Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

[patricius79]

There it is. It's not apostolic tradition per se, but Magisterium Tradition that matters. The Magisterium picks and selects from a variety of books and traditions to determine whatever it thinks is binding on believers. If you don't believe me, ask it.

Well, the early Church was obviously Catholic in Tradition, but individual fathers are fallible. So, yes, the Magisterium of the Church defines what is true when there is a question.

That's why Irenaeus said that all the faithful must have recourse to the Succession of Bishops at Rome.

With Mary's Ever-Virginity--we have many great fathers saying that Mary is Ever-Virgin--and and Papacy saying, along with Ecumenical Councils, that that is absolutely true.

 

[justinangel]

Yes, many of us have. I didn't notice the "Apostolic Tradition" there that you apparently did.

By the way, the Early Church Fathers DID support Sola Scriptura, whereas you denied that earlier. So that would be an Apostolic Tradition too although we don't usually associate it with that term.

The Church Fathers were Catholic. That's why you haven't noticed.

No they DIDN'T! The Fathers regarded Scripture as the objective norm of our faith, serving to confirm and preserve the traditional beliefs held by the Church since apostolic time. And for them the Church was the final rule of faith. But we can debate that on an appropriate thread.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

Well, the early Church was obviously Catholic in Tradition, but individual fathers are fallible. So, yes, the Magisterium of the Church defines what is true when there is a question.

That's why Irenaeus said that all the faithful must have recourse to the Succession of Bishops at Rome.

With Mary's Ever-Virginity--we have many great fathers saying that Mary is Ever-Virgin--and and Papacy saying, along with Ecumenical Councils, that that is absolutely true.[/QUOTE]

 

[Albion]

The Church Fathers were Catholic. That's why you haven't noticed.

The Church fathers were non-denominational. That was the era that's often called the time of the "Undivided Church." It was later that the Roman Catholic Church split from the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches, and even later, from the Church of England. All of them are descended from the Undivided Church and, therefore, from the Church Fathers.

The Fathers regarded Scripture as the objective norm of our faith

Sola Scriptura, in other words.

 

[patricius79]

The Church fathers were non-denominational. That was the era that's often called the time of the "Undivided Church." s.

The Church fathers were Catholic. The Church at that time was called " the Catholic Church", just like today, and believed that Rome had unique authority, and that Mary is Ever-Virgin.

They believed that we should "hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter" 2 Thes 2:15, Acts 8:14.

 

[Standing Up]

The Church fathers were Catholic. The Church at that time was called " the Catholic Church",

Not exactly. The definitions changed like this:

first it was-
the church at Smyrna (see Ignatius)
the church at Corinth
the church at Rome (see 1st Clement)
the church at Alexandria
etc

Then it went to the catholic church, like here: "...of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna." from Martyrdom of Polycarp or to paraphrase Ignatius, where Christ is there is the catholic church which is a paraphrase of Christ where 2 or 3 are gathered there am I.

Some time afterwards, the church at Rome decided to differentiate itself, to usurp authority, calling herself the Roman Catholic Church (see Augustine, Leo, etc).

Today, RC tries mightily to convince herself and others that she is the catholic church. But no, she has not abided the traditions, whether oral or written, from apostles.

 

[Standing Up]

That's why Irenaeus said that all the faithful must have recourse to the Succession of Bishops at Rome.

Please quote him saying this.

 

[patricius79]

Please quote him saying this.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. To that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must have recourse, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2).

So according to Irenaeus, the Church is "The Catholic Church", and all the churches must have recourse to the Succession of Bishops in Rome.

Rome teaches that Mary is Ever-Virgin.

 

[patricius79]

Not exactly. The definitions changed like this:

first it was-
the church at Smyrna (see Ignatius)
the church at Corinth
the church at Rome (see 1st Clement)
the church at Alexandria
etc
.

You mean these churches were all called "the Catholic Church.", just like today when I say, "the Catholic Church in Louisville" is a beautiful Church?

That would seem to support the Catholic claims, and Mary's Ever-Virginity.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Church Fathers were Catholic. That's why you haven't noticed.

No they DIDN'T! The Fathers regarded Scripture as the objective norm of our faith, serving to confirm and preserve the traditional beliefs held by the Church since apostolic time. And for them the Church was the final rule of faith. But we can debate that on an appropriate thread.

PAX

You mean these churches were all called "the Catholic Church.", just like today when I say, "the Catholic Church in Louisville" is a beautiful Church?

That would seem to support the Catholic claims, and Mary's Ever-Virginity.

And, referring to the Church in Louisville, one could just as appropriately say it is Orthodox, Evangelical, Baptist, etc. You might want to assume that it merely includes your own particular denomination, but, if so, then, I am most sorry that you do not consider your denomination to be orthodox, evangelical, baptist, etc.

 

[abacabb3]

The Magisterium of the Catholic Church illuminates what are the essentials of the oral Tradition, as opposed to dispensable customs, and where some Church fathers were mistaken.

But, what guarantee do we have that in the Magesterium are actual Apostolic traditions? You said the oral traditions are not written down anywhere, so that means a miracle from God is needed to not only keep the oral traditions accurate, but make the Church accurate in sifting through them and preserving the real ones. How else would it be possible?

For example, the Catholic Church tells us which books are in the Bible...

To be fair, the books of the New Testament were all quoted in detail from the Apostolic Fathers...All the doctrines about Mary were not referred to until centuries later. So, we have good historical evidence that the Scripture was always considered Scripture, but contrary historical evidence that Marian doctrines are actually Apostolic.

 

[justinangel]

The Church fathers were non-denominational. That was the era that's often called the time of the "Undivided Church." It was later that the Roman Catholic Church split from the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches, and even later, from the Church of England. All of them are descended from the Undivided Church and, therefore, from the Church Fathers.

That's not quite how it was and what happened in the first millennium. The Church was called "Catholic" and consisted of 5 patriarchates/bishoprics: Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and finally Constantinople.

This is how the Catholic Church perceived itself by the 4th century:

CANON XXXIX.

'Of the care and power which a Patriarch has over the bishops and archbishops of his patriarchate; and of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome over all.
Let the patriarch consider what things are done by the archbishops and bishops in their provinces; and if he shall find anything done by them otherwise than it should be, let him change it, and order it, as seemeth him fit: for he is the father of all, and they are his sons. And although the archbishop be among the bishops as an elder brother, who hath the care of his brethren, and to whom they owe obedience because he is over them; yet the patriarch is to all those who are under his power, just as he who holds the seat of Rome, is the head and prince of all patriarchs; in-as much as he is first, as was Peter, to whom power is given over all Christian princes, and over all their peoples, as he who is the Vicar of Christ our Lord over all peoples and over the whole Christian Church, and whoever shall contradict this, is excommunicated by the Synod.(1)'
Ecumenical Council of Nicea l

There was no Roman Catholic Church, Oriental Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and Church of England in the first millennium. At the time of the Great Schism between the East and West and in the 16th century, the Catholic Church in England was within the See of Rome's jurisdiction. The Church of England was established by King Henry Vlll. The church in England was separated from Rome when the English Parliament passed the Supremacy Act in 1534 placing the King as the visible head of the Catholic Church in England. Opposition to the Act was punishable by death. So many Catholic bishops and clerics conceded, thereby separating themselves from the Catholic Church and forfeiting their divine authority to administer the sacraments, save baptism. Others, like Bishop John Fisher, refused to swear allegiance to the king and were executed.

Sola Scriptura, in other words.

As the objective norm, Scripture is not the final rule of faith and ultimate judge of Tradition. The idea of Scripture superseding the teaching authority of the Church was foreign to the early Church Fathers. It's something entirely novel beginning with Martin Luther who rejected the authority of the Magisterium. But I give him credit for continuing to believe in the PVM. Anyway, the writings of the ECFs provide references to the Apostolic Succession, to the bishops and guardians of the deposit of faith - Scripture and Tradition - and to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome who was seen as the successor of Peter. Many references make clear that the Church understood itself as having a visible hierarchy which was essential for preserving the integrity of the Catholic faith. These references are made in their apologetic works against the heretical sects and schismatics in Christendom. Nowhere do we find any indication that the faithful disregarded the teaching authority of the Church under the Magisterium dismissing it as the rule of faith. On the contrary, the Church perceived itself as the rule of faith grounded on both Scripture and Tradition which were authoritatively interpreted and taught by the Magisterium of the Church with the Bishop of Rome at its head.

PAX

 

[prodromos]

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. To that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must have recourse, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2).

So according to Irenaeus, the Church is "The Catholic Church", and all the churches must have recourse to the Succession of Bishops in Rome.

Proper interpretation given HERE and HERE, but you've already seen those posts

 

[Albion]

That's not quite how it was and what happened in the first millennium.

Well, yes it is. Lots of different denominations insist that the early church was theirs (of course), but the truth is that the early church was the parent church of most of today's denominations.

The Church was called "Catholic"

And "One," "Holy," and "Apostolic."

All of us who recite the Nicene Creed attest to this, whether we are Lutherans, Methodists, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox Christians, whichever.

 

[Standing Up]

That's not quite how it was and what happened in the first millennium. The Church was called "Catholic" and consisted of 5 patriarchates/bishoprics: Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and finally Constantinople.

This is how the Catholic Church perceived itself by the 4th century:

CANON XXXIX.
Ecumenical Council of Nicea l

Please provide your source. Most only know of 20 canons of Nicea 1.

 

[Standing Up]

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. To that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must have recourse, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2).

So according to Irenaeus, the Church is "The Catholic Church", and all the churches must have recourse to the Succession of Bishops in Rome.

Rome teaches that Mary is Ever-Virgin.

Irenaeus doesn't say we must have recourse to RC. He says the faithful have kept Rome "on track" last sentence of your quote. You are aware that Marcion and Valentinus flourished at Rome, until Polycarp set her straight. The popes failed. Irenaeus studied under Polycarp who studied under John and Philip.

 

[Standing Up]

You mean these churches were all called "the Catholic Church.", just like today when I say, "the Catholic Church in Louisville" is a beautiful Church?

Read my post again. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered, Christ is there. They were called catholic, not (Roman) Catholic.

Again Rome Catholic tries mightily to reinterpret history.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[patricius79]

Well, yes it is. Lots of different denominations insist that the early church was theirs (of course), but the truth is that the early church was the parent church of most of today's denominations.


And "One," "Holy," and "Apostolic."

All of us who recite the Nicene Creed attest to this, whether we are Lutherans, Methodists, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox Christians, whichever.

But the early Church was called "the Catholic Church", which is what the Church is still called today. As for Protestantism--which began in the 1500s--the Reformers also agreed with the Catholic Church that Mary is Ever-Virgin.

Unless I'm mistaken, so do the Orthodox (the Eastern fathers, such as Athanasius and Cyril and Basil and the two Gregories did).

 

[patricius79]

Read my post again. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered, Christ is there. They were called catholic, not (Roman) Catholic.

Again Rome Catholic tries mightily to reinterpret history.

That's why we call the Church "the Catholic Church". And like the early Catholic Church, we believe Mary is Ever-Virgin, and that Rome holds the presidency.