Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[Light of the East]

Not true. Don't get saved, don't go to heaven.

Let's try this again. Let's take Romans 2: 5-10. Look at verse 7.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

Why are those who continue in well doing (good deeds) even at the Judgment Seat if they have already received eternal life and are once saved, always saved? Why the Judgment? Would you mind giving a little more substantive reply?

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?


EDIT*

There are basically two brands of OSAS: one which teaches that as long as you believe the promise of Christ to save you if you believe in Him then you will be saved, regardless of how you live, and the classic Calvinist position of the Persevrance of the saints, the P in TULIP, that holds that saving faith must one which evidences "things that accompany salvation," (Heb. 6:9) and that the elect will die with that faith.

The first brand of OSAS should be dismissed out of hand, as it effectively construes faith to be in a promise-giver, abstract from all that He is and what the cross fully represents, as all that we do is a manifestation of what we really believe, even if at that moment, and one cannot believe in the Lord Jesus as being the Lord Jesus without that faith effecting obedience correspondent with His will. And according to the light one has of that.

The strongest text for this are the ones usually invoked, such as Jn. 10:27-29, as they actually are contingent upon continued belief,
but the key issue is whether God promises to finally keep the elect in the faith, which Jn. 6:29,40 seem to support, or whether He makes them stewards of grace. (1Pt. 4:10)

In both cases God still justly gets all the credit for salvation, as man owes his very breath to God, and in conversion God draws, convicts, opens hearts and grants repentant faith, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; 16:8012; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) so that the soul does what he otherwise could not and would not do otherwise as a sinner dead in trespasses and sins. And then God works in and thru the believer to do His good will, so that God should get all the credit, while man is justly blamed for sinning since ultimately that his man's choice.

And God offers grace whereby one can resist sin, (Gn. 4:7) and by rejecting the level of of light and grace God gives men, then they are essentially rejecting Christ, who lightens every man that comes into the world.
But i am getting off into a related subject.

As fas as OSAS, it is incontrovertible that Scripture does warn believers - in writing to believers as being believers - against having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, and drawing back into perdition, and going back into bondage, falling from grace, making Christ of no effect, of no profit.

For this cause God works to chasten wayward believers back to walking in faith, as one can deny that faith.

• Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)
• Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38-39)
• Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:1-4)
• But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)
• But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)

The usual recourse by those who defend OSAS is to assert that such texts were not written to believers, but which is untenable in context, while it is also true that God "plays for keeps," and works to bring souls into saving faith, which he exhorts believers to walk in.

• But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6)
• For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (Hebrews 3:14)

And the way we do that is by gladly resting in Christ as savior, and thus respond to Him as Lord, seeking to be holy and channels of His grace and truth to others, making a change in souls for time and for eternity, to the glory of God.

Pray for me to do much better in that.

 

[Light of the East]

Sorry but that's absolutely false and I really wish people wouldn't not make up these false facts to back their theology.

A) Outside of the NT we do no have very many early church Christian writers and few even addressed this verse so theres just no truthful way to claim we know "universally" what they believed in regard to this passage
B) John the apostle would completely disagree with your assessment

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
I john 3:9

The verb is in the continuous participle in 1 John 3 as it is in Hebrews 10:26. That is when you are born of god you cannot live in constant sin (even if you trip and fall you ask forgiveness get back up stop sinning and trip again). For John to say you cannot continue sinning and Hebrews to say you can and even willfully indicates they are not talking both about born again believers.

What we have forgotten is that the Lord and the early church expected the wheat would continue with the tares. Rather than either accepting or rejecting Christ the parable of the sower makes clear you can receive with great Joy but no root and end up lost bearing no fruit. Someone can get a lot of enlightenment and even seem to be a believer but not be.

Typical cultic reply. Take one verse out of the whole of the Scriptures and build a doctrinal castle around it.

 

[fatherjimparker]

Let's try this again. Let's take Romans 2: 5-10. Look at verse 7.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

Why are those who continue in well doing (good deeds) even at the Judgment Seat if they have already received eternal life and are once saved, always saved? Why the Judgment? Would you mind giving a little more substantive reply?

The judgment seat is not a trial. It is the moment when Jesus will pronounce each person's eternal doom: "And (the wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46) Everyone's works will be revealed; whether they are among the wicked or the righteous will be clearly manifest to all. Therefore, God's judgment will be seen by all creation to be perfect.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear and glorify thy name, O Lord? For thou alone art holy. All nations shall come and worship thee, for thy judgments have been revealed.

 

[MikeEnders]

Typical cultic reply. Take one verse out of the whole of the Scriptures and build a doctrinal castle around it.

LOL.......you have no idea how funny reading your empty charge is to the ears of a protestant . Hail mary

but nope....not just one verse. but I can see why you would wave your hand at it since it is unambiguous

 

[JLB777]

If the ones who are saying you can lose your salvation were right, we'd all go to hell. That's all there is to it. Thank God when we get saved, we are forgiven for our future sins as well as our past sins. That's the only way we can get into heaven.

The future sins are forgiven?

Are ever going to post a scripture for anything you say?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 john 1:8-9

Why would we need to confess our sins and be forgiven, if we have all our future sins forgiven?

You are peddling a false doctrine and leading people away from the truth.


Paul warns people about the deceitfulness of sin, and becoming hardened and departing from God.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end...Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

 

[StephanieSomer]

I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?


EDIT*: I don't think this thread applies to this forum.

If salvation is not eternal, then Christ lied when He said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life...". If salvation can be lost, then the life he gave wasn't eternal, making Him a liar. Notice that He did NOT say " I WILL give them eternal life". He used the present tense. "I give them eternal life".

 

[MikeEnders]

The judgment seat is not a trial. It is the moment when Jesus will pronounce each person's eternal doom: "And (the wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46) Everyone's works will be revealed; whether they are among the wicked or the righteous will be clearly manifest to all. Therefore, God's judgment will be seen by all creation to be perfect.

As also taught in 1 cor 3
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Let's try this again. Let's take Romans 2: 5-10. Look at verse 7.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

Why are those who continue in well doing (good deeds) even at the Judgment Seat if they have already received eternal life and are once saved, always saved? Why the Judgment? Would you mind giving a little more substantive reply?

While i am compelled to conclude the evidence is against OSAS, having salvation and eternal life as a possession, which Scripture says one can know he has in the light of one's fruit, (1Jn. 5:13) - even if some Catholics object to that - is not the same as realizing it.

One can hold to OSAS and be motivated to seek glory and honour and immortality as they know that this future reality is what continuing in the faith will result in.

And as Reformers taught, it is the doers of the word that are justified, not mere hearers, as only a faith which effects obedience is true faith, which is counted for righteousness. (Rm. 4:1-7ff)

What Rm. 2 is not teaching is that it is the merit of works that obtains justification before God, though works justify that one has true faith. as Abraham did after God counted his faith for righteousness. (Gn. 15:6)

 

[MikeEnders]

If salvation is not eternal, then Christ lied when He said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.."

Romans 8 makes it even more unambiguous

"38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

despite what one person tried to claim eternal life is not just a nature its a future and nothing to come will ever separate a true Christian from Christ.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Ananias and Sepphira were Christians not Jews. They had accepted Christ and thus were saved. However, they both lied to God and were struck down. They died liars and thus lost, no liars get to heaven.

They can easily be dismissed as being tares among wheat from the beginning, as under Perseverance of the saints then true believers always die in faith. See my post below on more weighty texts.

 

[JLB777]

This issue has been run in the ground for centuries. There are reasons people struggle with eternal security.

1. Because Satan has so many counterfeit bibles a person who is dead set on losing his salvation can always find a bible somewhere that will support his viewpoint. I mean there are 75 or more versions so just find one that supports your heresy. Try sticking with the one God wrote, the King James Bible.

2. Because a person doesn’t know how to rightly divide the word of truth then he goes to passages that doctrinally don’t have anything to do with a saved/blood-bought, redeemed saint in the body of CHrist. Instead of going to the Pauline epistles which deal with the saint today (Rom. – Phil.) he goes running to passages that…

a. deals with Jews under the law (Exo. thru John) where salvation is conditional upon his faith and his adherence to the Mosaic Law and

b. Hebrews thru Revelation which doctrinally deals with the future great tribulation, where again salvation is conditional upon his faith and works.
For example if one wants to go to hell then Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved is as good as one can find. For here the end does not mean the end of your life but the end of a time period, the 7 year tribulation where it is a faith/works setup. Or he can go to Heb. 3 (written to Hebrews, not the body of Christ) where entering into a rest at the end of the 7 year tribulation where again, you have a faith/works setup. There are many more of these passages like this that folks use to justify losing it but these passages are written to a Jew under the law before the age of grace or to the Jew working his way thru the 7 year tribulation.

3. He often goes to Paul and misinterprets the passage, for ex. Phil. 2:12 where one is told to work out his salvation with fear and trembling and then fails to read the next verse which declares that it is God which will do the work. Or he can go to the famous Rom. 11:22 where the individual is not being discussed but a nation. Or he can butcher I Cor. 9:27 where Paul is not worried about being cast away from God’s grace but being cast out of the ministry. Or he can trip over Gal. 5: 4 where Paul is saying that if you want to try and work your way to heaven then you missed grace.

So there are many passages that teach salvation is conditional just find a Jew under the law or working his way to heave n during the 7 year tribulation.

The “lose it” will search everywhere to lose it while ignoring the clear passages in Paul which clearly teach salvation is secure in Christ, for ex.:

1. Eph. 2:8, 9

2. Eph. 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

3. The Holy Spirit put you in the actual body of Christ II Cor. 5:17, 12:13 and then according to Eph. 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: - Would you mind telling me how you are going to get out of Christ’s body (Eph. 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone,) and then finally, jump out of heaven under your own power?

4. Works are clearly not a part of one’s salvation today – Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; and Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

5. The average saint today has no idea what actually happened to him doctrinally at salvation – He just think she made a commitment to Christ or asked Jesus into his heart, etc. You are redeemed and forgiven Col. 1:14; You are justified by the faith of Christ – Rom. 3:24; You are glorified Rom. 8:30; Sanctified I Cor. 1:30;

Now please tell me how you are going to undo points 3-5 by yourself. I’m listening.

6. You don’t even live by your faith Gal. 2:20

I just scratched the surface on Pauls’ epistles.

Folks real simple – either you are trusting Christ alone or yourself. If you think you can lose it then you are counting on you to do something to keep it or you are counting on you to keep from doing something in order to keep it – either way you are counting on you and you have rejected Christ!

So – instead of spending all your time in the OT, the Gospels and the tribulation spend a little time in the books written by the Paul for today written to saints in the body of Christ.

God bless!

Paul said -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns the Corinthians and Ephesians of the same thing.

Jesus established the meaning of "inherit the kingdom of God".


JLB

 

[PeaceByJesus]

If salvation is not eternal, then Christ lied when He said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life...". If salvation can be lost, then the life he gave wasn't eternal, making Him a liar. Notice that He did NOT say " I WILL give them eternal life". He used the present tense. "I give them eternal life".

However, that text is conditional upon continuous belief, that it is those who believe with a faith that follows its Object (the Lord Jesus), which disqualifies those who no longer do. You could argue that true believers will never depart from the living God by unbelief, falling from grace, however Scripture warns them from doing this. (Heb. 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 4:1-4)

 

[pureinheart]

I believe in the believer's conditional security. That means as long as a person remains a God-loving christian, he's saved. If he stops being a christian, he's not saved. Let's say he commits apostasy, he would then lose his salvation and desperately needs to come back to Christ.

Endure this is really good and pretty much how I think, though I tend to lean more towards OSAS.

The reason I came to this conclusion is due to the fact that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Back in the day a seal was something that could not be broken.

Now here is where I can be swayed the other way- I've seen people that I know were saved, yet walked away and now claim they aren't Christian. Could they be back-slidden? The Parodical Son, per se? I just don't know. I could see how a persons heart could grow cold...

 

[mmksparbud]

It is also interesting to note that the New testament is written to believers. To let them know that if you practice those things, you can not inherit the kingdom of God. The disciples and all first Christians taught from the OT--that is what the new converts were converted by. They were shown how Christ was the fulfillment of the all that was written about Him in the OT. Many of books of the NT were nit even written until years after the death of Christ. Paul and the other disciples were opening up the scriptures to the New Covenant to the Jews. It was from the Jews that the first converts were made.

 

[Tellastory]

No such thing as a pretrib Rapture.


JLB

That is the only thing that can explain how scripture testifies that Jesus will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39 ) and yet God is coming to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) because of the falling away from the faith ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) How else can you explain how one can become a castaway ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) for not abiding in Him ( John 15:1-6 ) because of iniquity ( Matthew 7:21-23 & Titus 1:12 & 2 Timothy 2:12 )and yet still be in His House, but to be received later on after chastening from the Father ( Hebrews 12th chaper ) after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonour ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 )? If you read 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, you can see that fellowship is like having a feast together in sincerity & truth and the purpose of excommunication is to give the unrepentant believer into the hands of Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of Jesus Christ. What God instructs the church to do, so will God do as well when He comes to judge His House first before He comes back with the pre trib raptured saints to judge the world in fighting Satan & his armies as prophesied in Zechariah 14th chapter which happens before the saints coming out of the great tribulation are resurrected as Revelations 20 testifies.

That is the only event that aligns all the scriptures in testifying that OSAS is true & yet not every saved believers will be received by the Bridegroom when He comes to judge His House because of the falling away from the faith. Salvation is a free gift, but discipleship is running the race by faith in Jesus Christ in trusting Him as our personal Good Shepherd in helping us to abide in Him & His words to be received as a vessel unto honour in His House. This is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or be cut off from their first inheritance to have their portion with the unbelievers when the world gets their hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth. Luke 12:40-49

 

[HannahElizaW]

It is Fact, because if you would turn away from God and reject him, You never knew him. the Bible is not saying you can lose your salvation, because if you abandoned God, you were never saved to begin with.

That, actually, is something I've worried about for some time..

 

[MikeEnders]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end...Hebrews 3:12-14

Actually JLb if you read that passage closely you will see it does in fact teach once saved always saved. Pay attention to the past tense in verse 14

"We HAVE BECOME partakers of christ if we hold...............

its the greek perfect tense. which means a completed past action that has lasting result. The truly saved person holds to the end and is not lost.

this is similar to 1 john 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

 

[gordonhooker]

This issue has been run in the ground for centuries. There are reasons people struggle with eternal security.

1. Because Satan has so many counterfeit bibles a person who is dead set on losing his salvation can always find a bible somewhere that will support his viewpoint. I mean there are 75 or more versions so just find one that supports your heresy. Try sticking with the one God wrote, the King James Bible.

respectfully snipped for brevity....

Hi,

I won't normally get into arguments about interpretation of scripture as I believe it is a waste of our God given energy... but your statement above made me do a double take so I thought I would try and clarify what you are saying...

Are you saying that you believe the King James version of the Bible is the only true word of God, and that all other translation are simply there to support what you call others heresy?

 

[MikeEnders]

there are actually three different positions in this thread and people who are claiming not to believe in OSAS seem only to think there are two

1) believe a real Christian can lose their salvation
2) believe a christian cannot lose their salvation even if they live in complete sin, no longer believe in Christ and even reject him to the day they die
3) believe a true christian cannot lose their salvation but by virtue of really having salvation would never revert to a complete continuous life of sin and never repent of it.

Position 2 can be accused of leading people to think they can live in sin unrepentant and actually be saved

Position 3 is entirely biblical and would lead anyone that finds themselves with no remorse for their sin and unbelief without solid foundation to have been ever a Christian. We define salvation too much by going to heaven. True salvation is being saved from a life of sin here on earth as well

"God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6