Vanity Fair Cover: Caitlyn (Bruce) Jenner

[ananda]

If I understand the whole concept correctly, would not the consciousness endeavor to maintain control over the rest of the whole being, even the physical? What I'm getting at is, Is it possible that perhaps the underlying impetus for a genetically male individual developing female-like structures in the brain is from the consciousness? Would not gender be more of an element of the consciousness, rather than an element of the mind? It seems to be for me. And from the many and varied discussions I've had with other transsexuals in the past, gender seems to be deeper within the being than just in the mind. Irrefutably, it is far deeper than the crotch.

IMO, for the vast majority of people, the consciousness is intimately entangled with the brain/mind and with the inputs to the brain/mind (five senses). This is the result of childhood training - whether advertently or inadvertently. With that said, the consciousness often passively allows the mind to control the whole being (and delusionally identifies with the mind), like an owner (consciousness) who allows himself to be dragged along all over the place on a leash with an untrained, wild dog (the mind). Consciousness-entanglement with the material prevents the full power of the consciousness from being realized.

Consciousness possesses no gender; when one approaches high levels of meditation where the consciousness "disconnects" from the mind, one loses gender identity. This corresponds with both Christian and Buddhist teachings (no gender in the heavens).

I'm not saying gender isn't "real," because it is. It is real on the material plane of existence, which is discarded upon death (or realized before death, through the meditative process). All I am considering is that it is - to me - unskillful to focus on changing the body instead of taking the opportunity to train the mind and elevate the consciousness.

 

[SuperCloud]

I hope I'm not being a pain (or sounding argumentative or anything.....just trying to understand). *This* is where I get hung up (gender roles)....because I don't quite buy into things like "women are the nurturers....men are the stoic and reasonable ones...etc". I believe some men are gifted to be wonderful stay-at-home dads.....women can be brilliant chemical engineers...etc--so the idea of gender roles built into our psyche isn't quite something I'm on board with.

Do you mean something different than my examples (Stephanie)?

Okay, I do like boxing and I enjoy playing sports like tackle football. But if knowing how to fix cars, do math well, or solve chemistry problems makes a person a woman, then I guess I'm a woman (even though I'm a man).

 

[Smidlee]

No matter what you say or think you know, that position will always be demonstrated as wrong by evidence. It is unfortunate that you do not possess the ability to understand, nor want to.

I believe people understand more than you would like. As the Unabomber noted years ago you got to do something extreme to be notice. (he killed people) Bruce Jenner would not have made news as himself. A cartoon 6 years ago joked that Bruce Jenner was a woman. Bruce Jenner is in the news for being abnormal and very likely got the idea from the cartoon. He will make millions off of this. People will do extreme things just to get attention.
Pretty much everyone I heard mention this came the same conclusion.

 

[rturner76]

No matter what you say or think you know, that position will always be demonstrated as wrong by evidence. It is unfortunate that you do not possess the ability to understand, nor want to.

You are correct that we are what we are. Maybe you see yourself as nothing more than your crotch, but I don't. There is so much more. And there is direct observational evidence that transsexuals ARE what they say they are. There's too much evidence to ignore that their gender is real, and just as they state it to be. If their sex aligned with it, there would be no problem. The whole point is that their sex and their gender do NOT match. Since your own experience undoubtedly is that your sex and your gender DO match, it is understandable why you cannot fathom what we go through. But, your lack of understanding doesn't negate reality. We ARE what we ARE. The purpose of transition is to STOP pretending to be what is expected and exist as we really are within. If you truly understood that you are saying exactly what we are saying you'd see your fallacy.

..
Can you use plastic surgery to change your chromosome? You will always be what you were born but you are free to pretend to be different than what you are. I have no problem with people want to change what they are but the fact remains we are what we are born. There is only a desire to change. I can respect someone's personal freedom to pretend whatever they want without joining the delusion.

 

[SuperCloud]

I believe that all dentists degrees are actually medical degrees so technically they are all MD's already.

Is the DDS a medical degree? It's doctor of dentistry and allows you to prescribe medication so maybe it is. I don't know.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Okay, I do like boxing and I enjoy playing sports like tackle football. But if knowing how to fix cars, do math well, or solve chemistry problems makes a person a woman, then I guess I'm a woman (even though I'm a man).

There are no activities or abilities which define any particular person as a man or a woman. There are statistical generalizations that seem to exist across the genders. But, those generalizations do not define anyone. They are nothing more than the things which do NOT surprise us when we get to know someone.

 

[StephanieSomer]

..
Can you use plastic surgery to change your chromosome? You will always be what you were born but you are free to pretend to be different than what you are. I have no problem with people want to change what they are but the fact remains we are what we are born. There is only a desire to change. I can respect someone's personal freedom to pretend whatever they want without joining the delusion.

If your existence is tied up in nothing more than your chromosomes, you'd not survive. It is not chromosomes that determine gender. Neither is it genitals. It is an innate sense from within your being that is driven by specific structures in the brain.

Besides, the oversimplification of the entire issue by ignoring how we develop and what are the driving forces behind that development are not helpful, or even correct.

Transition is NOT changing what we are. It is changing what we have. Are we or are we not more than the body? What part of us is the REAL essence of what and who we are? The genitals? The chromosomes? Is it not the soul, the inner person? We are not a body. We HAVE a body. We are living souls. Why is it so hard to accept that the body and the soul might not express the same gender? And if they differ, which one is the REAL gender? The genitals? The chromosomes? BTW, there ARE several conditions in which the genitals and the chromosomes do NOT align. They are WELL documented. If the genitals and the chromosomes can easily be discordant, why is it so difficult to imagine that other facets of our being might ALSO be discordant. And if they are, isn't it an honest path to follow to bring those discordances into agreement for the benefit of not only the person but others as well? If my appearance gives others an impression of my soul which is false, shouldn't I endeavor to change that so that it expresses the truth about me? If I fail to do so, I'm not only effectively lying to everyone around me, but I am also essentially destroying my own existence since I become totally invisible and immaterial, and instead become nothing more than an expression of a mask that is not me. A hypocrite by the truest sense of the word.

 

[SuperCloud]

There are no activities or abilities which define any particular person as a man or a woman. There are statistical generalizations that seem to exist across the genders. But, those generalizations do not define anyone. They are nothing more than the things which do NOT surprise us when we get to know someone.

Well... I have to admit I generalize about female drivers, Stephanie. I had to chuckle--when I think it was in China--some mall or store made extra wide parking spaces for female drivers only. Classic.

 

[BroEd]

I am going to respond with the assumption that you are referring specifically to the word "effeminate". Scripture was not written in English. None of it. You must realize that translations always carry the bias of what the translator takes from a particular passage. With that in mind, it is important for us to not simply blithely read and determine that what we see in English is necessarily what was intended. The greek word which is translated as "effeminate" in this verse is μαλακοί. This word is used 4 times in Scripture. This particular verse is the only one which translates it this way. All 3 of the other uses are translated as "soft". See Matt 11:8 where it is used twice, and Luke 7:25.

The most common understanding among commentaries is that it refers to male prostitutes. It seems to have some colloquial usage outside of Scripture as the passive receiver in the homosexual act.

In either usage, it wouldn't refer to transsexuals. It MIGHT perhaps be correctly used regarding certain practices of particular individuals, both transsexual and cisgender, but not towards transsexuals as a whole.

I find it interesting that it comes down to word play. I guess at the judgement we can all use our philosophical reasoning on what we thought God's word REALLY meant. It's also interesting that at this late hour, men and women are determined to speak on behalf of God, thinking that He must now think as we think. I won't rely on the reasoning of fallen humanity. I trust God's voice alone, written in scripture. From the beginning to the end God does not change, his ways are righteous and perfect. When he said, "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God." (Deu.22:5) did he not know what he really meant? Do you think transgender behavior is new? I'll tell you what; you keep believing what you want and I'll do the same...we both have the right to do so...and we will all give an account to the Lord.

 

[StephanieSomer]

I find it interesting that it comes down to word play. I guess at the judgement we can all use our philosophical reasoning on what we thought God's word REALLY meant. It's also interesting that at this late hour, men and women are determined to speak on behalf of God, thinking that He must now think as we think. I won't rely on the reasoning of fallen humanity. I trust God's voice alone, written in scripture. From the beginning to the end God does not change, his ways are righteous and perfect. When he said, "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God." (Deu.22:5) did he not know what he really meant? Do you think transgender behavior is new? I'll tell you what; you keep believing what you want and I'll do the same...we both have the right to do so...and we will all give an account to the Lord.

You have taken the verse in Deuteronomy out of context. I sincerely hope you don't do that as a matter of habit. It could lead you into a lot of sorrow.

Yes, He knew exactly what He meant. Don't suppose that you do.

 

[mmksparbud]

Would you like to explain what the scripture is saying? Perhaps you can also correct my understanding of 1 Corinthians 6:9, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind".

Caitlyn is definitely being feminine---because she is one. She is dressing according to her gender now--this has already been stated many times. It was when she was a man that she was cross-dressing. She can no longer be effeminate. And what makes you think that when raised from the dead into the kingdom of God (should she make it)--she will not be raised as a woman?? There is no biblical reason to believe that God has not always known and accepted the fact that she is female and always has been and will rise her up completely healed along with the others who have been born with birth defects??

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I don't know. Fortunately it is an extremely rare condition. 99.99% of us are born male or female.

So if this can happen, so can people born in the wrong gender.

My theory is that there is a "Kardashian effect" on men that enter the K-web. Lok at all the men in the Kardashian sphere of influence. All seem to skew strange. Kanye may be an outlier given he entered the clan that way.

Caitlyn said when she was a kid, she would try to wear her sisters clothes. She's told both Ex wives about this issues. Then after divorcing the first 2 ex wives she starts taking hormones and meants Kris and stops. She even mentioned to Kris. Kris just never thought much about it. So it have nothing to do with the Kardashian's. Except they are very accepting of this.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I believe people understand more than you would like. As the Unabomber noted years ago you got to do something extreme to be notice. (he killed people) Bruce Jenner would not have made news as himself. A cartoon 6 years ago joked that Bruce Jenner was a woman. Bruce Jenner is in the news for being abnormal and very likely got the idea from the cartoon. He will make millions off of this. People will do extreme things just to get attention.
Pretty much everyone I heard mention this came the same conclusion.

She told her first wife about her gender dysphoria early in their marriage and even began transitioning once before in the '80's but turned back. This was not an idea she adopted from a cartoon six years ago.

 

[Kirsten]

So if this can happen, so can people born in the wrong gender.

Nobody is born into the wrong anything. If you need to take hormones to change your physical state, clearly there is something not natural about it. I think the reason the media is sensationalizing a famous athlete's decision to pretend to be a woman and call it normal is simply a continuation of what has been happening in the past decade (or longer) and that is America's rapid decline into wickedness.

 

[Kirsten]

She told her first wife about her gender dysphoria early in their marriage and even began transitioning once before in the '80's but turned back. This was not an idea she adopted from a cartoon six years ago.

So, he was psychologically disturbed probably from a very early age.

 

[Glass*Soul]

So, he was psychologically disturbed probably from a very early age.

LOL. So, which is a mark against her? Having come up with this idea recently or having lived with it all her life?

Perhaps you and Smidlee can thrash this out and get back to the rest of us later.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Nobody is born into the wrong anything. If you need to take hormones to change your physical state, clearly there is something not natural about it. I think the reason the media is sensationalizing a famous athlete's decision to pretend to be a woman and call it normal is simply a continuation of what has been happening in the past decade (or longer) and that is America's rapid decline into wickedness.

Babies are born with bad things wrong with them, so if a baby can have something wrong with them, so could Jenner. Also I don't see this being evil.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Nobody is born into the wrong anything. If you need to take hormones to change your physical state, clearly there is something not natural about it. I think the reason the media is sensationalizing a famous athlete's decision to pretend to be a woman and call it normal is simply a continuation of what has been happening in the past decade (or longer) and that is America's rapid decline into wickedness.

Examples of types of hormones from Drugs.com:

5-alpha-reductase inhibitors
adrenal cortical steroids
-corticotropin
-glucocorticoids
-mineralocorticoids
adrenal corticosteroid inhibitors
antiandrogens
antidiuretic hormones
antigonadotropic agents
antithyroid agents
aromatase inhibitors
calcitonin
estrogen receptor antagonists
gonadotropin-releasing hormone antagonists
growth hormone receptor blockers
growth hormones
insulin-like growth factor
parathyroid hormone and analogs
progesterone receptor modulators
prolactin inhibitors
selective estrogen receptor modulators
sex hormones
-androgens and anabolic steroids
-contraceptives
-estrogens
-gonadotropin releasing hormones
-gonadotropins
-progestins
-sex hormone combinations
somatostatin and somatostatin analogs
synthetic ovulation stimulants
thyroid drugs

Yep. There it is in black and white. The very picture of America's decline into wickedness. Hormones! Shame on us. Insulin. Synthroid. HRT. It ain't natural folks. It just ain't natural.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Nobody is born into the wrong anything.

(plays with his upper-lip that was repaired from a bilateral cleft)

 

[NightHawkeye]

Just found this ironic story: Man’s Post About Caitlyn Jenner and ‘True Bravery’ Goes Viral — Then He Learned of ‘Ironic Twist’ | The Blaze

In an ironic twist, I have discovered that the photo is part of a documentary created by a man who was beaten nearly to death outside of a bar in 2000. After spending 9 days in a coma, suffering severe brain damage and being unable to walk or talk for a year, he chose to try and cope with his pain from the tragic event, by creating a world of stories and characters and photos set in WWII. The image I chose, was one of those created for an upcoming documentary. Why was he nearly beaten to death by 5 strangers?

Because he was a cross-dresser.​