Vanity Fair Cover: Caitlyn (Bruce) Jenner

[ananda]

I'm not sure I get the foundation of how this applies to transsexuals again.

Therapy first. Check. We do that. It was tried as a way of fixing it and it failed. So we try transition. Yes, it's expensive, but not terribly so if insurance helps.

Does it address the root of the issue? What issue do we talk about? As far as addressing gender dysphoria, it seems very successful, but, as the studies you brought show, it doesn't fix everything (and it was never meant to).

Is there any indication that the mind changes on this subject?

Was anapanasati specifically tried?

In any case, I'd like to clarify that I have no personal opposition against people who decide to undertake surgery, etc. It's their individual choice. And, no, I do not believe it is a "sin".

I am merely pointing out that, in my opinion, things like surgery does not address the root cause, but only superficialities.

 

[BroEd]

Would you like to explain what the scripture is saying? Perhaps you can also correct my understanding of 1 Corinthians 6:9, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind".

 

[Cute Tink]

Was anapanasati specifically tried?

Not that I'm aware of, but I cannot definitively say no. I am not aware of any studies on whether it would work for trans people either, which is why I asked you about that as well.

In any case, I'd like to clarify that I have no personal opposition against people who decide to undertake surgery, etc. It's their individual choice. And, no, I do not believe it is a "sin".

Thanks for that. That is always appreciated. I was actually getting a different sense from how you started in this topic, which caused me to probably treat you more rudely than I should have, so my apologies.

I am merely pointing out that, in my opinion, things like surgery does not address the root cause, but only superficialities.

The current belief among researchers, far as I know, is that gender dysphoria is caused by a developmental mismatch between brain and body. They have not suggested any way of literally switching the brain over in that sense.

If I may say, though, it sounds like your suggested treatment doesn't address the root cause, instead separating it from the person's daily experience so that it could be more effectively ignored.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Someone who thinks they are the opposite sex is like someone at 80 pounds that sees themselves fat. It's near impossible to prove that person that what they see is not true or real. This is why I don't base my faith in myself but the Word of God

That is not an apropos example. One's body is a three dimensional object in space that others can perceive. We can measure its shape and size and norm our perceptions of it.

Gender is a construct. It is a way of being. A sense of oneself. It does not materialize. We cannot examine another person's gender. Now, you may suggest that their bodies demonstrate certain sex characteristics normally associated with a particular gender which we can examine, but a trans person is not going to argue with you as to their physical characteristics. They see how their bodies look just as others do.

If an 80 pound person who thinks they are fat continues dieting, they will die. A person who has gender dysphoria who transitions reduces their risk of death.

The Bible has a lot of good stuff in it that you can apply to your interactions with trans people. In regards to your posting here, I don't see you accessing them as of yet...

 

[ananda]

Not that I'm aware of, but I cannot definitively say no. I am not aware of any studies on whether it would work for trans people either, which is why I asked you about that as well.

If it is rooted in suffering, then anapanasati should work.

Thanks for that. That is always appreciated. I was actually getting a different sense from how you started in this topic, which caused me to probably treat you more rudely than I should have, so my apologies.

Thank you: I also apologize for not being clearer, earlier.

The current belief among researchers, far as I know, is that gender dysphoria is caused by a developmental mismatch between brain and body. They have not suggested any way of literally switching the brain over in that sense. If I may say, though, it sounds like your suggested treatment doesn't address the root cause, instead separating it from the person's daily experience so that it could be more effectively ignored.

If a person is experiencing thoughts/feelings that do not correspond with reality, then rather than attempting to change reality, anapanasati would resolve those thoughts and feelings.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Would you like to explain what the scripture is saying? Perhaps you can also correct my understanding of 1 Corinthians 6:9, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind".

The "effeminate" that's talked about 1 Corinthians 6:9 comes from the Greek word "μαλακία" (malakia) is referring to male prostitutes and/or those who are morally soft, as that word means "softness".It's also used in Matthew and Luke to refer to delicate, expensive, fancy clothing.There's literally no evidence outside of conversative scholar's viewpoints to suggest the word malakia is referring to anything regarding crossdressing or the like.

 

[Cute Tink]

If it is rooted in suffering, then anapanasati should work.

I would be interested in seeing someone provide some data showing the effects of this. I wouldn't mind spending some time finding out more about it.

However, the suffering comes largely from the disconnect between the brain and body. What I and many other trans people have found is that suppressing these feelings and trying to ignore them (which isn't necessarily different from your suggestion in my base understanding of it from your simple explanation) doesn't last. It always has come crashing back and it usually comes back worse the next time around. I'm wary of any attempt at suppression or ignoring for that reason.

Thank you: I also apologize for not being clearer, earlier.

If a person is experiencing thoughts/feelings that do not correspond with reality, then rather than attempting to change reality, anapanasati would resolve those thoughts and feelings.

Here's where we are going to diverge again. This is a part of reality. Granted it is not a part that can be seen, felt, touched, etc. (well, not without expensive tests and equipment anyway and please don't touch my brain), but that doesn't mean that it isn't just as real as anything else.

 

[Glass*Soul]

If it is rooted in suffering, then anapanasati should work.

Thank you: I also apologize for not being clearer, earlier.

If a person is experiencing thoughts/feelings that do not correspond with reality, then rather than attempting to change reality, anapanasati would resolve those thoughts and feelings.

If the reality is that one's brain has over-riding physical and functional characteristics of a gender that differs from that implied by the appearance of the body then that is something that needs to be faced. If there is no treatment available to bring the physical brain into line with the body but there are treatments that go some distance toward bringing the body into line with the brain, it would be logical for the higher self to dispassionately consider that course of action. To ignore this state of affairs, to whitewash it as Jesus liked to say, is not to honor reality.

 

[ananda]

I would be interested in seeing someone provide some data showing the effects of this. I wouldn't mind spending some time finding out more about it.

However, the suffering comes largely from the disconnect between the brain and body. What I and many other trans people have found is that suppressing these feelings and trying to ignore them (which isn't necessarily different from your suggestion in my base understanding of it from your simple explanation) doesn't last. It always has come crashing back and it usually comes back worse the next time around. I'm wary of any attempt at suppression or ignoring for that reason.

Suppression (aversion) or ignoring (delusion) is not the same as taking a "whatever" (mindful) attitude towards a thought or feeling, however. The anapanasati process is also more involved than just mindfulness (just to clarify), but it is one major part of it.

Here's where we are going to diverge again. This is a part of reality. Granted it is not a part that can be seen, felt, touched, etc. (well, not without expensive tests and equipment anyway and please don't touch my brain), but that doesn't mean that it isn't just as real as anything else.

I have no doubt that the thought, feeling, and the associated brain activity is very "real" to the person experiencing it. I am philosophically questioning if that brain/mind activity is skillful or unskillful.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Jinx!

(But Tink beat me to it and did it better.)

 

[ananda]

If the reality is that one's brain has over-riding physical and functional characteristics of a gender that differs from that implied by the appearance of the body then that is something that needs to be faced. If there is no treatment available to bring the physical brain into line with the body but there are treatments that go some distance toward bringing the body into line with the brain, it would be logical for the higher self to dispassionately consider that course of action. To ignore this state of affairs, to whitewash it as Jesus liked to say, is not to honor reality.

I identify the brain with the mind, but not with the consciousness, the latter of which is intended to rule over and tame the former as part of the spiritual path.

 

[Cute Tink]

Suppression (aversion) or ignoring (delusion) is not the same as taking a "whatever" (mindful) attitude towards a thought or feeling, however. The anapanasati process is also more involved than just mindfulness (just to clarify), but it is one major part of it.

I would have to take your word for that at this point, having no knowledge of the process.

I have no doubt that the thought, feeling, and the associated brain activity is very "real" to the person experiencing it. I am philosophically questioning if that brain/mind activity is skillful or unskillful.

As previously noted before, it's not just a perception issue, but a physical brain construction issue as well, likely resulting from a developmental hormonal cue going wrong.

I'm not sure how you are using the terms for "skillful" or "unskillful" so I cannot comment.

 

[Cute Tink]

ananda, perhaps you could link me to what you consider the best source of information on the internet so I can read about anapanasati?

 

[StephanieSomer]

Would you like to explain what the scripture is saying? Perhaps you can also correct my understanding of 1 Corinthians 6:9, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind".

I am going to respond with the assumption that you are referring specifically to the word "effeminate". Scripture was not written in English. None of it. You must realize that translations always carry the bias of what the translator takes from a particular passage. With that in mind, it is important for us to not simply blithely read and determine that what we see in English is necessarily what was intended. The greek word which is translated as "effeminate" in this verse is μαλακοί. This word is used 4 times in Scripture. This particular verse is the only one which translates it this way. All 3 of the other uses are translated as "soft". See Matt 11:8 where it is used twice, and Luke 7:25.

The most common understanding among commentaries is that it refers to male prostitutes. It seems to have some colloquial usage outside of Scripture as the passive receiver in the homosexual act.

In either usage, it wouldn't refer to transsexuals. It MIGHT perhaps be correctly used regarding certain practices of particular individuals, both transsexual and cisgender, but not towards transsexuals as a whole.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I identify the brain with the mind, but not with the consciousness, the latter of which is intended to rule over and tame the former as part of the spiritual path.

I sometime find it useful to consider my consciousness as other than the workings of my brain, which acts more like "Being's Dumb Fantasy, nodding and counting off beads" as the Poet put it. My Self has emerged from the workings of my brain in ways I do not fully comprehend. However, I have no reason to suspect that my Self has any being apart from my brain. Only that it experiences the seeming-ness of existing on differing levels. That which I consider my higher self would have the job of reconciling my gender and my sex if I were trans. I am not, but I am autistic, which takes its own bit of multi-layered work. There is no panacea. Even the profound is not a panacea. We work in secret but what we do manifests in this world how it will and that is a thing to be reckoned with.

You are not finding fools or sissies here, ananda, nor on the cover of Vanity Faire.

 

[ananda]

I would have to take your word for that at this point, having no knowledge of the process.

It took me years to understand, know, and practice mindfulness fully, myself, but as I understand and practice it, and to summarize: it does not involve either "pushing" something away or trying to ignore it. It involves being able to use the consciousness to observe the mind, to dispassionately observe an object - such as a thought formed by the mind - when it arises, dispassionately observing the feelings that it provokes in the mind and the corresponding bodily sensations when it is present, dispassionately observing when it fades away, and thus understanding its impermanent, random nature and how it causes suffering. Thus understanding, one grows in wisdom as to the futility of holding on to that thought, and natural attachment to the thought begins to erode away. Over time, the thought and associated feeling(s) loses mental power, until they fade away to nothing through repeated application of this process.

As previously noted before, it's not just a perception issue, but a physical brain construction issue as well, likely resulting from a developmental hormonal cue going wrong. I'm not sure how you are using the terms for "skillful" or "unskillful" so I cannot comment.

I'm sure there are often genetic issues causing construction issues with the physical brain ... but then, there is evidence of people living with a high IQ even without a brain (literally). I'm using the Buddhist concepts of "skillful" and "unskillful" - all activity is considered one or the other, the former means "anything that is helpful for one's and other's own spiritual development, and applications of the golden rule".

 

[StephanieSomer]

I identify the brain with the mind, but not with the consciousness, the latter of which is intended to rule over and tame the former as part of the spiritual path.

If I understand the whole concept correctly, would not the consciousness endeavor to maintain control over the rest of the whole being, even the physical? What I'm getting at is, Is it possible that perhaps the underlying impetus for a genetically male individual developing female-like structures in the brain is from the consciousness? Would not gender be more of an element of the consciousness, rather than an element of the mind? It seems to be for me. And from the many and varied discussions I've had with other transsexuals in the past, gender seems to be deeper within the being than just in the mind. Irrefutably, it is far deeper than the crotch.

 

[rturner76]

No matter what Bruce Jenner says or does he will always be a man. His confusion is unfortunate but we are what we are. He will continue to be a man but he will be pretending to be a woman.

 

[ananda]

ananda, perhaps you could link me to what you consider the best source of information on the internet so I can read about anapanasati?

I recommend: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html

... and search for anapanasati, samatha, and vipassana.

 

[StephanieSomer]

No matter what Bruce Jenner says or does he will always be a man. His confusion is unfortunate but we are what we are. He will continue to be a man but he will be pretending to be a woman.

No matter what you say or think you know, that position will always be demonstrated as wrong by evidence. It is unfortunate that you do not possess the ability to understand, nor want to.

You are correct that we are what we are. Maybe you see yourself as nothing more than your crotch, but I don't. There is so much more. And there is direct observational evidence that transsexuals ARE what they say they are. There's too much evidence to ignore that their gender is real, and just as they state it to be. If their sex aligned with it, there would be no problem. The whole point is that their sex and their gender do NOT match. Since your own experience undoubtedly is that your sex and your gender DO match, it is understandable why you cannot fathom what we go through. But, your lack of understanding doesn't negate reality. We ARE what we ARE. The purpose of transition is to STOP pretending to be what is expected and exist as we really are within. If you truly understood that you are saying exactly what we are saying you'd see your fallacy.