Are Mormons and JWs Christians?

[Hammster]

I understand you need to say that. I also understand, you likely can not demonstrate in any objective or reliable way, that I believed any lie. I have no problem with those that say they believe the writings on faith, but to say the writings are historically reliable, would not be accurate in my view.

The NT is a fabulous work of theology, not so much a work of reliable history, in my view from examining the work of people who forget more about this stuff, than anyone on this board will ever know.

I understand your need to say that.

 

[bhsmte]

I understand your need to say that.

You are right, because I can not reconcile anything else with reality.

 

[Hammster]

You are right, because I can not reconcile anything else with reality.

Okay. I don't have that issue.

 

[bhsmte]

Okay. I don't have that issue.

I know.

 

[jared1236]

Being a Christian means following Christ and having a personal relationship with Him. It means to follow The Doctrines revealed in The Holy Bible and the teachings of Holy Bible. Without a doubt " the teachings of JWs and LDS church" are Unbiblical. I will firmly say they have long deserted Christianity and Bible when they rejected fundamental doctrines like The Divinity of Christ and The Doctrine of Trinity. But still a there is a chance that someone is very bad JW but a very good Christian or a very bad mormon but a very good christian. But as religious orgainzations they are cults as they have deviated from Christianity and are somewhat pagan now.

 

[TillICollapse]

Questioning what was meant is different than questioning what was said.

This is an issue I have with much of Christianity. How do you KNOW what God said or didn't say, if your main reference is a book, or manuscript, or word of mouth, etc ? That is to say, if you didn't hear it "from God", then how do you know 1) what He actually said or didn't say, and 2) what He meant or didn't mean ?

This issue is arguably addressed in the very beginning of Genesis, at the garden account. There you have Adam and Eve, who were told directly a certain thing. So not only do they have each other as a reference, they heard it directly from Yahweh/God/Elohim/etc ... whoever told them.

You then have the serpent/snake coming along, giving an interpretation. You have Eve using her "God given" abilities, in the state they were in, to judge matters and make a choice, to examine what was true or not for her own self. You have Adam doing similarly ... and the next thing you know, they get it all wrong. In other words, they had all these tools at their disposal, and they still got it wrong. Had they simply gone back to God/Yahweh/etc and clarified what they now were considering as it concerned what He actually meant, it may have been a different story. But this didn't happen. They reference everything except God directly to make their choices.

How is much of Christianity any different from this very first mistake recording in the beginning of Genesis ? Talking about what they believe God said or didn't say, going off of interpretations, referencing each other, using what they believe have been given to them by God to make such determinations, etc. The learned of Israel did this and failed to identify their Messiah arguably, along with many prophets who were ignored, persecuted, etc. Look at how they treated Moses for that matter. So now you have much of Christianity doing something similar, constantly referencing books and words. The thing is, even if God DID say precisely what is recorded, how do you know your interpretation is the correct one if it's not God directly clarifying or testifying on your behalf for you ? Look at the mistakes made all throughout the scriptures themselves of those who knew scripture, knew what God apparently said, yet failed to often make sense of it to the degree they couldn't recognize the very Spirit of God among them.

It would seem to me that the way to cut through the "what if's" and the confusion, is to seek direct clarification from "God" directly. I mean, if millions of people can't agree on what I've said, why not just ask me directly so I can clarify what I've said instead of relying on hearsay and conjecture ?

 

[seekingsolace]

It would seem to me that the way to cut through the "what if's" and the confusion, is to seek direct clarification from "God" directly. I mean, if millions of people can't agree on what I've said, why not just ask me directly so I can clarify what I've said instead of relying on hearsay and conjecture ?

What is your point?

 

[Hammster]

This is an issue I have with much of Christianity. How do you KNOW what God said or didn't say, if your main reference is a book, or manuscript, or word of mouth, etc ? That is to say, if you didn't hear it "from God", then how do you know 1) what He actually said or didn't say, and 2) what He meant or didn't mean ?

This issue is arguably addressed in the very beginning of Genesis, at the garden account. There you have Adam and Eve, who were told directly a certain thing. So not only do they have each other as a reference, they heard it directly from Yahweh/God/Elohim/etc ... whoever told them.

You then have the serpent/snake coming along, giving an interpretation. You have Eve using her "God given" abilities, in the state they were in, to judge matters and make a choice, to examine what was true or not for her own self. You have Adam doing similarly ... and the next thing you know, they get it all wrong. In other words, they had all these tools at their disposal, and they still got it wrong. Had they simply gone back to God/Yahweh/etc and clarified what they now were considering as it concerned what He actually meant, it may have been a different story. But this didn't happen. They reference everything except God directly to make their choices.

How is much of Christianity any different from this very first mistake recording in the beginning of Genesis ? Talking about what they believe God said or didn't say, going off of interpretations, referencing each other, using what they believe have been given to them by God to make such determinations, etc. The learned of Israel did this and failed to identify their Messiah arguably, along with many prophets who were ignored, persecuted, etc. Look at how they treated Moses for that matter. So now you have much of Christianity doing something similar, constantly referencing books and words. The thing is, even if God DID say precisely what is recorded, how do you know your interpretation is the correct one if it's not God directly clarifying or testifying on your behalf for you ? Look at the mistakes made all throughout the scriptures themselves of those who knew scripture, knew what God apparently said, yet failed to often make sense of it to the degree they couldn't recognize the very Spirit of God among them.

It would seem to me that the way to cut through the "what if's" and the confusion, is to seek direct clarification from "God" directly. I mean, if millions of people can't agree on what I've said, why not just ask me directly so I can clarify what I've said instead of relying on hearsay and conjecture ?

That different people have different views of scripture doesn't prove anything.

 

[TillICollapse]

That different people have different views of scripture doesn't prove anything.

But you never answered my questions in the opening paragraph of my post.

 

[Hammster]

But you never answered my questions in the opening paragraph of my post.

That's because you rambled. So it's obvious that whatever I say will be dismissed. Especially if I quote scripture.

 

[seekingsolace]

But you never answered my questions in the opening paragraph of my post.

Are you suggesting we need to hear voices to know truth?

 

[RDKatz]

I think your opinion was accurate. The new birth is an evidence of a real christian.
If a Mormon believes in Joseph Smith more than in Jesus Christ he can not be considered a Christian. As for JW, they do not honor the Son of God as the Father himself does, then they can not be considered Christians. Greetings from Brasil...

Where are you getting that the LDS think that Joseph Smith is more than Jesus Christ? That is certainly not true.

 

[seekingsolace]

Where are you getting that the LDS think that Joseph Smith is more than Jesus Christ? That is certainly not true.

No just equal.

 

[Red Fox]

That different people have different views of scripture doesn't prove anything.

I think it proves that neither one can both be right at the same time and there's even a good chance that neither one knows what they're talking about in the first place, other than what someone else told them to believe or not believe.

 

[Hammster]

I think it proves that neither one can both be right at the same time and there's even a good chance that neither one knows what they're talking about in the first place, other than what someone else told them to believe or not believe.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[RDKatz]

Well, no, it isn't. See the Scripture references in the Creed in our rules.

And why are you coming to a Christian Internet forum to spout this kind of stuff, anyway?

What rules are these. I have looked for them without success. Just because some rule says something does not make it truth.

I am here because I started receiving emails about the forum. When I tried to sign up, it seems that I was already a member.

 

[TillICollapse]

Are you suggesting we need to hear voices to know truth?

I'm suggesting that one needs to actually know God directly, and have God verify His own words and what He actually meant, in order to know the truth about what God said or didn't say, and what God meant or didn't mean.

I think this is rather basic as to how facts and truth get verified: If you want to know what someone actually said and what they actually meant, you ask them directly and let them tell you. If there is a question needing clarification, you ask them to clarify.

Not sure what you mean by "hearing voices".

 

[seekingsolace]

I'm suggesting that one needs to actually know God directly, and have God verify His own words and what He actually meant, in order to know the truth about what God said or didn't say, and what God meant or didn't mean.

I think this is rather basic as to how facts and truth get verified: If you want to know what someone actually said and what they actually meant, you ask them directly and let them tell you. If there is a question needing clarification, you ask them to clarify.

Not sure what you mean by "hearing voices".

So we need to pop along and pay God a visit to believe any truth?

 

[RDKatz]

Because your beliefs contradict traditional Christianity makes them not a part of traditional Christianity. It really is that simple.

Where is it written that Traditional Christianity is true? We are clearly not part of Traditional Christianity but that does not make us wrong. You have yet to definite Christianity and provide scriptural backing to your definition.

 

[Red Fox]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Based on years of observation, listening to Christians continuously argue and debate with each other over practically anything under the sun pertaining to Christianity.