$15 Dollar per hour minimum wage your Thoughts?

[MoreCoffee]

In Australia the minimum wage is $16 and some cents per hour.

 

[grasping the after wind]

There is a difference between inflation and currency inflation.

It's important not to confuse definition with causation. That definition is not entirely accurate, though. When I inflate a balloon, this means I put more air or helium into it. The balloon's size is directly proportional to the amount of air put into it. In the strictest definition and that coincides with the exact causation - on a macro level, inflation can only occur with the printing (digital or otherwise) of more money.
Again, this has to do with expenses (like very costly wars) that governments must spend money into existence to pay for.

I think it is more important not to confuse currency inflation (Which is what you are talking about) with price inflation ( which is what blackribbon is talking about). Currency inflation can cause price inflation but price inflation also occurs with either a general increase in demand or a general decrease in supply without currency inflation. None of that is actually applicable to a case where the market is being artificially controlled as the controlling force sets prices and wages so instead of inflation one deals with shortages and surpluses of goods and services . When some outside force only partially controls the market by arbitrarily setting a price for a service we no longer have a true free market at all and the law of supply and demand no longer applies in the same way as it would under a true free market but it still applies unlike in a completely controlled system. If the supply of willing workers in relation to demand for their services were the reason for a price increase for those services we could gauge what the outcome would be but arbitrarily setting a figure that must be paid for services under all conditions makes that an impossibility. since the minimum wage only sets a price but does not mandate hours or employment, setting that wage could cause any number of unintended consequences and may well do more harm than good both to the employee the advocates of any particular wage figure claim they are interested in helping and to the economy that is being arbitrarily forced to accept a wage for the least demanded services that is higher than would be the case if arrived at by a free exchange of goods and services.

 

[david14433]

It's about time, the GDP and worker productivity have gone up for decades while the minimum wage hasn't gone up in tandem with it. It's unfortunate that they have taken so long to start to embrace this long needed wage hike.

 

[Look Up]

There is a difference between inflation and currency inflation.


I think it is more important not to confuse currency inflation (Which is what you are talking about) with price inflation ( which is what blackribbon is talking about). Currency inflation can cause price inflation but price inflation also occurs with either a general increase in demand or a general decrease in supply without currency inflation. None of that is actually applicable to a case where the market is being artificially controlled as the controlling force sets prices and wages so instead of inflation one deals with shortages and surpluses of goods and services . When some outside force only partially controls the market by arbitrarily setting a price for a service we no longer have a true free market at all and the law of supply and demand no longer applies in the same way as it would under a true free market but it still applies unlike in a completely controlled system. If the supply of willing workers in relation to demand for their services were the reason for a price increase for those services we could gauge what the outcome would be but arbitrarily setting a figure that must be paid for services under all conditions makes that an impossibility. since the minimum wage only sets a price but does not mandate hours or employment, setting that wage could cause any number of unintended consequences and may well do more harm than good both to the employee the advocates of any particular wage figure claim they are interested in helping and to the economy that is being arbitrarily forced to accept a wage for the least demanded services that is higher than would be the case if arrived at by a free exchange of goods and services.

I was hoping someone would remind us of the distinction and relationship between currency and price inflation(/deflation). I have termed "currency inflation" (more broadly "currency manipulation") a form of "legal theft" even if there are popular political pressures in its favor. And it seems a form of economic "slight of hand" since miscalculated or missed so often; a currency spade so often is not quite a currency spade.

As to minimum wage, it seems to function as a sort of political (I use this word rather than "economic") compromise between competing powers and interests with "any number of unintended consequences" (as you wrote, and certainly some negative). It thus seems neither all good nor all bad (I'm not here claiming where the balance might lie), depending in part on micro-economic circumstances. A fundamental problem, my vague intuition tells me, seems to be that we can trust neither "free" market forces nor the political powers that claim to level the playing field nor monied interests. Nor human nature. It is not that such entities always misbehave; it is that we cannot trust that they always will, and indeed there seem no shortage of anecdotes of misbehavior from all possible sides. "As the world turns" (to borrow terminology from an old soap opera, I believe), a wonder is that it turns at all. What might help in my view is a bit more respect for the rules of Jesus, a bit more fear of God, a bit more adherence to the Golden Rule even if there are debates as to how to do that in some applications. Generally speaking, bondage to Jesus encourages "a free exchange of goods and services" (and an honest currency).

 

[El Rey David]

Everybody wants a raise for themselves but nobody wants a raise for anybody else. Wal-Mart family members are worth 50 billion dollars each but some how raising the minimum wage a little would break us. It's people like the Wal-Mart family members and the billionaire Koch brothers who are hurting the economy not the working poor.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Minimum wage should increase, it hasn't even really done so with the natural inflation. Depending on what part of the country you live in, minimum wage is not always livable wage, even for single people. Most people at minimum wage have to work more than one job, especially if they have a child. The increase to $15 would cost, depending on which fast food corporation, 1.5-8 billion. They say this will cause an increase in price, and thus a decrease in sales because gosh forbid the people at the top take any kind of paycut, the stock value drops, they simply make less money as a company but still make profit.

 

[keith99]

Last week I got a notice from The Department of Water and Power. They were installing a smart meter. I can pay $5 a month to opt out and have my old meter read by a (fallible) human being.

I'm betting meter readers are not so happy about their raises any more.

Keep raising the cost of labor and alternatives become financially attractive.

 

[redblue22]

because smart readers just magically came into existence.

 

[blackribbon]

The market place doesn't work in a way that increasing the minimum wage worker's salary comes out of the CEOs or other top worker's pay...it comes out of the product being sold and hence is passed on to the consumer....end result is a higher price for the same product. If the product is a McDonald's hamburger, then the people paying the higher minimum wage are the people who eat McDonald's hamburgers. My wealthier friends don't tend to frequent McDonalds. So who is now paying for the wage increase?...and the $6 value meal now costs $10-12 dollars for the exact same thing.

Class envy won't be satisifed by raising the minimum wage. Giving people better skills so they don't have to work minimum wage jobs will do a much better job of increasing people's incomes. I never have worked for minimum wage except for a couple temporary jobs where I was doing the owners a favor from time to time. I had skills that had value and I was paid accordingly. My 18 year old son started his first job at slightly more than minimum wage...again, because he had education and training before he got the job (oil change technician). My 16 year old daughter gets paid $12/hour to teach figure skating lessons to little beginners. She gets paid minimum wage to work as "rink monitor" for the open skates...but that doesn't require any skill beyond decent "people skills" and the ability to be stable on ice skates.

Exactly what kind of special skills does it take to assemble a hamburger....especially an assembly line hamburger? why should they get paid $15/hour? you don't get paid according the lifestyle that you want to live but rather according to the value of the job....leave the hamburger flipping jobs to the teenagers who are not living on their income and at the very least, learn enough about your company to move up to a higher paying store manager position where you might actually start earning a "living wage". Minimum wage jobs are not intended to live on but rather offer an entry level place into the work field. If you have a minimum wage job, learn what it takes to move to the next stage in your field...that is how you get a pay increase.

 

[sundewgrower]

$15 per hour seems high for minimum wage, as usually full time minimum wage jobs are typical a transitory or otherwise temporary existence.
Skills are required to be paid and if you are one of many then the pay will be low,
I believe it is the company's own agenda and prerogative if they want to pay $15 an hour.
If I want better service, a lesser chance of getting sick, and so forth then I might go to a place where a waitress makes $25 per hour with tips.
Or if I want it fast and cheap then I might hit up a fast food joint. Then within that there is the variance of more or less expensive.
The pay for labor will effect the end product, so an increase in pay will decrease the value.
Personally I can't make it on $15 very easily here in Hawai'i but most my age consider it a decent laborer position.
I just see and think you need marketable skills to make it work.
I am in control of my business and it's my livelyhood. It might be a few times higher than minimum wage, but liability, skills I've had to learn, the thoughts of work all waking hours, and stuff. The pay might not be good at minimum wage but you don't have a whole lot of responsibility other than showing up, working, then leaving along with some typical benefits.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How about you try living on $600/week and see how you manage your rent, food, clothing, power, transport and other expenses?

 

[Toro]

Keep raising the cost of labor and alternatives become financially attractive.

Yep, pretty much.

Outsourcing tends to be a favorite. As for the service industry. Just look at the "self check out" in a grocery store for example.

I use the cashier because I already do my job. Im not going to do it myself in a sense doing someone elses job, giving the store an easy way out to maximize profits.

I want a person or I will leave milk and anything else I am carrying right there on the floor. At least with jerk moves like that it ensures SOMEONE has to have a job to put such things back or they spoil causing damage to company profits.

Im old school. I prefer a person over "Press two for English", sorry 21st century.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yep, pretty much.

Outsourcing tends to be a favorite. As for the service industry. Just look at the "self check out" in a grocery store for example.

I use the cashier because I already do my job. Im not going to do it myself in a sense doing someone elses job, giving the store an easy way out to maximize profits.

I want a person or I will leave milk and anything else I am carrying right there on the floor. At least with jerk moves like that it ensures SOMEONE has to have a job to put such things back or they spoil causing damage to company profits.

Im old school. I prefer a person over "Press two for English", sorry 21st century.

Well, one could keep the minimum wage down low enough so it cannot be differentiated from slavery then no alternatives will be looked for because nothing will be cheaper. Great recipe for stagnant technology, poverty, social immobility, and just peachy for the cementing of inequality. Way to go if you want a return to the old ways of nobility and serfdom.

 

[HexidecimalInput]

There is a difference between inflation and currency inflation.


I think it is more important not to confuse currency inflation (Which is what you are talking about) with price inflation ( which is what blackribbon is talking about). Currency inflation can cause price inflation but price inflation also occurs with either a general increase in demand or a general decrease in supply without currency inflation. None of that is actually applicable to a case where the market is being artificially controlled as the controlling force sets prices and wages so instead of inflation one deals with shortages and surpluses of goods and services . When some outside force only partially controls the market by arbitrarily setting a price for a service we no longer have a true free market at all and the law of supply and demand no longer applies in the same way as it would under a true free market but it still applies unlike in a completely controlled system. If the supply of willing workers in relation to demand for their services were the reason for a price increase for those services we could gauge what the outcome would be but arbitrarily setting a figure that must be paid for services under all conditions makes that an impossibility. since the minimum wage only sets a price but does not mandate hours or employment, setting that wage could cause any number of unintended consequences and may well do more harm than good both to the employee the advocates of any particular wage figure claim they are interested in helping and to the economy that is being arbitrarily forced to accept a wage for the least demanded services that is higher than would be the case if arrived at by a free exchange of goods and services.

I'm not sure I want to get into the mechanics and if's and how's and maybe's that are left to central bankers and governments (and yes, I agree that the current systems in place in most countries do not represent a free market, which is a whole other subject). However, I did want to respond to your initial statement on the difference between currency and price inflation.
Price inflation doesn't really exist because price is not a thing, it is only a measuring tool. We use inches or miles or kilometers to measure distance and we use price to measure perceived value in a marketplace, however both of those are units of measurement, not a commodity or even a representative commodity like currency is. Thus, a rising price cannot be said to be "inflated" any more than the pressure per square inch (psi) of a tyre. They are only measurements, not things.

 

[Toro]

Well, one could keep the minimum wage down low enough so it cannot be differentiated from slavery then no alternatives will be looked for because nothing will be cheaper. Great recipe for stagnant technology, poverty, social immobility, and just peachy for the cementing of inequality. Way to go if you want a return to the old ways of nobility and serfdom.

If wage increase solves poverty. Why is there any left? This isn't the first occurrence of such a thing.

The truth is it might be a minor reprieve, but will change NOTHING as soon as everything else catches up.... as it always has.

Wage increase is little more than a band-aid on a bullet wound.

You want to talk about stagnant economy. What happens when the companies that ARE in America decide to go the outsourcing trend to China/South America? You think an economy strengthens when jobs disappear or less is produced?

You think the CEOs will take a pay cut so they can pay their "low level" employees more?

 

[KitKatMatt]

I want a person or I will leave milk and anything else I am carrying right there on the floor. At least with jerk moves like that it ensures SOMEONE has to have a job to put such things back or they spoil causing damage to company profits.

Leaving milk on the floor won't ensure that "someone has to have a job". No one is going to hire a designated milk-returner. All it does is makes someone who is already employed have a more annoying day because their manager is going to scream at them to stop performing their regular duties and pick up a randomly placed milk.

Please don't leave food sitting around in a store. Either put them back, or bring them to the front and tell someone you decided not to purchase them so that they can put them away immediately rather than making them unpleasant Easter eggs around the store.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If wage increase solves poverty. Why is there any left? This isn't the first occurrence of such a thing.

The truth is it might be a minor reprieve, but will change NOTHING as soon as everything else catches up.... as it always has.

Wage increase is little more than a band-aid on a bullet wound.

You want to talk about stagnant economy. What happens when the companies that ARE in America decide to go the outsourcing trend to China/South America? You think an economy strengthens when jobs disappear or less is produced?

You think the CEOs will take a pay cut so they can pay their "low level" employees more?

Obviously wage increases alleviates poverty as is evident in western nations where wages are high compared to, say, Africa. Clearly paying people very low wages isn't the path to economic and social mobility is it? Obviously poorly paid impoverished people cannot participate in a user-pays free-market economy where education is bought for cash and the same with housing and access to heath care and medicines. Especially when the free-market is dominated by wealthy individuals and corporations that block access to those benefits (health care, education, housing).

 

[MehGuy]

Wage increase would be good.

Put in a very high tax for outsourcing. Make it not worth their while.

 

[Gnarwhal]

How about you try living on $600/week and see how you manage your rent, food, clothing, power, transport and other expenses?

It's certainly a challenge. Even when I was making $9.96/hour (after five years of flawless employment that started at 8.50) and working 50+ hours per week, I wasn't making enough to cover the gamut of living expenses. Since a one bedroom apartment here start out at $600-800/month. Even though I was making roughly $1,700/month after taxes, it still wasn't enough to cover everything.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's certainly a challenge. Even when I was making $9.96/month (after five years of flawless employment that started at 8.50) and working 50+ hours per week, I wasn't making enough to cover the gamut of living expenses. Since a one bedroom apartment here start out at $600-800/month. Even though I was making roughly $1,700/month after taxes, it still wasn't enough to cover everything.

When I was living in Lafayette, CA, I paid 1,300/month rent but I was earning $15,000/month after tax so the cost was not too bad and I had plenty of money to spend on what I wanted rather than on the necessities of life. That translates to about $90/hour after tax. But even so, a CEO gets well over ten times that much and some get 100 times more. Can anybody's work be worth that much while the people who make the electricity grid work and who grow the food we eat get $15/hour and less?