Are Mormons and JWs Christians?

[Red Fox]

And with all the plethora of variations in Christian beliefs, teachings, church doctrines, and scripture interpretations floating around in Christendom, I can't honestly answer, in good conscience, which ones among all these aspects of Christianity should be considered heresy and which ones shouldn't. And based on my observations over the years, I would say that this is the norm for the majority of Christians, if not all of them, that I have encountered in my lifetime.

 

[Albion]

I personally have no difficulty calling Catholics “Christians”, but from a protestant point of view I fail to see the fundamental difference between a denomination such as the RCC and the LDS.

Well, it doesn't rest upon whether or not someone prays to Mary.

 

[bhsmte]

That different people have different views of scripture doesn't prove anything.

It proves that people can read the same text and come to different conclusions on interpretation and or reliability of the same.

 

[mikejduk]

There has been a lot of confusion since CF made it's ruling that Mormons and JWs are not valid Christian faiths.
There has been anger and hurt feelings...and accusations flung back and forth.
Many of us feel that this decision was right and proper. There are basic tenets of Christianity that simply may not be compromised.
Many others feel that the decision was unfair. They feel that, as long as someone believes in Jesus he or she is a Christian, regardless what other strange doctrines he/she might hold.
Wdo you think?

I make no apology if a sense of righteous anger is apparent in the words I am about to share. I mean no offence to anyone and will only share the truth, according to God's word. I will defend God's Word and His church with the truth to my dying day. I find it immensely disturbing that 10% of the votes cast here are in favour of the statement that as long as Jesus is believed in they qualify as Christian. Nothing could be further from the truth. James warns in his letter James 2:19 'You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder'. How often have we told non-Christians that believing in the existence of God, even in the existence of His son Jesus Christ, won't save them. Salvation only comes through accepting Jesus as your Lord and saviour, after acknowledging your sin and repenting of it. As the day of our Lord Jesus' return grows ever nearer, all kinds of cults and isms are scurrying like rats on a sinking ship under the umbrella of 'Christianity'. I have even come across a leaflet published by Muslims that makes a terrible attempt to link their faith with Christianity. I've never attempted to upload a file to this site before but I will try because, some time ago I wrote a ten page thesis on the truth of Jehovah's Witnesses, exposing them for the absolute lie that they are when they present themselves as 'Christian'. Please read it. All Christians should be so confident of their faith. So in tune with God's Holy Spirit within them, that immediately they are presented with false doctrines they will feel the Spirit within them rise up in righteous anger. Please read the file I hope I can upload but for now; There is only one UNFORGIVABLE SIN in the bible that Jesus warned of and that is 'Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'. The Holy Spirit is as much a part of the Triune Godhead that we as Christians uphold as central to our faith. (Texts for all I am stating here can be seen in the uploaded file). Jesus, Himself, refers to the Holy Spirit as 'He' 'Him'. The Holy Spirit is a being. He can obviously change shape because he alighted on Jesus' head as a dove when He was baptised. Both JW's and Mormons reject the fact that the Holy Spirit is a being. And therein they are running the greatest risk of committing the unforgivable sin. Jesus is God's son. In scripture He is described as Emmanuel - Which means 'God with us' Matthew 1:23; Isaiah 7:14. Both JW's and Mormons refuse to accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. They see Him merely as a prophet or a good man. But scripture clearly states 'For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form' Colossians 2:9.

Ok, I'm in danger here of repeating everything that is in the thesis I am uploading. My greatest concern for those who believe that these cults of JWs and Mormonism are Christian, is the likelihood that they are NOT born again believers. That they do not have God's Spirit within them. How can they give credence to such false doctrines as; there is no such place as Hell and no such person as the devil? Think about it, wouldn't the devil just love us all to believe such lies? Can you imagine what kind of a world we would live in if no-one believed in Hell or the devil? Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. As a warning to those He loved and died for. In these dark times, where even the country of Ireland, that I always believed to be staunchly Roman Catholic, voted in favour of same sex marriage, Christians everywhere must be on their guard. Crave the knowledge of God's word. Write it on your heart and in your minds. Don't allow yourselves to be tossed about with spurious, evil waves of doctrine.

With love in Christ Jesus

PS. Sorry, it seems the system won't allow me to upload a doc file. I'll have to check it out with the administrators. I will upload it as soon as I am able, admin permitting.

 

[Architeuthus]

What rules are these. I have looked for them without success. Just because some rule says something does not make it truth.

See "Terms and Rules" at the bottom of the page, and then "Christian Forums Rules" on the menu on the left, or go directly to this link. Everybody is required to agree to these rules.

Where is it written that Traditional Christianity is true?

Christian Forums is based around Traditional Christianity. That's what our Statement of Faith describes. That's who we are.

 

[RDKatz]

Does he have a slightly sinister brother however?

Since we are all his brothers and sisters, I am sure there are some who are somewhat sinister.

 

[RDKatz]

What you don't seem to understand is that Christian Forums is a site created by Traditional Christians for Traditional Christians.
The people who own and maintain the site have the right to make whatever rules they choose, and they chose to limit Mormons and JWs as to where they may post within their site.
The fact is, they don't have to let you post on their site at all...however, they are big hearted and kind enough to allow you to post in non-Christian areas.

It is true that this forum is run by others. Those people emailed me, inviting me to participate. The Church of Jesus Christ is Christian by definition. I have asked for and have yet to get a valid scriptural definition of Christian. Since you are unable to answer this simple query tells me a lot about the confusion of the Christian community to identify itself.

 

[Architeuthus]

The Church of Jesus Christ is Christian by definition.

That's the issue being discussed in this thread.

I have asked for and have yet to get a valid scriptural definition of Christian. Since you are unable to answer this simple query tells me a lot about the confusion of the Christian community to identify itself.

The definition used here on Christian Forums is the Nicene Creed, which summarises Scripture (see the verses in the version in the rules, which I linked to). If you don't accept the Creed, which is Christian Forums' official Statement of Faith, that restricts the degree of participation you can have.

Abusing "the Christian community" doesn't help.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Since we are all his brothers and sisters, I am sure there are some who are somewhat sinister.

I realize that is the Mormon belief, but Christians don't believe that we are all brothers and sisters. Only those of us in Christ are brothers and sisters. Men (and women) are God's creation, not children. He has only one begotten Son - Jesus. He created Adam and Eve and the rest of us are their descendants (ergo God's creation). One joins the family of God when he or she becomes a Christian.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

It is true that this forum is run by others. Those people emailed me, inviting me to participate. The Church of Jesus Christ is Christian by definition. I have asked for and have yet to get a valid scriptural definition of Christian. Since you are unable to answer this simple query tells me a lot about the confusion of the Christian community to identify itself.

So you'd agree then that Christians are LDS by definition also, right? I'm LDS.

 

[Hammster]

Christians being the children of God, Jesus being the son of God, and how Christians are all brothers and sisters in Christ is now heresy? That's news to me.

We aren't all children. To those who believe He gave the right to be called children of God.

 

[Hammster]

Hammster, you didn't answer my question... And what about protestant denominations that practice infant baptism, are they Christians in your opinion?

I guess I missed it.

Those who practice infant baptism are not by default in-Christian.

 

[Hammster]

It proves that people can read the same text and come to different conclusions on interpretation and or reliability of the same.

But it says nothing about the text itself.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, does this mean that you regard Catholics as Orthodox Christians?

If I understand you correctly Catholics are Christians even if they “venerate” Mary and various saints, but Mormons believing in a “Heavenly Mother” are not?

I personally have no difficulty calling Catholics “Christians”, but from a protestant point of view I fail to see the fundamental difference between a denomination such as the RCC and the LDS.

Catholics are orthodox.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay, does this mean that you regard Catholics as Orthodox Christians?

If I understand you correctly Catholics are Christians even if they “venerate” Mary and various saints, but Mormons believing in a “Heavenly Mother” are not?

Veneration of the Blessed Virgin is the veneration of a completely ordinary human person without any divinity whatsoever. She is venerated within Christianity (Roman Catholics aren't the only Christians who respect and honor the mother of God, Eastern Orthodox and many Protestants do as well) on account that she is mother of Christ who is God (hence being called mother of God and Theotokos, God-bearer). For the same way St. James is honored as Adelphotheos ("brother of God"), or St. Joseph is honored as the stepfather/adoptive father of God, etc. Though Mary is afforded a special honor, for her unique place in the Gospel story is without parallel: God became man, became flesh of her flesh and bone of her bone. Her blessedness and honor is unique on this account, but she is still only human, not divine, and not honored as divine. She is honored on account of her Child, Jesus Christ, who is God-and-Man.

I personally have no difficulty calling Catholics “Christians”, but from a protestant point of view I fail to see the fundamental difference between a denomination such as the RCC and the LDS.

I'm not saying you shouldn't call members of the LDS Christian, but I would find it odd that you don't see a fundamental difference between an historically orthodox church that confesses the Nicene Creed and a church that subscribes to significantly heterodox.

But I suppose that depends on how you are establishing your measurement and standard, if your particular denomination/tradition is the standard then you may find Roman Catholicism equally as foreign as Mormonism. As a Lutheran I tend to find significantly more common ground with Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox than I do most other Protestants. And in the major area of Justification I would tend to see most other Protestants as equally errant as I do Roman Catholics--from a Lutheran vantage point the Evangelical teaching on justification is a teaching of justification through human effort in cooperation with divine grace (i.e. "accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior"), essentially no different in substance than the Roman Catholic teaching. But that's me coming from a Lutheran vantage point.

If the standard of orthodoxy is our own tradition in its particulars, then we pretty much are left making ourselves the standard of orthodoxy; which is why I would think it is a far better thing to rely on the historic voice of the Church catholic, which points to things such as the Nicene Creed.

Our Baptism makes us Christian.
Our confession of the Creed makes us orthodox.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TheBarrd]

Since we are all children of our Heavenly Father, we are all brothers (and sisters) of each other. Since Jesus is the son of God, he is our brother.

Does that mean we are all begotten sons and daughters of God...His "spirit children"?
And what about that other brother...Satan? is Satan also your brother?

 

[RDKatz]

That's the issue being discussed in this thread.



The definition used here on Christian Forums is the Nicene Creed, which summarises Scripture (see the verses in the version in the rules, which I linked to). If you don't accept the Creed, which is Christian Forums' official Statement of Faith, that restricts the degree of participation you can have.

Abusing "the Christian community" doesn't help.

I have posted in this thread only. I have great interest in those who would attempt to classify the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as anything other than Christian. I have asked for a valid definition of Christian. I have yet to receive one. The rules state faith in the Nicene Creed. It does not say that the Nicene Creed is true. I do not accept the Creed because the Bible states otherwise.

I do not abuse the Christian Community but I question the exclusion of Groups of people who are obviously Christian.

 

[mmksparbud]

We are all born adopted children of God--Christ died for everyone, while we were yet in our sins, believer and unbeliever alike. All anyone has to do is accept it now. If you do not believe and accept Christ, you will die, but everyone has already had their price paid. Christ did not die for believers only. He purchased us with His blood, the rest is up to us.
And NO, Satan is not my brother!! He never became part human to be so called, only Christ did. He is not in my family circle!

 

[RDKatz]

I realize that is the Mormon belief, but Christians don't believe that we are all brothers and sisters. Only those of us in Christ are brothers and sisters. Men (and women) are God's creation, not children. He has only one begotten Son - Jesus. He created Adam and Eve and the rest of us are their descendants (ergo God's creation). One joins the family of God when he or she becomes a Christian.

Am I not a creation of my Earthly Father and Mother? Thus I can trance myself back to Adam and Eve. Since they came from God, I can trace myself to God. In that manner I am a child of God. Since we all trace ourselves back to God, we are His Children. Since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian, I am a son of God by your definition.

 

[TheBarrd]

I make no apology if a sense of righteous anger is apparent in the words I am about to share. I mean no offence to anyone and will only share the truth, according to God's word. I will defend God's Word and His church with the truth to my dying day. I find it immensely disturbing that 10% of the votes cast here are in favour of the statement that as long as Jesus is believed in they qualify as Christian. Nothing could be further from the truth. James warns in his letter James 2:19 'You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder'. How often have we told non-Christians that believing in the existence of God, even in the existence of His son Jesus Christ, won't save them. Salvation only comes through accepting Jesus as your Lord and saviour, after acknowledging your sin and repenting of it. As the day of our Lord Jesus' return grows ever nearer, all kinds of cults and isms are scurrying like rats on a sinking ship under the umbrella of 'Christianity'. I have even come across a leaflet published by Muslims that makes a terrible attempt to link their faith with Christianity. I've never attempted to upload a file to this site before but I will try because, some time ago I wrote a ten page thesis on the truth of Jehovah's Witnesses, exposing them for the absolute lie that they are when they present themselves as 'Christian'. Please read it. All Christians should be so confident of their faith. So in tune with God's Holy Spirit within them, that immediately they are presented with false doctrines they will feel the Spirit within them rise up in righteous anger. Please read the file I hope I can upload but for now; There is only one UNFORGIVABLE SIN in the bible that Jesus warned of and that is 'Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'. The Holy Spirit is as much a part of the Triune Godhead that we as Christians uphold as central to our faith. (Texts for all I am stating here can be seen in the uploaded file). Jesus, Himself, refers to the Holy Spirit as 'He' 'Him'. The Holy Spirit is a being. He can obviously change shape because he alighted on Jesus' head as a dove when He was baptised. Both JW's and Mormons reject the fact that the Holy Spirit is a being. And therein they are running the greatest risk of committing the unforgivable sin. Jesus is God's son. In scripture He is described as Emmanuel - Which means 'God with us' Matthew 1:23; Isaiah 7:14. Both JW's and Mormons refuse to accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. They see Him merely as a prophet or a good man. But scripture clearly states 'For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form' Colossians 2:9.

Ok, I'm in danger here of repeating everything that is in the thesis I am uploading. My greatest concern for those who believe that these cults of JWs and Mormonism are Christian, is the likelihood that they are NOT born again believers. That they do not have God's Spirit within them. How can they give credence to such false doctrines as; there is no such place as Hell and no such person as the devil? Think about it, wouldn't the devil just love us all to believe such lies? Can you imagine what kind of a world we would live in if no-one believed in Hell or the devil? Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. As a warning to those He loved and died for. In these dark times, where even the country of Ireland, that I always believed to be staunchly Roman Catholic, voted in favour of same sex marriage, Christians everywhere must be on their guard. Crave the knowledge of God's word. Write it on your heart and in your minds. Don't allow yourselves to be tossed about with spurious, evil waves of doctrine.

With love in Christ Jesus

PS. Sorry, it seems the system won't allow me to upload a doc file. I'll have to check it out with the administrators. I will upload it as soon as I am able, admin permitting.

I would love to read your file.
Had you thought of posting to your blog? Perhaps that way, you could copy and paste a few pages at a time...