Exodus 35:1-3

[Soyeong]

Exactly which commands in the Torah are part and parcel with the covenant God made with the Gentiles on Mount Sinai?

God didn't make a covenant with Gentiles on Mount Sinai. The covenant was a serious agreement to obey God's commands, but it is still good to obey God even without a serious agreement to do so. The commands are holy, righteous, and good, and they reveal God's holy, righteous, and good standard, which we should always seek to live in accordance with.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God didn't make a covenant with Gentiles on Mount Sinai. The covenant was a serious agreement to obey God's commands, but it is still good to obey God even without a serious agreement to do so. The commands are holy, righteous, and good, and they reveal God's holy, righteous, and good standard, which we should always seek to live in accordance with.

You are quite correct that the Gentiles have nothing to do with any of the commandments given by God to His people, Israel, on Mount Sinai. There is, therefore, no more particular reason Gentiles should engage in circumcision than they should offer oblations and sacrifices in the Temple through the Levitical priesthood, would you not agree?

 

[Soyeong]

The entire command is:

Exo 35:2-3 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day you
shall have a holy sabbath of solemn rest to the LORD; whoever does
any work on it shall be put to death; you shall kindle no fire in all your
habitations on the sabbath day.

Apparently, making a fire was considered work.

Today, Orthodox Jews will not turn on an electric light or an electric stove because it is the modern replacement of the ancient fire. So, if you have a bathroom without a window, turn the light on before the Sabbath and don't turn it off until after the sabbath. (I have a friend who irritated her relatives in a kibbutz in Israel because she turned off the light on the bathroom.)

Yes, I am aware of that custom, but whether they have a correct interpretation of the law's intent is another issue. Jesus said he came to explain how to correctly understand and follow the law and part of that involved cutting through the mountains of traditions that Jews had for how they thought the law should be followed.

 

[Soyeong]

You are quite correct that the Gentiles have nothing to do with any of the commandments given by God to His people, Israel, on Mount Sinai.

You're mixing up the need to follow God's commands with the need to be part of a covenant that requires following God's commands. Gentiles should not join the Old Covenant, but Gentiles should still obey God.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time Timothy was was a child, the NT had not been written, so the only Scriptures Paul could be referring to here is the OT. So the law is profitable for training us in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. When 1 John 3:10 says that we should practice righteousness, that means to act in accordance with what the law instructs. When 1 Peter 1:13-16 says that we should have a holy conduct, we should again look to how the law defines that to understand how it means we should behave, starting with where verse 16 is quoting from.

1 Peter 2:8-9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This is pretty much the same thing that God said to Israel in Deuteronomy, so Gentiles are being included as part of God's people and should act accordingly.

There is, therefore, no more particular reason Gentiles should engage in circumcision than they should offer oblations and sacrifices in the Temple through the Levitical priesthood, would you not agree?

Again, there never was a requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised, so that is in accordance with the law, not against it. There is a superior priesthood now, but Paul still continued to offer sacrifices, keep the Sabbath, the rest of God's Feasts, and we will also be keeping those things during the Millennial Reign.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You're mixing up the need to follow God's commands with the need to be part of a covenant that requires following God's commands. Gentiles should not join the Old Covenant, but Gentiles should still obey God.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time Timothy was was a child, the NT had not been written, so the only Scriptures Paul could be referring to here is the OT. So the law is profitable for training us in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. When 1 John 3:10 says that we should practice righteousness, that means to act in accordance with what the law instructs. When 1 Peter 1:13-16 says that we should have a holy conduct, we should again look to how the law defines that to understand how it means we should behave, starting with where verse 16 is quoting from.

1 Peter 2:8-9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This is pretty much the same thing that God said to Israel in Deuteronomy, so Gentiles are being included as part of God's people and should act accordingly.



Again, there never was a requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised, so that is in accordance with the law, not against it. There is a superior priesthood now, but Paul still continued to offer sacrifices, keep the Sabbath, the rest of God's Feasts, and we will also be keeping those things during the Millennial Reign.

Paul also continued to practice circumcision (e.g. he circumcised Timothy) but taught against it. Does that mean that because Paul practiced it, it remains a necessity for Gentiles? Will all men be circumcised during the Millenial Reign?

 

[Soyeong]

Paul also continued to practice circumcision (e.g. he circumcised Timothy) but taught against it. Does that mean that because Paul practiced it, it remains a necessity for Gentiles? Will all men be circumcised during the Millenial Reign?

Again, the Bible never instructs all Gentiles to become circumcised, nor does it list a process by which a Gentile could become a Jewish proselyte, so all of that is man-made oral tradition. Paul saw value in circumcision, but he was against the idea that Gentiles needed to be required to become Jewish proselytes and that they needed to keep all of the written and their oral laws in order to be saved. Circumcision never was a necessity for all Gentiles and it never will be, so it will only be a requirement during the Millennial Reign if there are Gentiles who want to eat of the Passover Lamb and circumcision of the heart doesn't count toward that requirement.

 

[listed]

God didn't make a covenant with Gentiles on Mount Sinai. The covenant was a serious agreement to obey God's commands, but it is still good to obey God even without a serious agreement to do so. The commands are holy, righteous, and good, and they reveal God's holy, righteous, and good standard, which we should always seek to live in accordance with.

What is obedience to God? Is it observing the law given by Moses, or is it keeping the commandments of Jesus? I have Scripture saying it is keeping the commandments of Jesus. I have Scripture saying Jesus did not give the law.

 

[listed]

Yes, I am aware of that custom, but whether they have a correct interpretation of the law's intent is another issue. Jesus said he came to explain how to correctly understand and follow the law and part of that involved cutting through the mountains of traditions that Jews had for how they thought the law should be followed.

Where did Jesus say such a thing?

 

[listed]

You're mixing up the need to follow God's commands with the need to be part of a covenant that requires following God's commands. Gentiles should not join the Old Covenant, but Gentiles should still obey God.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time Timothy was was a child, the NT had not been written, so the only Scriptures Paul could be referring to here is the OT. So the law is profitable for training us in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. When 1 John 3:10 says that we should practice righteousness, that means to act in accordance with what the law instructs. When 1 Peter 1:13-16 says that we should have a holy conduct, we should again look to how the law defines that to understand how it means we should behave, starting with where verse 16 is quoting from.

1 Peter 2:8-9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This is pretty much the same thing that God said to Israel in Deuteronomy, so Gentiles are being included as part of God's people and should act accordingly.



Again, there never was a requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised, so that is in accordance with the law, not against it. There is a superior priesthood now, but Paul still continued to offer sacrifices, keep the Sabbath, the rest of God's Feasts, and we will also be keeping those things during the Millennial Reign.

Why follow the commands of the covenant if you are not going to be part of that covenant? I see no benefit.

What is obedience to God for the Christian? Is it to keep the Sabbath?

 

[Soyeong]

What is obedience to God? Is it observing the law given by Moses, or is it keeping the commandments of Jesus? I have Scripture saying it is keeping the commandments of Jesus. I have Scripture saying Jesus did not give the law.

Do you suppose that Jesus was in disagreement with the Father or taught or did anything apart from His will?

 

[Soyeong]

Where did Jesus say such a thing?

That's what it meant to fulfill the law.

 

[listed]

You're mixing up the need to follow God's commands with the need to be part of a covenant that requires following God's commands. Gentiles should not join the Old Covenant, but Gentiles should still obey God.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time Timothy was was a child, the NT had not been written, so the only Scriptures Paul could be referring to here is the OT. So the law is profitable for training us in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. When 1 John 3:10 says that we should practice righteousness, that means to act in accordance with what the law instructs. When 1 Peter 1:13-16 says that we should have a holy conduct, we should again look to how the law defines that to understand how it means we should behave, starting with where verse 16 is quoting from.

1 Peter 2:8-9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

This is pretty much the same thing that God said to Israel in Deuteronomy, so Gentiles are being included as part of God's people and should act accordingly.



Again, there never was a requirement for all Gentiles to become circumcised, so that is in accordance with the law, not against it. There is a superior priesthood now, but Paul still continued to offer sacrifices, keep the Sabbath, the rest of God's Feasts, and we will also be keeping those things during the Millennial Reign.

Why are you using the Scripture to basically deny the New Testament (works of Paul) is the Scripture according to Peter.

 

[listed]

Again, the Bible never instructs all Gentiles to become circumcised, nor does it list a process by which a Gentile could become a Jewish proselyte, so all of that is man-made oral tradition. Paul saw value in circumcision, but he was against the idea that Gentiles needed to be required to become Jewish proselytes and that they needed to keep all of the written and their oral laws in order to be saved. Circumcision never was a necessity for all Gentiles and it never will be, so it will only be a requirement during the Millennial Reign if there are Gentiles who want to eat of the Passover Lamb and circumcision of the heart doesn't count toward that requirement.

All Gentiles participating in the covenant issued at Sinai must be circumcised according to the law.

 

[listed]

Do you suppose that Jesus was in disagreement with the Father or taught or did anything apart from His will?

Do you suppose my commandments and my father's commandments are the same thing?

 

[listed]

That's what it meant to fulfill the law.

How does that answer my question? You said Jesus came to explain the law.
Are Christians required to fulfill the law?

 

[Soyeong]

Why follow the commands of the covenant if you are not going to be part of that covenant? I see no benefit.

If God had made no covenants with us and had simply left instructions somewhere for how to live rightly, it would at least be a very good idea to live accordingly. But the law instructs us about what sin is and sin puts us in bondange and separates us from God. As Christians we are told not to practice sin, but to practice righteousness, which is the opposite of sin and in accordance with the law.

What is obedience to God for the Christian? Is it to keep the Sabbath?

It involves keeping the Sabbath.

 

[Soyeong]

How does that answer my question? You said Jesus came to explain the law.

To fulfill the law was a rabbinic term that meant to interpret the law in a way that added meaning to it, filled it up with meaning, to act in a way that demonstrates a correct understanding of it. So this is the meaning of Jesus' words when he said that he came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17-19).

Are Christians required to fulfill the law?

Yes. Every Sabbath a rabbi in a synagogue would take a Torah scroll to Moses' seat and fulfill the law by interpreting and explaining how it should be understood. Our church leaders likewise fulfill the law when they explain how we should obey God. We fulfill the law when we obey it through demonstrating our love for God and for our neighbor.

 

[listed]

If God had made no covenants with us and had simply left instructions somewhere for how to live rightly, it would at least be a very good idea to live accordingly. But the law instructs us about what sin is and sin puts us in bondange and separates us from God. As Christians we are told not to practice sin, but to practice righteousness, which is the opposite of sin and in accordance with the law.



It involves keeping the Sabbath.

Not under the only covenant that provides eternal ife.

 

[Soyeong]

Not under the only covenant that provides eternal ife.

1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

 

[listed]

To fulfill the law was a rabbinic term that meant to interpret the law in a way that added meaning to it, filled it up with meaning, to act in a way that demonstrates a correct understanding of it. So this is the meaning of Jesus' words when he said that he came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17-19).



Yes. Every Sabbath a rabbi in a synagogue would take a Torah scroll to Moses' seat and fulfill the law by interpreting and explaining how it should be understood. Our church leaders likewise fulfill the law when they explain how we should obey God. We fulfill the law when we obey it through demonstrating our love for God and for our neighbor.

You may snucker someone else with that bull slinging. It does not work with me. Fulfill means to complete. I can not find any definition that says it means to explain.