"The least of these..."

[pinacled]

Thank you Pat, for all the verses! I'll have to study them, and their context. Phew! Lots of study.

Don't overwhelm yourself.
Remember to rest.

 

[Norbert L]

...

Also, would Jesus ever want a Messianic community to be started where discipline followed the laws about stoning, etc?

Thank you.

The difference between those laws and today is about who gets to apply them.

I believe it can be possible for a Messianic community to ask for a death penalty under specific circumstances. Someone would have to commit a capital offence against them within a country whose laws specify and allow for a death sentence when the accused if found guilty. Romans 13:4

What is hard to understand is the rational behind those national standards of conduct in subjection to the will of God as their King thousands of years ago 1 Samuel 8:7, compared to that of our own modern westernized governments.

 

[Catherineanne]

Also, would Jesus ever want a Messianic community to be started where discipline followed the laws about stoning, etc?

Do you really have to ask this question?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:1-11&version=NLT

 

[Hoshiyya]

Hello,

My name is Greg Wilson, and I am a tentative sabbath-keeper, seeking to follow God wholly in everything, and there is a passage of scripture that I am concerned about, which is:

--
Matthew 5:17-20, NASB :

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
--

So, in reference to the Law, Jesus says whoever keeps and teaches the least of the commandments shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. I want to be called great, not just to be called great, but to follow God in the whollest way possible.

But, if we were to follow the least of the commandments, (aka all of them!), that would include things like animal sacrifice, and stoning people for certain things. I would need to study the law better to understand these things.

In Hebrews, I know that it says "Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin." (Now that we're forgiven, we don't need a sacrifice for sin). So that seems to go against Jesus telling us to keep and teach the commandment to do sacrifice.

How does this apparent contradiction get worked out, my fellow believers?

Also, would Jesus ever want a Messianic community to be started where discipline followed the laws about stoning, etc?

Thank you.

The advice I give is, look at the Jews in the diaspora. They are a people, but not a state.

Recently, they became a state again, but for the purposes of comparison we should overlook that, since WE don't have the opportunity to become a state until our king comes.

I think that in the Millennium, the death penalties will be enforced.

But our king is not on earth. WHEN he comes to earth he will rule on earth, and enforce all the laws. Until then, we are a stateless people, temporarily scattered among pagan nations like Spain, Germany, India, China, USA, Russia, etc. Like the Jews, we can make "communities" but we don't have states.

If you look closely, Paul in one of his letters makes the argument that animal sacrifice will be reinstituted in the Millennium. How does he do this ?
He says that animal sacrifice never took away sin. Only the sacrifice of Yeshua takes away sin. So if animal sacrifice could be practiced in the past, without taking away sin, then it can just as well be practiced in the future, without taking away sin. It is just as much a ritual as the Last Supper is. It is a ritual that represents spiritual actions. If God wanted it to be done in the past, even though it didn't remove sin, he may just as well command it be done in the future, even though it won't remove sin.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Do you really have to ask this question?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:1-11&version=NLT

Yes, he has to ask this question, as it is a good one.

Stoning/flogging/monetary penalty, and hell, are both punishments from God. You believe in the greater punishment, but not the lesser one ?
God is willing to punish a lot, but not willing to punish with the lesser punishment ?

That's like a father who is willing to punch his child, but not willing to give him a slight smack on the hand.

 

[Greg Wilson]

Don't overwhelm yourself.
Remember to rest.

Good word, Pinacled! : )

 

[Greg Wilson]

What is hard to understand is the rational behind those national standards of conduct in subjection to the will of God as their King thousands of years ago 1 Samuel 8:7, compared to that of our own modern westernized governments.

Thank you Norbert, for your response. Overall, are you saying that the country I live in's government has to be in charge of issuing the death penalty, not a messianic community?
And, could you explain the quote above some more? Thank you.

 

[Greg Wilson]

Do you really have to ask this question?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:1-11&version=NLT

Hello Catherine,

I hear you. The whole concept of grace - yes. However, that story is added in later manuscripts, and is apparently not in earlier ones..

 

[Greg Wilson]

The advice I give is, look at the Jews in the diaspora. They are a people, but not a state.

Recently, they became a state again, but for the purposes of comparison we should overlook that, since WE don't have the opportunity to become a state until our king comes.

I think that in the Millennium, the death penalties will be enforced.

But our king is not on earth. WHEN he comes to earth he will rule on earth, and enforce all the laws. Until then, we are a stateless people, temporarily scattered among pagan nations like Spain, Germany, India, China, USA, Russia, etc. Like the Jews, we can make "communities" but we don't have states.

If you look closely, Paul in one of his letters makes the argument that animal sacrifice will be reinstituted in the Millennium. How does he do this ?
He says that animal sacrifice never took away sin. Only the sacrifice of Yeshua takes away sin. So if animal sacrifice could be practiced in the past, without taking away sin, then it can just as well be practiced in the future, without taking away sin. It is just as much a ritual as the Last Supper is. It is a ritual that represents spiritual actions. If God wanted it to be done in the past, even though it didn't remove sin, he may just as well command it be done in the future, even though it won't remove sin.

Interesting thoughts, Hoshiyya.... So why aren't we practicing animal sacrifice now? Because no temple? It seems just because our king is not on earth doesn't mean we cannot enforce the laws ourselves

It just is troubling, when He says whoever keeps and teaches the least of the commandments,seems like we should be keeping and teaching right now the command to do sacrifice (exodus 20:24) and then later temple sacrifices, maybe.. and even stoning in the appropriate case, God-forbid.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Interesting thoughts, Hoshiyya.... So why aren't we practicing animal sacrifice now? Because no temple? It seems just because our king is not on earth doesn't mean we cannot enforce the laws ourselves

It just is troubling, when He says whoever keeps and teaches the least of the commandments,seems like we should be keeping and teaching right now the command to do sacrifice (exodus 20:24) and then later temple sacrifices, maybe.. and even stoning in the appropriate case, God-forbid.

I have to applaud what I interpret as a great and honest love for the mitzvot evident in your post. We have to be willing to do what he tells us, and I get that willingness from you. It's like you're saying "I'm willing, now how do I put this into practice ?" and I think God loves that more than anything else.

There are multiple reasons we cannot perform animal sacrifice today, and it includes the fact that we don't have a temple, and that we don't have people who can prove their descent from Aharon.

Capital punishment is a holy thing, otherwise God would NOT include it in his plan. All of God's laws and deeds are holy.
However in the diaspora, the Jews have, as a rule, had to replace execution with excommunication from the community. I think, as a rule, the Messianics should abide by the same general idea of where they fit into the gentile host-society as the Jews do.

 

[Greg Wilson]

(in the bible later I think they had to sacrifice just at temple..)

 

[Hoshiyya]

All animal and incense sacrifice was performed in the temple, before that it was in the tabernacle. Before the tabernacle it seems the firstborn son was traditionally the priest of his family, meaning he had the right to make his own altar wherever and to sacrifice. But honestly, the Bible is very sparse in telling us about pre-Mosaic sacrifices.

 

[Greg Wilson]

I have to applaud what I interpret as a great and honest love for the mitzvot evident in your post. We have to be willing to do what he tells us, and I get that willingness from you. It's like you're saying "I'm willing, now how do I put this into practice ?" and I think God loves that more than anything else.

There are multiple reasons we cannot perform animal sacrifice today, and it includes the fact that we don't have a temple, and that we don't have people who can prove their descent from Aharon.

Capital punishment is a holy thing, otherwise God would NOT include it in his plan. All of God's laws and deeds are holy.
However in the diaspora, the Jews have, as a rule, had to replace execution with excommunication from the community. I think, as a rule, the Messianics should abide by the same general idea of where they fit into the gentile host-society as the Jews do.

: ) Thank you. Are mitzvot commandments? I know some hebrew, but not that word. Makes sense about not having the temple for sacrifices, but wouldn't that have been way too many sacrifices to offer, if the whole nation of Israel had to come to the temple to do their sacrifices? I appreciate you dialoging with me! Descendants of Aharon were the levites yes? In charge of doing sacrifices? If so, what about the priesthood changing to Melchizidekan (Jesus) in Hebrews 7:11-12 - "For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also." And, along with that, what is that change of law, if you know?

Thank you. Who are you, if you don't mind me asking? How do you practice your faith? Thanks.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I am more than happy to dialogue with you on this

Yes, Mitzva is a commandment, Mitzvot is the plural in this case.

The descendants of Aaron (Aharon) are those Levites specifically in charge of sacrifice. There's four families of Levites: those from Qohat, those from Gershon, those from Merari, and those from Aharon. The priests and high priests all came from Aharon. The other Levites apparently were responsible for religious construction work, and possibly the choirs.

"wouldn't that have been way too many sacrifices to offer, if the whole nation of Israel had to come to the temple to do their sacrifices?"

The actual logistics of the sacrificial system are not my area of expertise. The way it was done in the past, I think maybe one animal could count for multiple people. Furthermore, not all sins required sacrifices. The majority of sins were atoned for once a year, during the day of atonement, when the High Priest performed a special once-a-year ritual.

Regarding the third temple which will be built in the future, I think the size and scope of it will be such that even larger numbers may be accomodated.

You go on to ask several great questions. The issue of what is really the "priesthood after the order of Melchizedek" is a big issue. I would like to try to adress these questions in a private conversation ?

(Private Messages are called "conversations" CF now)

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Hoshiyya made good comments. You have to take a few things into account when you look at commandments. Primarily you need to look at who it is given to. Some are easy, like being directed at men or women specifically. In the case of stoning, you also have to look at the legal procedures given. When Yeshua was presented the case of a woman caught in adultery, He wrote "Let him without sin throw the first stone." Many people seem to think the message is that you can't make a decision about right or wrong if you have ever committed a sin. What He was really getting at is that those men were performing an illegal trial according to the Torah. Without a proper Torah-based nation of Israel, you can't have a proper trial. Without a proper trial, you can't stone someone.

Also keep in mind that Yeshua taught all the laws fall under the categories of "Love God" or "Love Your Neighbor". Look for one of those as consider what a commandment might mean, and how to apply.

 

[Meowzltov]

It seems to me that you are worrying an awful lot about commandments that you can't obey. Why not focus on those commandments which apply to you that you CAN keep?

 

[Hoshiyya]

I think he's trying to delineate which can be obeyed and which cannot, and to what extent

 

[pinacled]

Cool. So how do we know this is a Nazarite vow?

Nazarite Vow.
Whew thats deep.
Numbers Chapter 6 בְּמִדְבַּר
א וַיְדַבֵּר יְהוָה, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה לֵּאמֹר. 1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying:
ב דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם: אִישׁ אוֹ-אִשָּׁה, כִּי יַפְלִא לִנְדֹּר נֶדֶר נָזִיר--לְהַזִּיר, לַיהוָה. 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: When either man or woman shall clearly utter a vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to consecrate himself unto the LORD,
ג מִיַּיִן וְשֵׁכָר יַזִּיר, חֹמֶץ יַיִן וְחֹמֶץ שֵׁכָר לֹא יִשְׁתֶּה; וְכָל-מִשְׁרַת עֲנָבִים לֹא יִשְׁתֶּה, וַעֲנָבִים לַחִים וִיבֵשִׁים לֹא יֹאכֵל. 3 he shall abstain from wine and strong drink: he shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat fresh grapes or dried.
ד כֹּל, יְמֵי נִזְרוֹ: מִכֹּל אֲשֶׁר יֵעָשֶׂה מִגֶּפֶן הַיַּיִן, מֵחַרְצַנִּים וְעַד-זָג--לֹא יֹאכֵל. 4 All the days of his Naziriteship shall he eat nothing that is made of the grape-vine, from the pressed grapes even to the grapestone.
ה כָּל-יְמֵי נֶדֶר נִזְרוֹ, תַּעַר לֹא-יַעֲבֹר עַל-רֹאשׁוֹ: עַד-מְלֹאת הַיָּמִם אֲשֶׁר-יַזִּיר לַיהוָה, קָדֹשׁ יִהְיֶה--גַּדֵּל פֶּרַע, שְׂעַר רֹאשׁוֹ. 5 All the days of his vow of Naziriteship there shall no razor come upon his head; until the days be fulfilled, in which he consecrateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, he shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow long.
ו כָּל-יְמֵי הַזִּירוֹ, לַיהוָה, עַל-נֶפֶשׁ מֵת, לֹא יָבֹא. 6 All the days that he consecrateth himself unto the LORD he shall not come near to a dead body.
ז לְאָבִיו וּלְאִמּוֹ, לְאָחִיו וּלְאַחֹתוֹ--לֹא-יִטַּמָּא לָהֶם, בְּמֹתָם: כִּי נֵזֶר אֱלֹהָיו, עַל-רֹאשׁוֹ. 7 He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die; because his consecration unto God is upon his head.
ח כֹּל, יְמֵי נִזְרוֹ, קָדֹשׁ הוּא, לַיהוָה. 8 All the days of his Naziriteship he is holy unto the LORD.
ט וְכִי-יָמוּת מֵת עָלָיו בְּפֶתַע פִּתְאֹם, וְטִמֵּא רֹאשׁ נִזְרוֹ--וְגִלַּח רֹאשׁוֹ בְּיוֹם טָהֳרָתוֹ, בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי יְגַלְּחֶנּוּ. 9 And if any man die very suddenly beside him, and he defile his consecrated head, then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.
י וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁמִינִי, יָבִא שְׁתֵּי תֹרִים, אוֹ שְׁנֵי, בְּנֵי יוֹנָה: אֶל-הַכֹּהֵן--אֶל-פֶּתַח, אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד. 10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting.
יא וְעָשָׂה הַכֹּהֵן, אֶחָד לְחַטָּאת וְאֶחָד לְעֹלָה, וְכִפֶּר עָלָיו, מֵאֲשֶׁר חָטָא עַל-הַנָּפֶשׁ; וְקִדַּשׁ אֶת-רֹאשׁוֹ, בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא. 11 And the priest shall prepare one for a sin-offering, and the other for a burnt-offering, and make atonement for him, for that he sinned by reason of the dead; and he shall hallow his head that same day.
יב וְהִזִּיר לַיהוָה אֶת-יְמֵי נִזְרוֹ, וְהֵבִיא כֶּבֶשׂ בֶּן-שְׁנָתוֹ לְאָשָׁם; וְהַיָּמִים הָרִאשֹׁנִים יִפְּלוּ, כִּי טָמֵא נִזְרוֹ. 12 And he shall consecrate unto the LORD the days of his Naziriteship, and shall bring a he-lamb of the first year for a guilt-offering; but the former days shall be void, because his consecration was defiled.
יג וְזֹאת תּוֹרַת, הַנָּזִיר: בְּיוֹם, מְלֹאת יְמֵי נִזְרוֹ, יָבִיא אֹתוֹ, אֶל-פֶּתַח אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד. 13 And this is the law of the Nazirite, when the days of his consecration are fulfilled: he shall bring it unto the door of the tent of meeting;
יד וְהִקְרִיב אֶת-קָרְבָּנוֹ לַיהוָה כֶּבֶשׂ בֶּן-שְׁנָתוֹ תָמִים אֶחָד, לְעֹלָה, וְכַבְשָׂה אַחַת בַּת-שְׁנָתָהּ תְּמִימָה, לְחַטָּאת; וְאַיִל-אֶחָד תָּמִים, לִשְׁלָמִים. 14 and he shall present his offering unto the LORD, one he-lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt-offering, and one ewe-lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin-offering, and one ram without blemish for peace-offerings,
טו וְסַל מַצּוֹת, סֹלֶת חַלֹּת בְּלוּלֹת בַּשֶּׁמֶן, וּרְקִיקֵי מַצּוֹת, מְשֻׁחִים בַּשָּׁמֶן; וּמִנְחָתָם, וְנִסְכֵּיהֶם. 15 and a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and unleavened wafers spread with oil, and their meal-offering, and their drink-offerings.
טז וְהִקְרִיב הַכֹּהֵן, לִפְנֵי יְהוָה; וְעָשָׂה אֶת-חַטָּאתוֹ, וְאֶת-עֹלָתוֹ. 16 And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin-offering, and his burnt-offering.
יז וְאֶת-הָאַיִל יַעֲשֶׂה זֶבַח שְׁלָמִים, לַיהוָה, עַל, סַל הַמַּצּוֹת; וְעָשָׂה, הַכֹּהֵן, אֶת-מִנְחָתוֹ, וְאֶת-נִסְכּוֹ. 17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace-offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread; the priest shall offer also the meal-offering thereof, and the drink-offering thereof.
יח וְגִלַּח הַנָּזִיר, פֶּתַח אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד--אֶת-רֹאשׁ נִזְרוֹ; וְלָקַח, אֶת-שְׂעַר רֹאשׁ נִזְרוֹ, וְנָתַן עַל-הָאֵשׁ, אֲשֶׁר-תַּחַת זֶבַח הַשְּׁלָמִים. 18 And the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the door of the tent of meeting, and shall take the hair of his consecrated head, and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace-offerings.
יט וְלָקַח הַכֹּהֵן אֶת-הַזְּרֹעַ בְּשֵׁלָה, מִן-הָאַיִל, וְחַלַּת מַצָּה אַחַת מִן-הַסַּל, וּרְקִיק מַצָּה אֶחָד; וְנָתַן עַל-כַּפֵּי הַנָּזִיר, אַחַר הִתְגַּלְּחוֹ אֶת-נִזְרוֹ. 19 And the priest shall take the shoulder of the ram when it is sodden, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazirite, after he hath shaven his consecrated head.
כ וְהֵנִיף אוֹתָם הַכֹּהֵן תְּנוּפָה, לִפְנֵי יְהוָה--קֹדֶשׁ הוּא לַכֹּהֵן, עַל חֲזֵה הַתְּנוּפָה וְעַל שׁוֹק הַתְּרוּמָה; וְאַחַר יִשְׁתֶּה הַנָּזִיר, יָיִן. 20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave-offering before the LORD; this is holy for the priest, together with the breast of waving and the thigh of heaving; and after that the Nazirite may drink wine.
כא זֹאת תּוֹרַת הַנָּזִיר, אֲשֶׁר יִדֹּר, קָרְבָּנוֹ לַיהוָה עַל-נִזְרוֹ, מִלְּבַד אֲשֶׁר-תַּשִּׂיג יָדוֹ; כְּפִי נִדְרוֹ, אֲשֶׁר יִדֹּר--כֵּן יַעֲשֶׂה, עַל תּוֹרַת נִזְרוֹ. {פ} 21 This is the law of the Nazirite who voweth, and of his offering unto the LORD for his Naziriteship, beside that for which his means suffice; according to his vow which he voweth, so he must do after the law of his Naziriteship. {P}

 

[Meowzltov]

Cool. So how do we know this is a Nazarite vow?

Because the Nazarite vow is the one where you don't cut your hair for given length of time.

 

[pinacled]

Because the Nazarite vow is the one where you don't cut your hair for given length of time.

Remember Jesus is the School master. Let the Holy Spirit guide you.
Matthew 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.