Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[gigman7]

So you disagree with Jesus?

Maybe believe to Jesus means more than what believe means today.

Believe means commit, trust, obey.

Unbelief is disobedience.

Read what Jesus said... lest they should believe and be saved.


JLB

I never said that I disagree with Jesus.

Yes, he said believe AND be saved. We do not get saved the moment we start to believe. For many of us, we have believed all of our lives, but got saved after we became accountable.

 

[JLB777]

Can you be "unborn again"?

Also, on the day you were saved, did God know everything you would not do right in the future, every sin you would commit later, and all the days you were not showing your "faith by your works" after you were saved THAT DAY?
Did God not know all about your future GOOD WORKS and future BAD BEHAVIOR the day he saved you?
Did he save you >anyway<, KNOWING you, knowing what you would not do, as well as what you would do, later?
Yet he saved you anyway.........knowing....

Study all that for a while.

No scripture, only your opinion.

That's why nobody takes OSAS seriously, because those that push that doctrine, do so based on what they were taught, as opposed to what they studied from the bible.

Can you tell me what the phrase "not inherit the kingdom" means?


JLB

 

[gigman7]

No scripture, only man's opinion.


JLB

Incorrect!

 

[JLB777]

Can you be "unborn again"?

Also, on the day you were saved, did God know everything you would not do right in the future, every sin you would commit later, and all the days you were not showing your "faith by your works" after you were saved THAT DAY?
Did God not know all about your future GOOD WORKS and future BAD BEHAVIOR the day he saved you?
Did he save you >anyway<, KNOWING you, knowing what you would not do, as well as what you would do, later?
Yet he saved you anyway.........knowing....

Study all that for a while.

Can you name a son of God that is going to hell?

I can.

Here's a hint: Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Incorrect!

More opinion with no scripture.

 

[Ronnie Tanner]

The person who wrote this clearly does not know what they are talking about.

Can you "clearly" point out what is in error?

 

[HatGuy]

That's why nobody takes OSAS seriously, because those that push that doctrine, do so based on what they were taught, as opposed to what they studied from the bible.

Can you tell me what the phrase "not inherit the kingdom" means?


JLB

If you think that no one takes OSAS seriously then you probably need to brush up on your church history mate... Just saying

 

[gigman7]

Can you "clearly" point out what is in error?

Anywhere that it states that you can lose your salvation.

 

[RickyD]

I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?


EDIT*: I don't think this thread applies to this forum.

Hannah,
In chapter 15 of Genesis, we see God making His covenant with Abram. In those days, an important contract was ratified by placing cut-up portions of animals in a cross shape and the participants in the contract walking in between these animal pieces while they recited the terms of the contract. The symbolism of such an act meaning, if the terms were violated the large amount of blood spilled in the agreement could/would also be visited upon the participant who was the violator.

God had Abram divide and place the animals appropriately, and then caused Abram to fall into a deep sleep. While Abram slept, he saw God, in the guise like that of a pillar of smoke and also of fire appeared and passed through the animal parts. God had made a unilateral covenant with Abram. Abram never made his walk, thus never committing himself to terms, as had God. This was indeed a good covenant for Abram, soon to be Abraham.

Ours is better, so if God would so covenant with Abram, how much more Grace and Patience will He have with ours? Saved is saved for all times, in all situations, and for all those who would turn to Jesus Christ for a Savior. Signed, sealed, and delivered. Praise His Name Forever!

 

[JLB777]

If you think that no one takes OSAS seriously then you probably need to brush up on your church history mate... Just saying

Do you believe in OSAS?


JLB

 

[gigman7]

More opinion with no scripture.

Not an opinion!

 

[HatGuy]

Do you believe in OSAS?


JLB

Depends what you mean by "saved". Going to heaven? Being saved from sinning? Having a closer union with Christ? Being justified? Being sanctified? Being glorified?

(See my previous post for more context.) The reason why guys can talk past each other here is because we sometimes have different ideas on what being saved means.

For the record I believe in once justified, always justified. But not always sanctified.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Because we are held by God (Jn 10:28), which is also by grace, we don't earn losing it by anything we do."

Are you sure that the reference is to abandoning the faith (as opposed to committing sins)?

Neither. Jn 10:28 is about who is holding on to whom. God holds onto His children, obviously. It has nothing to do with conditions, per your questions.

And is that--abandoning the faith--even possible?

Well, let's look at what Jesus said:
"“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." Luke 8:13

The words "fall away" refer back to "believe for a while". So yes, it is "even possible". Jesus indicated as much.

The obvious meaning of Jesus' words would seem to be that those whom the Father had given him would NOT become faithless.

How is that "obvious"? Please advise. Jesus said nothing about keeping anyone faithful, as your post insinuates. Not even close to that.

Here is exactly what He said: "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”
Jn 10:28,29

There is nothing here about conditions for not being "snatched" from the Father's hand.

v.28 is a clear statement about eternal security: Jesus gives eternal life to them (believers), and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. Again, nothing about conditions of behavior. Those who have believed HAVE eternal life. Jesus said that in John 5:24. And again said that they will NOT come into condemnation.

 

[JLB777]

Depends what you mean by "saved". Going to heaven? Being saved from sinning? Having a closer union with Christ? Being justified? Being sanctified? Being glorified?

(See my previous post for more context.) The reason why guys can talk past each other here is because we sometimes have different ideas on what being saved means.

For the record I believe in once justified, always justified. But not always sanctified.

Saved = welcomed into the kingdom of God

Not saved = condemned to the everlasting fires of hell

 

[HatGuy]

Saved = welcomed into the kingdom of God

Not saved = condemned to the everlasting fires of hell

What does it mean to be "welcomed into the kingdom of God"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is easy. Yes, once SAVED, always savsa!

Anyone who harmonizes scripture can see this plainly.

Anyone who claims to be saved, but lives like a heathen, thinking they 'lost' their salvation, OR anyone who claims salvation, then walks away from God, being perceived as losing their salvation, were never SAVED to begin with. You can't lose what you never had!

Why not believe what Jesus clearly taught in the parable of the soils? That some will "believe for a while" and then "fall away" from their faith?

And Paul told Timothy that in "latter times, some will abandon (apostatize) the faith in 1 Tim 4:1. But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from (aphistemi) the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

aphistēmi
1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
1a) to excite to revolt
2) to stand off, to stand aloof
2a) to go away, to depart from anyone
2b) to desert, withdraw from one
2c) to fall away, become faithless
2d) to shun, flee from
2e) to cease to vex one
2f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away
2g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from

It is clear from Scripture that a believer can most assuredly quit believing. Sadly. Scripture does NOT teach perseverance of the saints. Scripture teaches preservation of the saints. Big difference.

 

[RickyD]

Losing one's salvation through forbidden behaviors:

Three verses from the Christian Scriptures seem to imply that certain behaviors will cancel a person's salvation. Three passages declare absolutely that all persons who perform certain behaviors will not "inherit the kingdom of God". These verses seem to be absolute. That is, they apply to everyone, even to those who have been previously saved:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(ASV)
St. Paul appears to state that some members of the church at Corinth were once following some of the behaviors listed and would thus not inherit the kingdom of God. But after they were saved, they changed their behavior. But the passage does seem to state unambiguously that all individuals who commit one of the forbidden sins after having been saved will go to hell.

​

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava3.htm

Matthew,

Who are the unrighteous? I believe they are the unsaved.

How does one become righteous? I believe it is imputed by and upon our acceptance of Christ. Is our own righteousness not as filthy rags?

So we were all unrighteous without hope, until be believed and trusted Christ for our salvation. THEN and only then, we obtained righteousness through Christ.

Where does it say that being washed, sanctified, and justified means changing personal behavior? You won't find it. These are things that faith does through Christ. Not of ourselves that we should boast. And yes, I would boast if I could do that for myself.

Don't fall into the trap of seeing people as less than God does. That never ends well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here's one possible argument against the literal OSAS position...

God issues us with free will. Free will, presumably, includes the ever-present possibility of rejecting God, rejecting one's belief in God, and becoming, say, an atheist.

Are atheists (of this sort) then nonetheless saved?

Yes, because of God's GRACE, which seems to be woefully misunderstood by the conditional security folk. Just as we do not earn nor deserve salvation, we cannot earn loss of salvation. What God saves, by grace, He keeps by that same grace.

To assert so would seem very odd indeed.

Only to those who do not understand the concept of grace.

The message--well supported by scripture, I'd say, including many passages quoted here by others in this debate--is that one must not only "get with the program...One must stay with the program.

Sure. That's what God wants of ALL His children. To "stay with the program". But please provide any verse that actually comes out and SAYS that one can lose their salvation. It cannot be found.

 

[Admiral_Kang]

I mean my goodness, seeing the harshness and judgementalism of the people on this forum - as a whole, not just on this thread - it's no wonder the World wants nothing to do with Christianity. So many of you people have come so far from the loving Jesus that I know, who will never leave me nor forsake me, to being a bunch of harsh Pharisees. Did you know that a recent poll of young people in the USA showed that the thing that 90% of them knew about Christianity is that 'it's the religion that hates gays'.

This is a reprehensible state of affairs. How did we get here? By allowing the yeast of the Pharisees to work its way through the whole batch of dough. By discarding the freedom that Jesus brings to all and adopting instead the exact same set of religious requirements that Jesus came to set us free from.

Do you know what you do to people who come looking here perhaps for encouragement, perhaps for comfort, perhaps they have lost a loved one and want to know if they'll see them after they die? Do you know? All they see is a set of arguments and theories, hardness, quicksand and absolutely no comfort whatsoever! You send the bleeding away in a worse state than they were in before, by dogmatically stating your 'Truths' as if they exist in a vacuum. Shame on you all! Read the 'woes to the Pharisees' passages in the Gospels. See what you have become. And then go and repent! You travel miles to get one convert and then you make him twice the child of hell that you are! You spend so much effort on 'converting' people, and then you bring them in to your churches and make them part of the same set of legalistic claptrap-believing unfortunates that you are. Oh how I pray that you people could be freed into the 'glorious freedom of the Children of God'. The freedom of Grace rather than Rules.

Because you are so far from the Gospel. You are so far from what Jesus wants for you. You are still in your cages and He longs to set you free!

Study the Book of Galatians until it comes out of your ears. This is the key to your freedom! And then just for starters, have a look at this guy's blog: http://tinyurl.com/nartr85 and digest it. Knowing you lot, you'll most likely just tear it to shreds; that's what happens with pearls before swine and it's exactly what Jesus meant when He said it.

But if this diatribe succeeds in opening the eyes of just one of you, then it was worth it. But sadly I don't think it will. Blind Pharisees! Poor, blind Pharisees!

 

[Admiral_Kang]

Losing one's salvation through forbidden behaviors:

Three verses from the Christian Scriptures seem to imply that certain behaviors will cancel a person's salvation. Three passages declare absolutely that all persons who perform certain behaviors will not "inherit the kingdom of God". These verses seem to be absolute. That is, they apply to everyone, even to those who have been previously saved:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(ASV)
St. Paul appears to state that some members of the church at Corinth were once following some of the behaviors listed and would thus not inherit the kingdom of God. But after they were saved, they changed their behavior. But the passage does seem to state unambiguously that all individuals who commit one of the forbidden sins after having been saved will go to hell.

​

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava3.htm

And how do you know that 'Inherit the Kingdom of God' means the same thing as 'Salvation'? You are crossing over your terminology!