$15 Dollar per hour minimum wage your Thoughts?

[OldFashionGal]

There are indeed many voices saying to take the money that the rich have. I said that this was not morally right, even if a jillion Democratic Socialists think the other person's wealth is up for grabs.

I do think that you understand that if the state requires a higher than reasonable minimum wage, it will not lead to what those people assume will happen but reduced hours, relocation of industries, etc.

This is so misunderstood. Most people are not against the wealthy having their money honestly! What most people are against is when they get out of paying their share of taxes with loop holes that many times ends up with them paying zero taxes! While the middle class has to pay their taxes. So many people yell no hand outs to seniors or the disabled, those working jobs if they don't make enough money too bad! But so many of them don't mind the hand outs to the most wealthy. Hand outs, loop holes, subsidies for the wealthy is what I am against and it is what a lot of others is against. I'm not religious but I always think of the story about the rich man and just imagine if that story is true what would happen today if Jesus told so many of the billionaires and millionaires to sell all they have and give to the poor??? Just asking Jesus must had thought that was morally right??

 

[MiniEmu]

True. All that matters in the end is how God judges the choices and actions we have made throughout our lives. We must be able to go to our death beds sound in the knowledge that above all else we worked to ensure our fellow humans were treated kindly and fairly. It is too easy to fall into rationalising such matters in a very secular fashion, I apologise.

The productivity argument is a helpful support in debates about minimum pay rates but for Christians the core argument must be the teaching of Christ and Christ undoubtedly taught that pay that impoverishes workers is wicked and that ignoring the plight of the poor is wicked. One need only read Matthew 25:31-48 to see that neglect of the poor and persecuted is so wicked that even a robust appeal to Christ as Lord will not avail those who do the neglecting. Free market rhetoric will not avail at the last judgement even if some economists and many voters wish it would.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Never said they would have a designated milk returner. However, if they replace cashiers with do it yourself. What is to stop them from having nothing but self checkouts?

Hey. If they don't want me leaving stuff there.... have a person for me to deal with. Then they will have my money and no milk on the floor. It's not like I spend my free time just going to stores and leaving stuff everywhere for fun.

I am a customer. If I am unhappy at any moment. I am free to leave and I do. They are NOT entitled to my money simply cause they are there.

They're not going to replace all cashiers with "do it yourself". Why? Because they already need multiple cashiers just to get people through do it yourself lanes. There are also many people who prefer cashiers over self service. I personally am so happy that we have self service at the big WalMart here, because I have severe social anxiety and it allows me to shop without additional stress.

If you don't want something and you don't want to replace it where it belongs, all you need to do is bring it to the front. Even if you just leave it on the end of the checkout line and leave, it's better and more respectful than leaving it in a random place. I have had to leave all of my groceries in a checkout line before because I had a severe panic attack while shopping and had to leave. That way, the staff knows that this stuff needs to be put away and it isn't sitting in a corner somewhere, possibly spoiling.

Of course you can leave at any moment and they are not entitled to your money. When did I say otherwise? I was simply saying, please be respectful to the staff. I work with the general public, and have had plenty of people be rude and thoughtless towards me. It's not enjoyable, and makes me despise my job. One thing I hate is "surprises", like trash left out everywhere (with a huge trashcan within arms reach), pamphlets thrown on the floor right in front of the pamphlet rack, and food taken from the breakfast area and then left somewhere random because someone decided not to eat it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The answer to outsourcing at low wages is to expose companies that do it and to impose sanctions against them for having done it. Christian moral values really do imply that workers are worthy of their wages and that their wages ought to be fair and reasonable yielding a living that allows them to eat and acquire shelter for themselves and for their family. Christian moral values condemn exploiting workers by refusing them their entitled pay or paying them below what is needed to live. Christians who buy into the free market rhetoric that teaches paying workers the lowest rate that the market will bear are buying into an immoral system that is contrary to the teaching of Christ.

I want to add to the above by saying that if fines or other state sponsored sanctions were imposed against companies that pay unreasonably low wages to their workers in foreign nations that every effort ought to be made to give the monies taken from those companies in fines to the exploited workers in the foreign lands. The governments of comparatively wealthy nations do not need the fine monies but the underpaid workers do need it.

 

[pdudgeon]

my apologies, i posted in the wrong forum.

 

[Toro]

They're not going to replace all cashiers with "do it yourself". Why? Because they already need multiple cashiers just to get people through do it yourself lanes. There are also many people who prefer cashiers over self service. I personally am so happy that we have self service at the big WalMart here, because I have severe social anxiety and it allows me to shop without additional stress.

If you don't want something and you don't want to replace it where it belongs, all you need to do is bring it to the front. Even if you just leave it on the end of the checkout line and leave, it's better and more respectful than leaving it in a random place. I have had to leave all of my groceries in a checkout line before because I had a severe panic attack while shopping and had to leave. That way, the staff knows that this stuff needs to be put away and it isn't sitting in a corner somewhere, possibly spoiling.

Of course you can leave at any moment and they are not entitled to your money. When did I say otherwise? I was simply saying, please be respectful to the staff. I work with the general public, and have had plenty of people be rude and thoughtless towards me. It's not enjoyable, and makes me despise my job. One thing I hate is "surprises", like trash left out everywhere (with a huge trashcan within arms reach), pamphlets thrown on the floor right in front of the pamphlet rack, and food taken from the breakfast area and then left somewhere random because someone decided not to eat it.

Okay, fine. They don't replace them ALL, but at what point do they stop cutting the position?

I understand that. I have worked with the public myself. However, I didn't ever mind someone leaving something some where. Im paid regardless of if I am doing job X or having a small added task. Im not going home nor is my day any tougher by picking up an item in a business I am employed at and putting it where it belongs.

If a boss yells at an employee over something they have no control over that is on the boss, not my actions. IF the person keeps such a job where they are abused for such things.... they need to take steps of either removing that boss by complaints or by looking for new employment. IF the boss goes off on an employee for such small events..... chances are the boss would have found about a million other things to complain to them about and "left out milk" would be a simple mention and NOT the cause of such chewing out.

You don't think that an entire basket of goods was more work than a simple gallon of milk and a few other items? That cashier had to take time out of their work day to put everything back in its place.

You leave because you panic and may just happen to be at a checkout. What if you had a severe attack mid shopping? Take time to put away all items? I doubt that seriously.

You leaving a cart full of product out of panic is fine. Me leaving because I don't receive the service I demand for a company to receive my money and I am wrong?

You can think Im wrong. Fine, but I will NOT stay somewhere that refuses to treat me with respect enough to have someone deal with me face to face. Do they need every check out with a cashier at say 3am in a 24 hour store? NO. But they should have at least one cashier open.

IF they don't receive enough customers to justify a cashier. Why be 24 hours?

 

[KitKatMatt]

???

I want a person or I will leave milk and anything else I am carrying right there on the floor.

This is what I am referring to. Even if you're not having a panic attack, if you don't want your stuff and don't have time/don't want to put it int he right place, please leave it at the front.

It's totally fine to do that. It's less work because now employees don't have to run through isles to try to find stuff someone left. It's right there next to them. Less of a chance for someone to scream at them for missing something.

It's part of my job to put things away for people. It makes me feel much better if people come up to me and say "Hey, I'm sorry, but I decided I don't want these" than to randomly find a pile of stuff, or be yelled at because I didn't see a pile of stuff.

Edit: I've also had panic attacks in the middle of shopping. The exits are right in front of the checkout lines. I leave my basket next to a cashier line and quickly tell them that I'm sorry and I have to leave (even when they still have someone in the line, I say "excuse me" and inform them). My grandmother has the same problems as I do, and she's left a basket next to the cashier and then called from her car to inform them that she had to leave her groceries and she apologizes for the inconvenience.

It's just common courtesy. It's not as good as putting things back where they belong, but that's not always feasible for everyone to do for whatever reason.

 

[MehGuy]

The answer to outsourcing at low wages is to expose companies that do it and to impose sanctions against them for having done it. Christian moral values really do imply that workers are worthy of their wages and that their wages ought to be fair and reasonable yielding a living that allows them to eat and acquire shelter for themselves and for their family. Christian moral values condemn exploiting workers by refusing them their entitled pay or paying them below what is needed to live. Christians who buy into the free market rhetoric that teaches paying workers the lowest rate that the market will bear are buying into an immoral system that is contrary to the teaching of Christ.

I wish more Christians were like you.

 

[Toro]

???



This is what I am referring to. Even if you're not having a panic attack, if you don't want your stuff and don't have time/don't want to put it int he right place, please leave it at the front.

It's totally fine to do that. It's less work because now employees don't have to run through isles to try to find stuff someone left. It's right there next to them. Less of a chance for someone to scream at them for missing something.

It's part of my job to put things away for people. It makes me feel much better if people come up to me and say "Hey, I'm sorry, but I decided I don't want these" than to randomly find a pile of stuff, or be yelled at because I didn't see a pile of stuff.

Edit: I've also had panic attacks in the middle of shopping. The exits are right in front of the checkout lines. I leave my basket next to a cashier line and quickly tell them that I'm sorry and I have to leave (even when they still have someone in the line, I say "excuse me" and inform them). My grandmother has the same problems as I do, and she's left a basket next to the cashier and then called from her car to inform them that she had to leave her groceries and she apologizes for the inconvenience.

It's just common courtesy. It's not as good as putting things back where they belong, but that's not always feasible for everyone to do for whatever reason.

The point is there is no one there to deal with me. Hence the reason I am leaving, thus I am at the front or relatively close to the front. Why would I look for someone, when my problem is no one is there?

Nope, I'm not walking around to place the items back, nor am I going to look for someone when my problem is a lack of a person.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wish more Christians were like you.

Every Christian ought to hear and obey the teaching of Christ and if he or she fails then they ought to try again and again. Failure is not a reason to abandon the good things that God calls us to do and the generosity that he asks us to show to others who are in need. I am very far from an obedient generous person who actually obeys consistently what Jesus teaches yet I know it is what I am called to be and I know that the same calling is given to every Christian.

One doesn't need to be a believer to aspire to the goodness in Christ's teaching but if one does aspire to it then it may be that one will become a Christian because of the aspiring to it and trying to live it. See how you go.

 

[Toro]

God also gave us free will. So not everyone is forced to believe as Christians do.

Just because we are instructed to give. Does NOT mean we must force everyone to do as we would.

God doesn't interfere with free will, what gives us that right?

 

[MiniEmu]

I'd argue that, as Christians, we should not force people to do anything, but we can support something when we believe that not only is it something we think to be good, but something that we believe we are guided to do as Christians. Supporting something, putting effort into campaigning for change, is not forcing employers to do anything.

Ignoring the Christian duty completely for a moment:

If we, as human beings, can stand back and think "yes, someone working full time hours but receiving a wage that, in our society, is essentially a poverty wage, is perfectly acceptable", then there is something wrong. Everyone, Christian or not, has the right to educate employers, to put it out there that actually a happy workforce is a productive workforce, just as every employer has the right to put forward their points of view.

If someone is working for a poverty wage, if they cannot access what they need to maintain a minimum standard of living, when they must be supplemented by additional help in the form of food banks and benefits, there is an issue. I can only speak from a UK centric point of view, but someone working full time hours (35+) who struggles to pay their outgoings not because they're being frivolous with their money, but because their wage has not kept up with the increase in housing costs, then there is an issue. An issue which, in any society which deems itself to care about those within it, is unacceptable.

A society only works when workers doing unskilled and seemingly unvalued jobs are able to find work that sustains them. You have to look out for all your workers, regardless of what they do, otherwise what is the point? Ignoring belief, and may God forgive me ignoring the guidance of God, you have to consider the cost of living for your employees when taking into account their wages. If your low skilled workers are struggling to afford even a room share within reasonable commuting distance of your work, then you're going to struggle to find employees. That or the living standards for low skilled, low paid employees is going to deteriorate rapidly (which is happening in London, the state of some accommodation here is truly reverting back to the days of slums), in either situation you're going to end up with problems. Problems that a lot of employers try to cover up with quick fixes, rather than taking any genuine improvements.

 

[MehGuy]

In the story of Lot And The Fires Of Hell..

Lot meets a rich man who claimed he was right with God.
He asked what did he do to suffer this torture? Then one of the demons whipping him said, "you lived like a pig while many went hungry". "You were in possession of things that could have saved people's lives". "Yet you did not, you are the same as a mass murderer."

 

[blackribbon]

So basically your post's thesis is that you want to see people paid very low wages so that your school fees and taxes are low? I wonder who that squares with these words from holy scripture: For the scriptures say, It is not right to keep the ox from taking the grain when he is crushing it. And, The worker has a right to his reward. (1 Timothy 5:18).

a low wage is relative to the cost of living...I don't think raising the minimum wage will add any spending power to the minimum wage worker...

I also don't like the government deciding the value of a job... some jobs are simply not worth what ever the current minimum wage is... and many jobs are never offered for this reason

 

[blackribbon]

The problem arises when the single mother working at McDonald's is trying to raise raise her two children on minimum wage gets an artifical "raise" by increasing the minimum wage to $15 dollars/hour sounds like a increase in her lifestyle...at least until her childcare costs go up because the daycare is now required to pay all its workers $15/hr and her rent goes up to meet the high tax rates in her neighborhood to meet the city's higher payroll expenses for required services. How exactly has she benefitted? Chances are she will still be just scrapping by even with the fatter paycheck. I am simply saying that increasing the minimum wage wont make life easier for anyone...it only gives the illusion that things are better.

 

[blackribbon]

Now if she works hard and applies for an assistant manager's role and actually gets a raise that doesn't also increase her child care costs or the basic tax rate base in her neighborhood, then she really wins.

Or maybe takes her newly acquired "people skills" and cash register experience to the local grocery store that pays a bit more, then she also wins.

 

[Albion]

This is so misunderstood. Most people are not against the wealthy having their money honestly! What most people are against is when they get out of paying their share of taxes with loop holes that many times ends up with them paying zero taxes!

They do resent that, although these rich people pay the vast majority of the income taxes while the poor pay none of it and instead get money sent to them. But we also know that many, many people simply think that if the rich have more than they do, most of it should be distributed to everyone else.

just imagine if that story is true what would happen today if Jesus told so many of the billionaires and millionaires to sell all they have and give to the poor??? Just asking Jesus must had thought that was morally right??

Morally right that the rich give ON THEIR OWN. That's quite a different matter from the government confiscating it and giving it out to other people.

 

[MoreCoffee]

a low wage is relative to the cost of living...I don't think raising the minimum wage will add any spending power to the minimum wage worker...

I also don't like the government deciding the value of a job... some jobs are simply not worth what ever the current minimum wage is... and many jobs are never offered for this reason

If you're referring to $15/hour as the minimum wage then we're both aware, I think, that it applies in Los Angeles in the USA and hence is not what anybody has advocated as the minimum wage for some other place in the world that has a lower cost of living (Bangladesh, for example). Having disposed of that part of your post the next part; namely that raising the minimum wage will not (in your stated opinion) add any spending power to the minimum wage worker. Try it and see. I am confident that your claim will prove false.

AS for your post stating that you dislike the government (the law of the land) setting a minimum wage, so what? Vote against it. There is nothing immoral about the law of the land defining the minimum wage that must be paid to a worker.

 

[KitKatMatt]

They do resent that, although these rich people pay the vast majority of the income taxes while the poor pay none of it and instead get money sent to them. But we also know that many, many people simply think that if the rich have more than they do, most of it should be distributed to everyone else.

Someone needs to tell the tax office that I don't need to pay tax because I'm poor, ASAP!

I pay taxes. I have a full time job. I'm also eligible for food stamps because I don't make enough to support myself. I'm terribly lucky that my family lets me live with them rent free, all my money is spent on insurance, medication, gas, and food.

If I didn't have my family, I would literally be living out of my car even though I'm working 40 hours a week. Where's my government check?

 

[redblue22]

There was a time I couldn't afford food for a month. Wouldn't you know it, a girl who had hit on me for sex was at a food drive as a volunteer at a church. She wouldn't help me. Nonetheless, I got my food. The guy she passed me on to was a jerk to needy people.