Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[Light of the East]

So you read that the Apostles prayed to Mary and patron saints eh? Where? in the book of Mormon?

You find out what the Apostles taught, did, and believed by reading their sermons and writings. And yes, they recognized the Mother of God from very early on as the New Eve who loosed the bonds of Eve's disobedience.

 

[Light of the East]

I am pretty sure the whole point is that we don't have any business making GODS judgements for HIM.... the lines of who goes where belong to HIM and it defies common sense for any human to think HE needs us or wants us to be drawing the line of who goes where.... we are only called to live and be what HE wants us to be through hearts of humbleness to HIM.

Ultimately, you are right.

 

[Albion]

You cannot say that about Protestantism. There is nothing universal about the hundreds of different doctrines and beliefs in Protestantism.

Why is it necessary to play this game of taking unrelated churches and pretending that they have fallen into a family dispute just because you've applied the same word to all of them?

We can say the exact same thing about your church; all we'd have to do is change the word to "liturgical" or "ancient" or one of a dozen other ones. Then we could opine, "You cannot say that about the ___churches, including the EO, because there is nothing universal about 'their' doctrines."

Well, why SHOULD we expect them to be the same??

 

[gigman7]

So your point is that there is security for an unbeliever. A believer who allows his heart to be hardened by sin.

Nope. That's not what I said at all.

 

[mafugma]

Hi Gordon - Yes I firmly believe the King James Bible is....it - all others are counterfiet - tough but that's life. I didn't mean the others are there only to support heresy but that you can find another version that will support certain heresies.
God bless

I used to believe the same as you. But I did it out of fear not understanding. I prefer the Oxford New English Bible as my study Bible of choice. I also read the KJ, Amp., NIV, NASB, NKJ, Greek Interlinear, and several others to see multiple facets of the scripture. Some I avoid like The Message because of oversimplification basically turning it into a concordance. Others I avoid like The New World Translation because it has been manipulated by the Jehova's Witnesses to suite their false message. Thinking that the KJ was the only Bible kept me from reading extra-Biblical works by Christian authors for fear of being led astray from the truth. But once I understood the Bible I was free to read other books that have greatly expanded my understanding of the Word itself.

 

[Albion]

It's not a question of whose version appeals to me.

Very well, but that is what makes the difference to many people.

If I thought that way, I would have remained in the Episcopalian assembly that I loved.

Not if you want to feel certain. It's disconcerting for a lot of believers to have to choose or even to deal with gray areas. To have "the" answer come from church that claims to be the only real church, the only one Christ founded, and always correct about everything makes them feel better.

You can deny the Early Fathers all you wish.

Did I say that? No.

 

[gigman7]

That is your opinion. Unfortunately, if you go back into history, you will see that the idea of a "believer's baptism" is relatively new and was not believed by the first Christians.

Circumcision was the ritual of covenant entrance in the Old Covenant. It has been replaced by baptism in the New Covenant. Every covenant has a ritual of covenant making, or "cutting covenant." Baptism is that ritual in the New Covenant.

No, that's not my opinion. But part of what you said was my point also.

 

[MikeEnders]

You find out what the Apostles taught, did, and believed by reading their sermons and writings.

I did and they never prayed to her or to patron saints....sorry. shucks they didn't even give her a capitalized title like you did as Mother of God.

 

[AVBunyan]

Again, Colossians 1:21-23. Is that Pauline enough for you?

21, And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in4 your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled –

Paul just stated you are reconciled so we are talking about a done deal here.

22, In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23, If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Notice that the word “In” is used, as “In the body of his flesh” and “Christ in you” (vs. 27). Things that are “in Christ” are saved, restored, and reconciled. Vs. 22 is pointing to something beyond “reconciliation”; it is pointing to I Thess. 5:23 and the condition of the saint at the Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cr. 5:10) when the Lord appears. At that time, many saints will receive reproofs and blame for their unholiness. This will be especially true of those saints who were not “grounded and settled” in the faith and were “moved away from the hope of the gospel” (vs. 23).

So Paul is not dealing with justification but how your works will appear before Christ.

 

[HatGuy]

wrong they are in life and in Christ and eternal and perfect in all their ways, This is in a state of life. Yet they will end up in eternal fire. There is no redemption for them as far as we know. And note the words used connected to them,

"4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;: 2 Peter 2:4

what would be the point to use angels that sinned as a warning of being cast down to hell, if this did not warn all that even the highest state of being and in perfection can fall and go to fire?

also we read

"5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 1 :5,6)

Here we see the same example but this time there is an hint of saving and destroying. Then he brings in the angels. All angels were perfect in all their ways, these are the highest example you could use that a perfect being can fall and go to fire. Or else there would be no reason to group them in with those who were saved and then destroyed

...

Angels are not "in Christ". Else they would also be the Bride of Christ, which they are not. I can't think of a single verse which speaks of angels in this way. The Church is "in Christ", but angels are not part of the Church.

The verses you quoted are in the context of false teachers, who may very well have never been saved. Jude speaking of God "destroying" those Israelites does not mean everlasting destruction (all we know is they died in the desert). Note that God never sent them back to Egypt. But he never let them enter their inheritance either, which is one of the reasons why it seems to me that such warnings have to do with a loss of inheritance (which is a big deal) and not eternal damnation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just because you keep denying the truth of the scriptures doesn't make your doctrine true.

Let's settle this again for everybody.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

Does the words eternal life appear in this scripture ?

If they don't then you are not teaching what is biblical.
JLB

Unbelievable! Paul had already DEFINED what he meant by "gift" prior to writing Rom 11:29. So we only have to go back to see what he defined as "gifts of God" to know what he was referring to in 11:29. Real simple.

Where is the proof that Paul DIDN'T mean eternal life in 11:29? It has not been presented. Only wild assumptions about broken off branches which has nothing to do with God's gifts, which are irrevocable (justification and eternal life).

Denying the truth of Scripture is not on me, but on those who deny that eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Good heavens!! Of course it follows. In fact, there are NO verses anywhere about losing the Holy Spirit in the NT. Jesus Himself promised the Holy Spirit would come and be with us forever.


If one reads the entire context, we are marked or sealed with a promise. Is your view that God breaks His promises? HUH?"

No,,,God doesn't.

Good. The indwelling Holy Spirit is a PROMISE for the day of redemption. That promise won't be broken, ever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That just says He won't take back a gift. A gift is not the same as "enduring to the end".

The gifts include what Paul had already defined earlier in Romans: justification (5:15-17) and eternal life (6:23).

 

[HatGuy]

Angels are sons of God.

Plain and simple.

We become sons of God, being born of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.1 John 5:1

and again

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26

When we are resurrected we will have achieved what angels have now in reality, which we have "by faith".

Angels are not the Bride of Christ or part of the church. They are not or were not "in Christ" in any way. I know of no verse that speaks of them that way. You are drawing a very odd parallel with verses here. In what sense are angels sons of God? They may be sons of God, but they are never the Bride of Christ. We are not the same kind of sons as we are not only sons as the Church but also a Bride. If you think God is making us into angels and not into glorified humans, you are misunderstanding what Jesus was saying in reference to marriage in the scripture quoted.

 

[Light of the East]

Why is it necessary to play this game of taking unrelated churches and pretending that they have fallen into a family dispute just because you've applied the same word to all of them?

We can say the exact same thing about your church; all we'd have to do is change the word to "liturgical" or "ancient" or one of a dozen other ones. Then we could opine, "You cannot say that about the ___churches, including the EO, because there is nothing universal about 'their' doctrines."

Well, why SHOULD we expect them to be the same??

You, sir, are delusional.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Who doesn't but the parables if you actually read them make very clear that those people had no root. They believed but didn't make a real commitment.

So, is your view that one must believe AND "make a real commitment"? Where is that taught? In the Bible, I mean. I know where it's taught outside of the Bible. One is saved when one believes in Christ as Savior. Only believers (already saved) can commit to Christ.

it does not say they were rooted and grounded in God but left. they were never there to begin with.

Jesus Himself noted of the first soil: "lest they believe and be saved". Here, He used the aorist tense, which means a point in time action. He was making the point that when one believes they ARE saved. In the next verse, He notes that "they believed for a while".

they don't enter into any once saved always saved promise . they prove they never were.

Where is this theory taught in the Bible?

 

[AVBunyan]

I used to believe the same as you. But I did it out of fear not understanding. I prefer the Oxford New English Bible as my study Bible of choice. I also read the KJ, Amp., NIV, NASB, NKJ, Greek Interlinear, and several others to see multiple facets of the scripture. Some I avoid like The Message because of oversimplification basically turning it into a concordance. Others I avoid like The New World Translation because it has been manipulated by the Jehova's Witnesses to suite their false message. Thinking that the KJ was the only Bible kept me from reading extra-Biblical works by Christian authors for fear of being led astray from the truth. But once I understood the Bible I was free to read other books that have greatly expanded my understanding of the Word itself.

Hi – I understand about being led astray but knowing I have the final authority in my hands gives me confidence – I read all kinds of writers and I don’t worry about it for I have my final authority in my hands.

By the way – there are only 2 bibles/manuscripts.

1. One originated in Asia Minor from which the AV is from.

2. The other originated in Egypt translated by a lost philosopher named Origen. All modern versions are based on the set of manuscripts from Egypt. Rome bases their version on the Alexandrian text so if you have any other bible besides the King James you have a Catholic bible. The NWT came from Alexandria just like all the others you mentioned you read.

God bless

 

[1213]

...The Bible says differently. Eternal life is for those who have believed...

Sorry, I checked, it really says these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

And righteous is know by actions:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I am not making these up, they are really in the Bible, and I think people should respect what the Bible tells.

And about believing:

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry, I checked, it really says these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

And righteous is know by actions:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I am not making these up, they are really in the Bible, and I think people should respect what the Bible tells.

And about believing:

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

Well, you didn't "check" very far, it appears.

Please check these:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Summary: when one believes, they receive eternal life.

btw, righteousness is credited to those who believe. We don't earn it.

 

[HatGuy]

Judas was once saved also as we see

Showing that he was one of the twelve doesn't really prove this. Remember at the Last Supper everyone calls Jesus "Lord" but Judas calls him "Teacher"? Perhaps Judas wasn't saved. But if he was, you are also making presumptions on his eternal destination. The scriptures give us no clue as to God's final judgement of the man, so I go no further than that when discussing him.

I enjoy the assurance of faith given to me by our Lord. So really, trying to get me to doubt my salvation is like trying to get me to doubt my existence.