Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[FreeGrace2]

I don’t see any Biblical reason why saved person couldn’t reject God. Therefore it is possible to become not saved.

This is faulty logic. The Bible specifically notes that people can reject God. But the Bible NEVER notes that one can lose their salvation. In fact, just the opposite; eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29.

Eternal life is for righteous.

The Bible says differently. Eternal life is for those who have believed.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

And those who believe are declared righteous.
Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, it is the same Grace that keeps us, if we continue to believe... which is how we obtained the grace to begin with.

So where are the verses that teach that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved?? There aren't any, which we all know.

If we stop believing then the grace stops.

Please show me the verse.

That's why Paul says you must continue to believe steadfast unto the end.

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1;23

How about actually addressing what this condition is about? The "if" is a condition. What occurs IF we continue in the faith? Did Paul say that we will continue to be saved? No, he did not say that. Let's look at the verse that has been "conveniently" ignored, v.22 - yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed youcontinue in the faith

OK, so now we have context for the condition of "continuing in the faith", and it has NOTHING to do with continuing to be saved, as being insinuated falsely.

What Paul said what that IF we continue in the faith, then God WILL present us before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach. The ONLY WAY to be presented holy and blameless is to continue in the faith.

You've used a verse totally out of context. Not cool.

 

[gigman7]

The future sins are forgiven?

Are ever going to post a scripture for anything you say?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 john 1:8-9

Why would we need to confess our sins and be forgiven, if we have all our future sins forgiven?

You are peddling a false doctrine and leading people away from the truth.


Paul warns people about the deceitfulness of sin, and becoming hardened and departing from God.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end...Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

I already have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Great point! The grace that we are saved by is the same grace that keeps us!"

we are kept by the power of God THROUGH faith

Please provide where that is found, so we can see the context for that verse.

and some can do despite the Spirit of grace, and turn the grace of God into laciviousness, and even FALL from grace

This completely misses my point. Just as we don't deserve salvation, because of grace, we cannot deserve to lose salvation, because of grace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Because we are held by God (Jn 10:28), which is also by grace, we don't earn losing it by anything we do."

Neither. Jn 10:28 is about who is holding on to whom. God holds onto His children, obviously. It has nothing to do with conditions, per your questions.

Wait a mo. That verse quotes Jesus as saying none of those who had been given to him could in any wise be taken from him.

Correct. All saved people have been given to Him. Eternal security.

Agreed. But neither are you free to conclude that they might decide to renounce their belief in the Messiah.

My conclusions are based on the Bible. Jesus SAID that some will "believe for a while and in time of temptation, fall away". Lu 8:13. Ceasing to believe is no different that renouncing belief.

So I AM free to conclude what the Bible teaches.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Colossians 1:21-23. OSAS is false.

Those verses don't even address continuing to be saved. It's about being holy and blameless, but…..only IF we continue in the faith. Duh.

 

[gigman7]

* Explain this part. How is it a Christian never had salvation?

Salvation is not immortality in heaven. Going to heaven is just a byproduct of salvation because Christ is your salvation. All Christian have Christ in them because Christ denies no one of His gift.

Well, that's an oxymoron. Having salvation and being a Christian would be the same thing. Well, in this case anyway. Meaning, they never were a Christian. If one becomes a Christain(gets saved) today, they never were a Christian before today.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I like how in John 10:28, Jesus said "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish..".

Notice how Jesus doesn't go on to say "except if....unless....etc."

If we could lose our salvation, don't you think our lord would have put a ginormous disclaimer with that statement?

Of course He would have. And in many other passages as well. That's the problem with the conditional security folk. They cannot provide any verses that clearly state that salvation can be lost. But the opposite is true; we are eternally secure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No it doesn't. As the parable of the sower goes on to say there are those who accept Christ, persevere, are tested and show fruit and prove that they have roots.

One should at least read the parable BEFORE they make any comment about it. Jesus NEVER said anything about "accepting Christ". The entire parable is about producing fruit. Out of 4 soils, only 1 didn't produce plants from the seeds. Soils 2-4 DID, but only 1 produced a crop. The FACT that plants came from the seeds in those 3 soils demonstrates new life. But Jesus' point was to produce a crop.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Grace is what God does for us.

It does not logically follow that we can't do anything to reverse our situation.

Paul is in no way stating that being "saved by grace" creates an irreversible condition. That is going way beyond what the scriptures say.

You most certainly can reverse it. Just walk away; go back to serving mammon.

Gonna have to show verses that teach this. Why just take someone's opinion about it? Where does the Bible teach that ceasing to believe or walking away, or "serving mammon" RESULTS in loss of salvation??

There is absolutely nothing in that passage that indicates a believer cannot leave the path of salvation.

So, what verses teach that one can leave their salvation?

 

[JLB777]

Actually JLb if you read that passage closely you will see it does in fact teach once saved always saved. Pay attention to the past tense in verse 14

"We HAVE BECOME partakers of christ if we hold...............

its the greek perfect tense. which means a completed past action that has lasting result. The truly saved person holds to the end and is not lost.

The condition of IF must be met which IF we continue in the faith and are not turned away from the hope of the Gospel.

It's about understanding what faith is.

Faith is the substance...of the thing you are HOPING FOR.

It's the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

Obtaining the reality of salvation, it what we are hoping for.

Paul explains -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

Hope that is seen:
which means that which is realized,obtained,manifested...

Now we have faith for salvation, which is eternal life the redemption of our body, the resurrection from the dead.

We will have literaly obtained the reality of what we now have faith for... When we are resurrected from the dead and hear these words from Jesus Christ...

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:34

If you have faith for salvation, then you are still hoping for salvation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for...

Hope that is seen is not hope, for why does one hope for what is seen, what is literally obtained.

That's why Peter teaches us -

Receiving the END of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

Faith has come to an end when you actually receive the thing you are hoping for.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

The future sins are forgiven?

Are ever going to post a scripture for anything you say?

How about these?

Heb 10:12 - but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God

Heb 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

What does "for all time" mean?

 

[gigman7]

To say we can lose our salvation is to say that Jesus' salvation is not pure. When I got saved, I was promised I that I would one day be with Christ(period).

 

[FreeGrace2]

there are actually three different positions in this thread and people who are claiming not to believe in OSAS seem only to think there are two

1) believe a real Christian can lose their salvation
2) believe a christian cannot lose their salvation even if they live in complete sin, no longer believe in Christ and even reject him to the day they die
3) believe a true christian cannot lose their salvation but by virtue of really having salvation would never revert to a complete continuous life of sin and never repent of it.

Position 2 can be accused of leading people to think they can live in sin unrepentant and actually be saved

Position 3 is entirely biblical and would lead anyone that finds themselves with no remorse for their sin and unbelief without solid foundation to have been ever a Christian. We define salvation too much by going to heaven. True salvation is being saved from a life of sin here on earth as well

Well, Jesus specifically noted those who 'believe for a while, and in time of temptation, fell away', so position 3 is refuted by Jesus Himself.

"God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6

Paul was asking a rhetorical question. Of course it's possible to live therein. In fact, he said as much in Rom 6:16. We CHOOSE to whom we obey; whether as slaves to sin, or slave of righteousness.

The Christian life is a life of choices; who are we going to obey?

 

[outsidethecamp]

I don't believe in the Security of the Unbeliever, so how do you define "saved"?

Our Lord did not say, "If you abide, then you will obey"!

He placed the condition of our abiding upon our obedience.

"If you obey my commands you will abide in my love."

The error to avoid is the promotion of the idea that abiding in Christ is not by means of obedience. Obedience is the means of abiding, not merely the fruit of it.

John_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John_14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The one that abides in the Lord is a Believer and is made safe and will be saved.

The one that does not abide in Christ, does not have faith and is an unbeliever. There is no security for the unbeliever.

 

[outsidethecamp]

To say we can lose our salvation is to say that Jesus' salvation is not pure. When I got saved, I was promised I that I would one day be with Christ(period).

Yeah, you cannot lose your salvation like losing your car keys. "Lose your salvation" is a poorly coined term. If one is abiding in Christ, then one has security.

 

[JLB777]

Gonna have to show verses that teach this. Why just take someone's opinion about it? Where does the Bible teach that ceasing to believe or walking away, or "serving mammon" RESULTS in loss of salvation??


So, what verses teach that one can leave their salvation?

If they become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and depart from God.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Our faith must continue steadfast unto the end.

If we depart from God in unbelief, then we no longer have the substance of the thing we are hoping for.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR...


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think it's a bit over-reaching to say that sealed with the Holy-Spirit equates to being forever secure... (even in rebellion towards God in unfaithfulness?), I don't believe that it's accurate to say a seal couldn't be removed.

Is there any verses in the NT about losing the Holy Spirit? No, there are not. And Jesus said that no one ( meaning no person, which would include even the believer, who is a person) can snatch a believer from God's hand.

However, I think the point of Eph 4:30, if that's the verse you're alluding to, is that the Holy Spirit is set upon us, as a seal. A sign of God's ownership upon us, and our belonging to him. Being sealed seems to be similar to being marked.

Right. We're marked for what? The day of redemption. And the seal is a pledge or PROMISE.

Go ahead and check this link I use to look up meanings for certain words in the Bible: http://biblehub.com/greek/4972.htm
In my opinion, the ISV offers a better worded translation:
"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, by whom you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption."

I think that seals as we understand today, such as the sealing on a pickle-jar, or some adhesive sealant, "flex-seal" for example, are quite different than the ancient seal. Ex. A seal of approval, or the seal of the USA, a wax seal, a print... I think those example are more along the lines of what is meant in that verse.

We're not talking about physical seals, either those of the ancient world, or by today's standard. God has sealed those who believe with the Holy Spirit as a mark for the day of redemption. This is a promise of redemption. This is eternal security.

When speaking of shipwrecking one's faith, I said that since faith is lost, so is salvation.

No one has yet proven this theory from Scripture. Salvation includes regeneration, being born again, being a new creature. How does that all just go away? It doesn't.

You believe it means that only a person's faith is lost, not their salvation if I understand correctly.

Yes, because they are different.

I don't believe that's to correct way to understand sealing. See above reply to pureinheart.
Secondly, since you admit faith can be lost...
1)The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
2)Faith is a gift
3)Faith can be shipwrecked, and by your admission lost
4)Since point 3 is true, Gifts can be shipwrecked, in other words, lost
5)Eternal life is a gift
6)Therefore we have no reason to think based on the fact that eternal life is a gift, it cannot be lost or "shipwrecked"*.

The false assumption that one is only saved if one continues to have faith is not taught in Scripture.

Further, Paul clearly defined what he meant by 'gift' in Romans: 5:15-17 is the gift of justification. 6:23 is the gift of eternal life. The VERY NEXT time Paul mentioned God's gifts is 11:29 where he said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

It is not sane or rational to exlude eternal life from 11:29, esp since Paul specifically defined eternal life as a gift of God previously.

btw, Paul never mentioned the "gift of faith" in Romans. So that is not in context. At all.

It's not God who's doing the revoking, but the individual who does the destroying. Apostasy =/= spiritual suicide.

Please back up this theory with Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If they become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and depart from God.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Our faith must continue steadfast unto the end.

If we depart from God in unbelief, then we no longer have the substance of the thing we are hoping for.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR...


JLB

Please provide verses to support your theories.

 

[Light of the East]

This issue has been run in the ground for centuries. There are reasons people struggle with eternal security.

One of the main reasons is that they refuse to listen to the Church, which is the final authority on all matters of faith and morals.

1. Because Satan has so many counterfeit bibles a person who is dead set on losing his salvation can always find a bible somewhere that will support his viewpoint. I mean there are 75 or more versions so just find one that supports your heresy. Try sticking with the one God wrote, the King James Bible.

Uhhhhhhhhhh......no. The scriptures that God gave were written in Hebrew and Koine Greek. Those are the originals. The KJV is just another translation. I would agree, however, that some out there are really, really bad.

2. Because a person doesn’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth then he goes to passages that doctrinally don’t have anything to do with a saved/blood-bought, redeemed saint in the body of CHrist. Instead of going to the Pauline epistles which deal with the saint today (Rom. – Phil.) he goes running to passages that…



a. deals with Jews under the law (Exo. thru John) where salvation is conditional upon his faith and his adherence to the Mosaic Law and

b. Hebrews thru Revelation which doctrinally deals with the future great tribulation, where again salvation is conditional upon his faith and works.

For example if one wants to go to hell then Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved is as good as one can find. For here the end does not mean the end of your life but the end of a time period, the 7 year tribulation where it is a faith/works setup. Or he can go to Heb. 3 (written to Hebrews, not the body of Christ) where entering into a rest at the end of the 7 year tribulation where again, you have a faith/works setup. There are many more of these passages like this that folks use to justify losing it but these passages are written to a Jew under the law before the age of grace or to the Jew working his way thru the 7 year tribulation.

Well, Jesus said He would judge all mankind. I ask again, if one is "once forever saved" then how does he wind up at the Judgment Seat for review of his deeds and to see if he has gained eternal life?

3. He often goes to Paul and misinterprets the passage, for ex. Phil. 2:12 where one is told to work out his salvation with fear and trembling and then fails to read the next verse which declares that it is God which will do the work. Or he can go to the famous Rom. 11:22 where the individual is not being discussed but a nation. Or he can butcher I Cor. 9:27 where Paul is not worried about being cast away from God’s grace but being cast out of the ministry. Or he can trip over Gal. 5: 4 where Paul is saying that if you want to try and work your way to heaven then you missed grace.

So there are many passages that teach salvation is conditional just find a Jew under the law or working his way to heaven during the 7 year tribulation.

Salvation is a covenant. This is the language of the Bible that you are missing. The word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the OT and NT, therefore, it is an integral part of mankind's relationship to God. In a covenant relationship, either side can break the covenant and the covenant is, for all intents and purposes, finished. This is exactly what happened to Israel when they killed Christ the Messiah and is why the nation of Israel is no longer the "chosen people." I'm sure that you are a believer in "free will" and free will is an important part of a covenant relationship. There can be no covenant without the freedom to either chose or reject the one offering covenant. Freedom also implies the ability to walk away from the other.

The “lose it” will search everywhere to lose it while ignoring the clear passages in Paul which clearly teach salvation is secure in Christ, for ex.:

1. Eph. 2:8, 9

2. Eph. 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

3. The Holy Spirit put you in the actual body of Christ II Cor. 5:17, 12:13 and then according to Eph. 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: - Would you mind telling me how you are going to get out of Christ’s body (Eph. 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone,) and then finally, jump out of heaven under your own power?

4. Works are clearly not a part of one’s salvation today – Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; and Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Salvation and eternal life are presented in the Bible as two different things. If you knew covenant, you would understand this. Salvation is being rescued from death. Eternal life is the reward for those who have faithfully kept covenant with Christ Jesus. It is referred to as "the inheritance" in Eph. 1:13-14 and other passages. An inheritance is given to faithful children.

5. The average saint today has no idea what actually happened to him doctrinally at salvation – He just think she made a commitment to Christ or asked Jesus into his heart, etc. You are redeemed and forgiven Col. 1:14; You are justified by the faith of Christ – Rom. 3:24; You are glorified Rom. 8:30; Sanctified I Cor. 1:30;

Now please tell me how you are going to undo points 3-5 by yourself. I’m listening.

We need to start a thread on covenant principles and how they apply here. You are viewing everything from the Roman juridical idea that God is a judge and Jesus is the lawyer and when they said "Not guilty" upon your profession of faith, that settled everything. Wrong analogy. Jesus is Bridegroom and we are bride. Forfeiting one's salvation is the eternal divorce.

6. You don’t even live by your faith Gal. 2:20

Galatians isn't really even germane to this discussion because it is about Paul writing to the Jews who were trusting in the keeping of the OT law - specifically circumcision - and telling them that the OT law will no longer save them.

I just scratched the surface on Pauls’ epistles.

Folks real simple – either you are trusting Christ alone or yourself. If you think you can lose it then you are counting on you to do something to keep it or you are counting on you to keep from doing something in order to keep it – either way you are counting on you and you have rejected Christ!

Relationships of love are kept by both sides. That is what a covenant is, a relationship of love. That is why God said in the OT that He was the husband to national Israel and called her an "adulterous wife." (Hosea) This is the language of love, not of the Roman courtroom, and it is where you are making your mistake..

So – instead of spending all your time in the OT, the Gospels and the tribulation spend a little time in the books written by the Paul for today written to saints in the body of Christ.

I will show you in Paul that there is a final Judgment in which all are judged and only those who have done good deeds obtain the inheritance which is eternal life.

God bless![/QUOTE]