The snare of devotion to Mary.

[narnia59]

What I am hearing from various Catholic individuals ranges from the idea of asking a friend to pray for you. The concept is that of asking another human being to pray for you. At the other extreme we have the model of a postmaster directing millions of prayers simultaneously - a feat which no human being could ever imagine performing. Thus, we have an individual with superhuman abilities and certainly not just a chum that we ask to pray for us.

They could certainly perform this 'feat' if they had no constraints of time. Do you believe those who have stepped into the eternity of heaven are constrained by time?

CS Lewis addresses that very same "dilemma" some seemed to have about God in "Mere Christianity":

In the last chapter I had to touch on the subject of prayer, and while that is still fresh in your mind and my own, I should like to deal with the difficulty that some people find about the whole idea of prayer. A man put it to me by saying “I can believe God all right, but what I cannot swallow is the idea of Him attending to several hundred million human beings who are all addressing him at the same moment.” And I have found that quite a lot of people feel this.

Now, the first thing to notice is that the whole sting of it comes in the words at the same moment. Most of us can imagine God attending to any number of applicants if only they came one by one and He had an endless time to do it in. So what is really at the back of this difficulty is the idea of God having to fit too many things into one moment of time.

Well that is if course what happens to us. Our life comes to us moment by moment. One moment disappears before the next comes along: and there is room for very little in each. That is what Time is like. And of course you and I tend to take it for granted that this Time series – this arrangement of past, present and future – is not simply the way life comes to us but the way all things really exist. We tend to assume that the whole universe and God Himself are always moving on from past to future just as we do. But many learned men do not agree with that. It was the Theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in Time at all: later the Philosophers took it over: and now some of the scientists are doing the same.

Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life does not consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten-thirty – and every other moment from the beginning of the world is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has all eternity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames.

So it seems to me that you are assuming that those in heaven are always moving on from past to future just like we do. If that's the case, then of course no human being could do that. If they have all eternity to do so, then it's not a problem for a human being at all. The problem is not that the Catholic view attributes superhuman abilities to mere humans. The problem is the opposing view constrains those who have stepped into the eternity of heaven with earth-bound limitations of time.

 

[Albion]

Albion, Jesus would not be 'the Christ' if He was upset with us asking His Mother to pray for us.

That's a fond yet illogical theory. Jesus must be all that we'd expect in your average middle-class American husband and father, huh, and nothing more or less than that?? It's rationalism, that's all.

If it were as you say, the New Testament would show him being a dutiful, generous, deferential son and close to his mother throughout life. But as I've pointed out before, the Gospel record shows that that's anything BUT the case. Look for yourself.

 

[patricius79]

In response to the OP, yes, the Mother of God's intercession is necessary to salvation, and devotion to her is necessary for those who have reasonable chance to have such devotion. Likewise the Eucharist is necessary for salvation for those who have a chance to partake in it.

That's a fond yet illogical theory. Jesus must be all that we'd expect in your average middle-class American husband and father, huh, and nothing more or less than that?? It's rationalism, that's all.

If it were as you say, the New Testament would show him being a dutiful, generous, deferential son and close to his mother throughout life. But as I've pointed out before, the Gospel record shows that that's anything BUT the case. Look for yourself.

It sounds like you may believe that Jesus--who came to fulfill the law--was not dutiful toward his own mother who conceived him. Is that correct?

 

[FireDragon76]

It's amazing Protestants focus so much on Mary... there is some questionable theological baggage in Roman Catholicism, but the popular practices of invoking the saints or praying for the departed should be the least of the worries. The Marian beliefs are some of the least important to the real issues with Rome, it's a sideshow for the theologically ignorant.

You'ld be better off discussing the rampant clericalism that still exists in the Roman Church (which in some cases contributes to the priestly abuse, as was noted years ago in Ireland), the popular piety often being in tension with that clericalism.

 

[Albion]

It's amazing Protestants focus so much on Mary... there is some questionable theological baggage in Roman Catholicism, but the popular practices of invoking the saints or praying for the departed should be the least of the worries. The Marian beliefs are some of the least important to the real issues with Rome, it's a sideshow for the theologically ignorant.

I find this an odd comment since it's the Roman Catholics here who keep the issue alive by constantly claiming that "non-Catholics" don't "honor" Mary enough by, for example, not always including the word "Blessed" along with Mary when speaking of her. Ridiculous, yes, but true.

IMO, you make some good and welcome points in the rest of your post, however.

 

[patricius79]

It's amazing Protestants focus so much on Mary... there is some questionable theological baggage in Roman Catholicism, but the popular practices of invoking the saints or praying for the departed should be the least of the worries. The Marian beliefs are some of the least important to the real issues with Rome, it's a sideshow for the theologically ignorant.

You'ld be better off discussing the rampant clericalism that still exists in the Roman Church (which in some cases contributes to the priestly abuse, as was noted years ago in Ireland), the popular piety often being in tension with that clericalism.

This thread is not about abuses by Catholics or Protestants, but about the Mother of God's role in the salvation of every person.

 

[justinangel]

Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces are opinions, but not required beliefs.

These Marian designations represent more than theological opinions theological opinions; they constitute teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium. Whenever a pope intends to teach on matters of faith and morals in his official capacity of universal shepherd of the Church, he is sealed with the guaranty of the Holy Spirit. He possesses this seal even when he doesn't explicitly define the faith of the Church and in effect defines dogma. While not all papal teachings are de fide in character, they are nonetheless true, since they are derived in some measure from the deposit of faith. The papal teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium are classified as non-infallible, not because they are potentially false, but rather could be in need of revision pending further discernment and reflection. If a teaching of the OM happens to contain an error, it is not so grave as to lead the Church off the path of salvation. Theologians, on the other hand, propose ideas in a private capacity. What they essentially offer are their own individual opinions which are fallible, for they do not possess the seal of the Holy Spirit as the popes do in their divine office. As a result, the errors they might commit in their propositions are unlimited and could be so serious as to jeopardize the salvation of the faithful.

Thus infallible papal teachings do not strictly rely on verbal formulas. The intentions of the pope to teach the faithful in the exercise of the divine office of universal shepherd is sufficient to guarantee the truth of the teaching by the seal of the Holy Spirit, notwithstanding insignificant errors of human judgment in particular viewpoints. What renders the papal teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium infallible, or more precisely certainly true, is not only the popes' supreme authority to explain doctrines on matters of faith and morals to be held by the whole Church, but also the character of their documents, their frequent repetition of the same doctrines, and their manner of speaking. Religious submission of mind and will (religious assent) must be shown to the Ordinary Magisterium even when a pope is not speaking ex cathedra (cf.Vatican ll, 25).


'Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (c£ Gal 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she "lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth" (Lumen Gentium, No. 58) … as she was in a special way close to the Cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary's role as co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son. – Mary entered, in a way all her own, into the one mediation "between God and men" which is the mediation of the man Christ Jesus [1 Tim2:5]. [W]e must say that through this fullness of grace and supernatural life she was especially predisposed to cooperation with Christ, the one Mediator of human salvation. And such cooperation is precisely this mediation subordinated to the mediation of Christ. In Mary's case we have a special and exceptional mediation …'
Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Redemptoris Mater

'Nothing seems more appropriate and valuable to Us than to have the prayers of the whole Christian family rise to the Mother of God, who is invoked as the Queen of Peace, begging her to pour forth abundant gifts of her maternal goodness in midst of so many great trials and hardships. We want constant and devout prayers to be offered to her whom We declared Mother of the Church, its spiritual parent, during the celebration of the Second Vatican Council, thereby winning the applause of the Fathers and of the Catholic world, and confirming a point of traditional doctrine. For the Mother of the Saviour is, as St. Augustine teaches, "surely the mother of His members," and St. Anselm, to mention only one other, agrees with him in these words: "What could ever be deemed more suitable than for you to be the mother of those whose father and brother Christ deigned to become?" She was called "most truly the mother of the Church" by Our predecessor Leo XIII. Hence We have good reason to place our trust in her in the midst of this terrible disorder.'
Pope Paul Vl, Encyclical Christi Matri

'Besides, the Blessed Virgin possessed, after Christ, not only the highest degree of excellence and perfection, but also a share in that influence by which He, her Son and our Redeemer, is rightly said to reign over the minds and wills of men. For if through His Humanity the divine Word performs miracles and gives graces, if He uses His Sacraments and Saints as instruments for the salvation of men, why should He not make use of the role and work of His most holy Mother in imparting to us the fruits of redemption? "With a heart that is truly a mother's," to quote again Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, "does she approach the problem of our salvation, and is solicitous for the whole human race; made Queen of heaven and earth by the Lord, exalted above all choirs of angels and saints, and standing at the right hand of her only a Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother's prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused." On this point another of Our Predecessors of happy memory, Leo XIII, has said that an "almost immeasurable" power has been given Mary in the distribution of graces; St. Pius X adds that she fills this office "as by the right of a mother."
Pope Pius Xll, Encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam

'Hence the ever united life and labors of the Son and the Mother which permit the application to both of the words of the Psalmist: ‘My life is wasted with grief and my years in sighs.’ When the supreme hour of the Son came, beside the cross of Jesus there stood Mary, His Mother, not merely occupied in contemplating the cruel spectacle, but rejoicing that her only Son was offered for the salvation of mankind; and so entirely participating in His Passion that, if it had been possible ‘she would have gladly borne all the torments that her Son underwent.’
From this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary "she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world" (Eadmer, De Excellentia Virg. Mariæ, c. 9) and dispensatrix of all the gifts that our Savior purchased for us by his death and by his blood.'
Pope Pius X, Encyclical Ad Diem Illum

'The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.'
Pope Leo Xlll, Encyclical Iucunda Semper Expactatione

These Marian titles contain corollaries of teachings which belong to the deposit of faith. They are connected as far back to the teachings of the early Church Fathers who bore testimony to the Church's perception of Mary as our spiritual mother, the new Eve, who participated with Jesus, the new Adam, in regaining the life of grace for the whole human race. The early Church's understanding of Mary's prerogative to prayerfully intercede for us is manifested in the prayers and supplications offered to her, especially during the era of the Great Persecutions. “We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God. Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us from all dangers, O ever glorious and blessed Virgin" (Sub Tuum Praesidium: c. 250 A.D.). In the Roman catacombs of St. Agnes there are frescoes of Mary engaged in the act of prayer which signify her powerful intercessory ability to mediate divine grace on the Church's behalf. These signs of Marian devotion in the life of the early Church are monuments of sacred Tradition erected by the mind of the faithful (sensus fidelium). Infallibilty extends to the whole Church as one corporate mystical body under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as Christ intended when he established his Church on Peter and the Apostles.

The titles Mediatrix of Grace and co-Redemptrix are terms that represent the full spectrum of the Church's theological understanding of Mary's role as spiritual mother and Mother of the Church. They embrace the traditional belief that at the outset in giving birth to Jesus, Mary has communicated to us the life of grace that allows us to become adopted children of God. The Church in Mediaeval time viewed her as "The neck of the Mystical Body." I suppose in our time we could say that Mary channels signal graces to the mystical body from Christ, the Head of the body which is his Church, just as the brain sends neurological signals to the members of our physical bodies through the neck and spinal cord. Initially Mary became our spiritual mother at the Annunciation when she freely consented to become the mother of our Lord so that the Source of all grace would come into the world. Mary's fiat was her first act of mediation on the world's behalf. St. Pope Pius X wrote in his Encyclical Ad Deim Illum that "Mary, bearing in her own womb the Saviour, may be said to have borne also those whose life was contained in the life of the Saviour. All of us, therefore ... have come forth from the womb of Mary as a body united to its head. Hence, in a spiritual and mystical sense, we are called children of Mary, and she is mother of us all." It is as 'the spiritual mother of the living' (the second Eve) and Mother of the Church that she both natures and nurtures her children. St. Clement of Alexandria taught that the milk she nourishes us with is the word for our childhood. Hence, Mary did not only give birth to the Mystical Body of Christ, but since she did, she continually intercedes in Heaven in obtaining graces for her spiritual children to lead them to her divine Son. She does so also by having shared in the sufferings of her Son on Calvary where she is given to us by Jesus as spiritual mother of all his disciples and the entire human race (cf. Jn 19:26) The Church is said to have been born at the moment when the blood and water flowed from our Lord's side after it was pierced by the soldier's lance. It was then that Simeon's prophecy concerning Mary was fulfilled: "And your own soul a sword shall pierce" (Lk 2:35).

These titles are attributed to Mary not solely because she physically gave birth to our Lord and Saviour, but because she cooperated morally in her Son's redemptive work in a secondary and dependent way, especially when she intimately united herself to the sacrifice of the cross by her motherly sorrow. In the words of Pope Benedict XV: "In uniting herself to the Passion and Death of her Son, she suffered almost unto death; as far as it depended on her, she immolated her Son, so that it can be said that with Him she redeemed the world." Mary made temporal satisfaction to God for the sins of the world along with her Son's eternal satisfaction by being closely united to him in her perfect conformity of will, her humility, poverty of spirit, and interior suffering. She offered to God what the Son had offered to the Father in his humanity to render the oblation pleasing and acceptable to Him. Mary's propitiatory act was of finite value and depended on the act of her Son which had infinite value. Mary made a satisfaction which it was fitting God should accept; since she suffered on account of her love for God whom the sins of the world offended, because of the love for her Son who suffered and died for our sins, and out of her love for us whom sin has spiritually destroyed. Similarly the Son repaired the offense offered to God in his humanity, not by right of friendship - but in strict justice. The offense we offer to God when we mortally sin is of infinite proportion, for God is infinite in His essence. So only a propitiatory act of infinite value could repair the offense humanity offers to God. And by Christ's eternal reparation, our temporal acts of reparation are made possible. In order to live with Christ, we must die with Christ (cf. Rom 6:8). Mary's act of reparation which required a mother's sorrow for her Son, a perfect love for God, and a perfect hatred for sin benefited the entire human race. Jesus chose not to die on the cross for our sins unless his mother stood at the foot of it (cf. Col 1:24). Along with Mary, we must be united with our Lord in his act of redemption if we ourselves hope to be saved.

Testimony from Tradition

"And whereas Eve had disobeyed God, Mary was persuaded to obey God, that the Virgin Mary might become advocate (advocata) of the virgin Eve."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]

"With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world"
Ephraem, Syri opera graeca et latine, v. 3 [A.D. 373]

"Hail you who acceptably intercede as a Mediatrix for mankind."
Antipater of Bostra [A.D. 431]

“Hail Mary Theotokos, venerable treasure of the whole world, light unextinguished, crown of virginity, scepter of orthodoxy, indestructible temple, which contains the uncontainable…it is through you that the Holy Trinity is glorified and adored, through you, the precious cross is venerated and adored throughout the whole world, through you that heaven is in gladness, that angels and archangels rejoice, that demons are put to flight, through you that the tempter, the devil is cast down from heaven, through you that the fallen creature is raised up to heaven, through you that all creation, once imprisoned in idolatry, has reached knowledge of the truth, that the faithful obtain baptism and the oil of joy, churches have been founded in the whole world, that peoples are led to conversion.”
St. Cyril of Alexandria, Homily lV, Council of Ephesus [A.D. 431]

"The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries."
Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 [ante A.D. 450]

"Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God."
Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291 [ante A.D. 560]

"Mary the Ever-Virgin -- radiant with divine light and full of grace, mediatrix first through her supernatural birth and now because of the intercession of her maternal assistance -- be crowned with never ending blessings ...seeking balance and fittingness in all things, we should make our way honestly, as sons of light."
Germanus of Constantinople, Homily on the Liberation of Constantinople, 23 [ante A.D. 733]

"O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes Mother of the Creator."
Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary's Nativity [ante A.D. 740]

PAX

 

[Tallguy88]

You know I made that post 9 months ago, right?

 

[FireDragon76]

I find this an odd comment since it's the Roman Catholics here who keep the issue alive by constantly claiming that "non-Catholics" don't "honor" Mary enough by, for example, not always including the word "Blessed" along with Mary when speaking of her. Ridiculous, yes, but true.

She's the object of pro/anti catholic polemics. That is true even for Roman Catholics. The Hail Mary after all was not lengthened until after Trent had anathematized the Protestants. "Oh yeah, you don't want Mary, well... we'll show you!" Meanwhile, substantive engagement with the real issues is ignored.

 

[justinangel]

You know I made that post 9 months ago, right?

Isn't this thread still open?

 

[patricius79]

She's the object of pro/anti catholic polemics. That is true even for Roman Catholics. The Hail Mary after all was not lengthened until after Trent had anathematized the Protestants. "Oh yeah, you don't want Mary, well... we'll show you!" Meanwhile, substantive engagement with the real issues is ignored.

what do you see as the real issues?

 

[FireDragon76]

what do you see as the real issues?

the nature of religious authority

 

[patricius79]

the nature of religious authority

That would be off-topic.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That would be off-topic.

Not necessarily. We are discussing a topic which divides Christians based upon the authority they trust for truth. Some of us trust the Bible and believe that, at worst, it states nothing concerning the marital relations of Joseph and Mary and, at best, it convincingly states that they had other children after the birth of Jesus Christ. Others of us trust their denominational leadership rather than the Bible or, at best, place the Bible within that leadership structure and refuse to recognize any possible contradictions.

 

[patricius79]

Not necessarily. We are discussing a topic which divides Christians based upon the authority they trust for truth. Some of us trust the Bible and believe that, at worst, it states nothing concerning the marital relations of Joseph and Mary and, at best, it convincingly states that they had other children after the birth of Jesus Christ. Others of us trust their denominational leadership rather than the Bible or, at best, place the Bible within that leadership structure and refuse to recognize any possible contradictions.

The Bible teaches that we should hold fast to both the written and oral traditions (2 Thes 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2, Acts 8:14, Jn 8:26)

The written traditions say that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our God. And the oral tradition says that she is the highest of all creatures, the Ark of the Covenant, the Queen of Heaven, and the Immaculate Conception.

 

[FireDragon76]

Some of us trust the Bible and believe that, at worst, it states nothing concerning the marital relations of Joseph and Mary and, at best, it convincingly states that they had other children after the birth of Jesus Christ.

A conclusion reached through induction, which is fallible reasoning. It's like saying "I have only seen white swans, therefore a black one does not exist".

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Bible teaches that we should hold fast to both the written and oral traditions (2 Thes 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2, Acts 8:14, Jn 8:26)

The written traditions say that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, our God. And the oral tradition says that she is the highest of all creatures, the Ark of the Covenant, the Queen of Heaven, and the Immaculate Conception.

The difficulty, of course, is that nobody has the slightest idea what was actually in any oral tradition because, being oral, it was never written or recorded for posterity. Hence, we have multiple different Traditional Churches with just as many Oral Traditions. If you can produce any written record of any of these Oral Traditions dating from the lifetime of the Apostles then you would be guilty of inventing an oxymoron - a written oral tradition.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A conclusion reached through induction, which is fallible reasoning. It's like saying "I have only seen white swans, therefore a black one does not exist".

That would be true if there was no evidence for black swans or any indication of them. instead, what we have are three independent writers of the Gospels who, in five explicit passages, state that Jesus had a mother - and brothers - and sisters - and even go so far as to name the brothers.

 

[FireDragon76]

That would be true if there was no evidence for black swans or any indication of them. instead, what we have are three independent writers of the Gospels who, in five explicit passages, state that Jesus had a mother - and brothers - and sisters - and even go so far as to name the brothers.

Yes, but it never says where the brothers came from. And the other textual evidence objecting to the doctrine of the ever-virginity of Mary can be dismissed as ignorance of Greek idiom.

Furthermore, there is evidence in John that Jesus was Mary's only son. Else he would not have given her to John for her care, he would have given her to one of his brothers, as would be the custom in that society. Mary was without a husband, after all, and the responsibility of her family. This passage makes almost no sense interpreted any other way.

 

[Rhamiel]

or why she reacted so oddly when the Angel told her she would have a son
"how can it be when I have not known a man?"

most engaged young women would be expecting to have a child eventually