here are trying to explain to you. Free will created beings took a Perfect Creation and made all this "Chaos, sin, and Death" a reality. It is the choices of those beings that make evil a reality rather than any Act of God.

Just because one wants to paint a false picture of something (our view of Hell) it does not follow that any mud slung at that false picture will stick to the real picture.

LOL, first there is agreement with Hillsage in saying God is the origin of (another way of saying source, cause and thus creator of) evil and then one denies that and agrees with the orthodox view that God only made evil a possibility based on the potential actions of free will creatures He made. Can you see my confusion?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That's what I've been saying all along, it plainly states that they were both naked before they ate.

In the orthodox view, just like their view of the fruit of the Tree changed in their minds - to make what was Good into something they perceived (wrongly) would be "good"(in reality not good) for them, so did their view of their nakedness change. It says they were "ashamed". In a justly and righteously ordered mind, there would be no shame in being naked. That shame only comes when those perfect beings began to imagine (must occur first before acting) for themselves what could be done with their bodies and from such thoughts created a desire for (lust) an "unnatural" (think not good) use of what God gave them.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Notice not an angel, but a man.

Correct. But the orthodox view of the sequence of things is apparently less rigid and detailed than one imagines, at least in most camps.
Obviously Satan's fall from a perfect state must have occurred prior the scene in the garden - and being a spiritual being (as opposed to a part of this physical realm) Satan's fall is not a factor in the clearly described changes to this "world" which are also attributed to the action (sin) of a single man (not God). The Church holds no precise teaching on any particular span of time in this regard, only that like mankind, God also created all the angels including Satan and that some of them "fell" and those were led by Satan.

And I remind everyone again, one cannot have those attributed changes (or call it a "Fall") if one claims everything was imperfect from the beginning, which is precisely what I understood you agreed that you could not have said better in your post #719 (Hillsage said evil "has its origin in God").

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Paul made it clear in Romans 1 and 2 that everybody breaks the law, whether the Torah for the Jews or the law in the hearts of Gentile believers and non-believers. So, when judgment comes, we may find that our own moralities convict us rather than redeem us (since morality is different from culture to culture). We all lie, steal, covet, etc. What about people who are basically good, with a few errors? Even John recognized that there were some sins that lead to death and others that do not (1 John 5).

I think what may remedy this dilemma is the principle that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Some interpret this to mean that even nonbelievers will do so. But is it possible that this is talking about a people from every nation that will hear the gospel and believe? Matthew 24:14 makes the argument that Jesus will not return and judge the nations (Matthew 25) until the gospel has been preached to every nation (ethnic group, sociogroup, et .; not just the political understanding of a nation). We know that the Word of the Lord does not return void, so the preaching of the gospel will redeem a people group from every nation, language, kingdom, and tribe. So every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord from every people group on earth, not necessarily all individuals.

One has to wonder, though. Is their a heirarchy of glory in God's kingdom? The Parable of Talents seems to suggest so. If this is true, then will good nonbelievers that are compatible with God's kingdom be allowed to stay, given the condition that they accept Christ's authority? Will they even submit? Time will only tell I suppose.

This presumes all knees will bow at the resurrection of all mankind for the same reasons. Some of those possible reasons are not good/righteous ones. He wants us to bow now, not later and for the right reason.

 

[2KnowHim]

Dr. Bubba
If Paul found a "Law" that when he would do good, evil was present with him, then where do you think that "law" first occured?
Don't you think God would have faced evil long before the world was? When we look at Jesus are we not to see The Father?
Didn't Jesus face evil? Wasn't Jesus led by The Spirit of God into the wilderness to be tempted? If we see Him then we have seen The Father.

And I'm still waiting for the scripture that says satan was an angel that rebelled against God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

-

Dr. Bubba
If Paul found a "Law" that when he would do good, evil was present with him, then where do you think that "law" first occured?
Don't you think God would have faced evil long before the world was? When we look at Jesus are we not to see The Father?
Didn't Jesus face evil? Wasn't Jesus led by The Spirit of God into the wilderness to be tempted? If we see Him then we have seen The Father.

And I'm still waiting for the scripture that says satan was an angel that rebelled against God.

God cannot be compared to man. He is not tempted for that would require mobility - ability to change. Evil became a reality present here in this physical realm because of the sin of one man and only grows because of our many sins. Jesus faced evil because that is part of being human which He did for our benefit - and He is both God and human. Man can change, so Jesus could be tempted, but unlike Adam His human will remained perfectly aligned with His human spirit and God.

Will indulge on Satan but it does not help this topic as we will simply disagree on the meaning of scripture. Of course you will also not agree because it is a Church teaching. However since the scripture info is very sparse anyway - whatever one does believe you still have to ask whose teaching is your belief based on. I have an answer based on much more than claiming Spirit led (which the Church teachings do claim BTW). Spirit led sounds nice but simply by itself everyone can make that claim. So what man/men have taught you what you believe? (of course this will go unanswered because it troubles those not following the Church's lead to admit all their various and contradicting positions on Satan/fallen angels cannot come from the same spirit-so all are obviously listening to someone they just don't want to admit it.)

The Bible is a history of God's interaction with mankind, not the angels. So I would not expect to find a detailed accounting there. The answer you seek from the Church comes from the teaching traditions of the Fathers and is built upon the very sparse mention of the angels from scripture. Notably these:

Revelation of Saint John
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Story of Job
Even in his servants he puts no trust, and his angels he charges with error;
From the prophets:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Ezekiel compares King Tyre to a fallen angel.
Saint Peter
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Saint Jude
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.​

 

[justlookinla]

[QUOTE="2KnowHim, post: 68435064,
And I'm still waiting for the scripture that says satan was an angel that rebelled against God.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't this indicate that satan was an angel (cherub) and perfect before he rebelled....

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.​

​

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes justlookinla, the Fathers taught that King Tyre here is being compared to Satan. Even if disagreeing that it is Satan it is obvious the comparison is with a fallen spirit - so spirits/angels fell.

 

[jerry kelso]

Dr. Bubba
If Paul found a "Law" that when he would do good, evil was present with him, then where do you think that "law" first occured?
Don't you think God would have faced evil long before the world was? When we look at Jesus are we not to see The Father?
Didn't Jesus face evil? Wasn't Jesus led by The Spirit of God into the wilderness to be tempted? If we see Him then we have seen The Father.

And I'm still waiting for the scripture that says satan was an angel that rebelled against God.

2knowhim,
1. I have already given you the scripture. Ezekiel 28:15 Lucifer was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him.

2. Isaiah 14:12: How are thou fallen from heaven O lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! V13; For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north: v 14; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be liker the most High v 15; Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
This is a clear picture of Lucifer, the anointed cherub who rebelled and rose up against God and God kicked him out of heaven.

3. Sin originated in the father of lies for he was the first to ever sin.
The bible is not a book about angels per say though it mentions enough to know there was a rebellion and how much God hates sin and that the great confrontation is with Satan the power of darkness who has no chance in taking God's place even though he keeps trying. Just like my old boss wrote, You'd think he would learn but he chooses not to.

4. As far as UR is a good thought but it is not scriptural. Those thrown in the lake of fire their names are not written in the book of life and there is no where that promises they will have another chance or that it is temporary.
Hebrews says that a man is appointed once to die after that the judgement. Acts and Daniel and John all talk about the resurrection of the just and the unjust, the saved and the sinner, the righteous and the unrighteous. Resurrection is for the physical body and it will be a body of eternal substance. This is why they will be like their father of lies whom they served on earth in the respect of being able not to die and yet suffer real torment forever physically and spiritually because of the nature of their soul which was sold out to the devil. Jerry Kelso

 

[2KnowHim]

Evil became a reality present here in this physical realm because of the sin of one man and only grows because of our many sins.

But according to you, sin started with satan alias "lucifer" in the heavens long before the world began.

Of course you will also not agree because it is a Church teaching.

You got that right.

So what man/men have taught you what you believe?

None.