How many dozens of Christians did creationism drive away this past hour?

[LoricaLady]

HITCH SLAP You said, "Do you find it as amusing as I do that creationism allows one to assume such a degree of arrogance, as to actually assert that the scientific method the world over is wrong?
I think that Hovind has irreparably damaged an entire generation of Christians and destroyed their critical and cognitive abilities.
Yet science is blithely unaware of these ignorant opinions, and marches forward."

No one even mentioned Ken Hovind. Please learn to read more carefully and please learn how the scientific method actually works. Of course no one is saying the scientific method is wrong. Creationists are all in favor of it! Do you realize that in the scientific method there has to be an experiment? Here are the kinds of experiments that evolutionists have done to prove their theory, and btw they have never had an experiment that demonstrated anything true about evolution.

1. Thousands and thousands of fruit flies were bombarded with radiation and other toxic substances to get them to "evolve." The result? Thousands and thousands of mostly deformed fruit flies - none of which were more viable than the original and all of whom stayed....fruit flies. Somehow that's supposed to prove that evolution happens, however, .

2. Miller and Urey created some amino acids in a test tube. First of all, they were using - hello? - intelligent design and intelligently designed high tech lab equipment which is not possible in evolution. Nevertheless there were text books written saying they proved life could come from inorganic matter. Buuuuuuull. The kinds of amino acids they got were the wrong kind for supporting life. In fact, they would kill life. Further, even if they had gotten the right kinds of amino acids, so what? Amino acids are not alive and they have no ability whatsoever to cause anything to have life. They are also just a tiny part of a living cell which is as complex as a block of factories, with little nano technology machines making other nano technology machines. Where are the amino acids going to get all those other parts and organize them? And oh, btw, for all those who want to dodge Qs about the evidenceless and antiscientific primal pond and say, "Well! Evolutionists don't do abiogenesis!" you can see that is exactly what M & U were trying to do!

3. Experiments have been conducted on things like bacteria and yeast to show they can be changed and this is supposed to prove evolution. No, it shows they can be changed. It shows change does NOT lead to evolution because the bacteria and yeast are still 100% bacteria and yeast!

4. Craig Ventner is claimed to have created an artificial cell in his lab, purportedly showing, again, how life came about. Buuuuull again. First he used an already living cell and simply changed it. This, too, was of course done with intelligent design and high tech lab equipment. He still didn't create any life at all!

You are pretty sure you know all about science and are a whiz at critical thinking. So, great, I left some Qs on page 14. You will find them starting at about 1/3 of the page down. Please be so kind as to help a l'il fundie out and answer those Qs so I can see the evolutionary light. Problem is so far no one has even tried. Instead they change the subject and toss out red herrings. Maybe you can do better? But you won't answer them either - no evo. fans ever do - because evolution has no answers because evolution is pure pseudo science.

 

[crjmurray]

HITCH SLAP You said, "Do you find it as amusing as I do that creationism allows one to assume such a degree of arrogance, as to actually assert that the scientific method the world over is wrong?
I think that Hovind has irreparably damaged an entire generation of Christians and destroyed their critical and cognitive abilities.
Yet science is blithely unaware of these ignorant opinions, and marches forward."

No one even mentioned Ken Hovind. Please learn to read more carefully and please learn how the scientific method actually works. Of course no one is saying the scientific method is wrong. Creationists are all in favor of it! Do you realize that in the scientific method there has to be an experiment? Here are the kinds of experiments that evolutionists have done to prove their theory, and btw they have never had an experiment that demonstrated anything true about evolution.

1. Thousands and thousands of fruit flies were bombarded with radiation and other toxic substances to get them to "evolve." The result? Thousands and thousands of mostly deformed fruit flies - none of which were more viable than the original and all of whom stayed....fruit flies. Somehow that's supposed to prove that evolution happens, however, .

2. Miller and Urey created some amino acids in a test tube. First of all, they were using - hello? - intelligent design and intelligently designed high tech lab equipment which is not possible in evolution. Nevertheless there were text books written saying they proved life could come from inorganic matter. Buuuuuuull. The kinds of amino acids they got were the wrong kind for supporting life. In fact, they would kill life. Further, even if they had gotten the right kinds of amino acids, so what? Amino acids are not alive and they have no ability whatsoever to cause anything to have life. They are also just a tiny part of a living cell which is as complex as a block of factories, with little nano technology machines making other nano technology machines. Where are the amino acids going to get all those other parts and organize them? And oh, btw, for all those who want to dodge Qs about the evidenceless and antiscientific primal pond and say, "Well! Evolutionists don't do abiogenesis!" you can see that is exactly what M & U were trying to do!

3. Experiments have been conducted on things like bacteria and yeast to show they can be changed and this is supposed to prove evolution. No, it shows they can be changed. It shows change does NOT lead to evolution because the bacteria and yeast are still 100% bacteria and yeast!

4. Craig Ventner is claimed to have created an artificial cell in his lab, purportedly showing, again, how life came about. Buuuuull again. First he used an already living cell and simply changed it. This, too, was of course done with intelligent design and high tech lab equipment. He still didn't create any life at all!

You are pretty sure you know all about science and are a whiz at critical thinking. So, great, I left some Qs on page 14. You will find them starting at about 1/3 of the page down. Please be so kind as to help a l'il fundie out and answer those Qs so I can see the evolutionary light. Problem is so far no one has even tried. Instead they change the subject and toss out red herrings. Maybe you can do better? But you won't answer them either - no evo. fans ever do - because evolution has no answers because evolution is pure pseudo science.

You are adorable.

 

[morse86]

Once christian, you cannot just be not christian. Once the spirit is reborn, it is done and it is everlasting.

John 10:28:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Tell me what this thing is, and where it is, rather than what it isn't and where it isn't. Got anything?

He is the greatest conceivable Being that created the universe and everything in it. He exists in a realm which is outside of the natural world. It is impossible for us to know conclusively whether God exists and what he is like unless he takes the initiative and reveals himself.

Indeed - it's existence in known by observation and measurement, repeatable by others. How do we do this for gods?

We have millions of people confirming the observation of God in their lives. They observe His actions in their lives and find that He does the same in others lives as well, thus repeating the observation of the individual. We can observe Israel becoming a nation once again as predicted. We can observe Israel taking a dry desolate land and creating a prosperous land once again.

Bible passage: Isaiah 41:18-20

Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC

Fulfilled: late 1900s

In Isaiah 41:18-20, the prophet's talk of a future restoration of Israel coincides with an occurrence in modern Israel - the construction of a vast irrigation system to improve farming. The lack of available water, including rain, is one reason why Israel had been a desolate, unproductive land during much of the past 2000 years. But, during the 1900s, when many Jews returned to their ancient homeland, they built a network of irrigation systems. And during the past century, more than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel.

Here is Isaiah 41:18-20

I will make rivers flow on barren heights, and springs within the valleys. I will turn the desert into pools of water, and the parched ground into springs. I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set pines in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together, so that people may see and know, may consider and understand, that the hand of the Lord has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it.

Bible passage: Isaiah 27:6

Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC

Fulfilled: late 1900s

In Isaiah 27:6, the prophet said Israel would one day blossom and fill the world with fruit. This prophecy has been at least partially fulfilled, literally and symbolically. Today, the land of Israel, which had been barren for centuries, is a leading producer of agricultural products, exporting food to many countries. This prophecy also has been fulfilled symbolically with the worldwide spread of Christianity. Christianity, which began with Jesus in Israel, now has about 2 billion followers worldwide.

Bible passage: Isaiah 43:5-6

Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC

Fulfilled: late 1900s

In Isaiah 43:5-6, the prophet Isaiah said that the Jews would return to their homeland from the east, the west, the north and the south. Isaiah lived about 2700 years ago. At that time, the Assyrians had forced many Jews in the northern kingdom of Israel into exile. Those Jews were taken to other areas in the Middle East. Then, about 1900 years ago, the Romans destroyed the city of Jerusalem and killed and exiled hundreds of thousands of Jews. Since then, the Jews have been scattered to virtually every country in the world. But, during the past century, millions of Jews have returned to Israel, from the east, the west, the north and the south.

From the east: Many Jews living in the Middle East moved to Israel by the early 1900s.

From the west: During mid-1900s, hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the West (Europe and the United States) began moving to Israel.

From the north: The former Soviet Union (Russia) is north of Israel. It refused to allow its Jewish residents to move to Israel. But, after years of pressure from other countries, Russia finally began to allow Jews to return to Israel during the 1980s. So far, hundreds of thousands of Russian Jews have moved to Israel.

From the south: Ethiopia, which is south of Israel, also refused to allow its Jews to return to Israel. But, in 1985, Israel struck a deal with Ethiopia's communist government to allow the Jews of Ethiopia to move to Israel. On the weekend of May 25, 1991, 14,500 Ethiopian Jews were airlifted to Israel.

Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the north (Russia) and the south (Ethiopia) would have to be persuaded to give up their Jews. Many countries pressured Russia for years before it began to allow its Jews to leave. And Ethiopia had to be paid a ransom to allow its Jews to leave.

Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the Jews would return "from the ends of the earth," and Isaiah said that many centuries before the Jews had been scattered to the ends of the earth. During the past 100 years, Jews living as far east as China, as far west as the West Coast of the United States, as far north as Scandinavia, and as far south as South Africa, have moved to Israel.

For me imaginary usually results in being unable to show that something exists outside of my imagination. For your god, that burden is on you. You do know about the burden of evidence, do you not?

I observe a multitude of evidence that the Bible claims I should. From the apparent design of the universe, apparent design in life forms, the prophecies above all confirm that God is not a figment of my imagination. You on the other hand must deny that the design in the universe is real but rather insist that it is imagined and an illusion, you must deny the design in life forms and believe they are just imagined and are illusions , you must deny the reality of your own free will as an illusion, you must deny that Israel's prophecies are due to God. It is you who lives in an imaginary world which is according to you only an illusion.

 

[justlookinla]

Has the question of the OP been answered?

 

[Willtor]

i quite agree, people who are religious have had to alter their beliefs as they have accepted the so-called science.
Many of us do not accept such things as the theory of evolution as good science.

But it isn't just evolution. It's all of modern science. Creationists reject basically all of it: Geology, physics, astronomy, biology... You've simply rejected science, wholesale. Evolution is just a drop in the bucket. And altering beliefs as new reasons present themselves is simply what people do.

evolution is accepted by those who reject the teachings of the Bible.
Once you have rejected the Bible, what else is there?

Evolution is accepted by many who reject the teachings of the Bible. It is also accepted by many who accept the teachings of the Bible.

 

[AV1611VET]

Has the question of the OP been answered?

Yes.

Q: How many dozens of Christians did creationism drive away this past hour, at the rate of 366 per hour? *
A: 30.5 **

* or 366 per hour -

** 366 / 12 = 30.5

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Yet Christianity has increased worldwide by 1.3% - despite illogical claims it has decreased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth

see absolute growth section.

So we can assume that any claims of reduction worldwide are just that - mere claims. But we could assume that evolution has driven 1.3% to Christianity as people get tired of the deception.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yet Christianity has increased worldwide by 1.3% - despite illogical claims it has decreased.

I don't think some people think in terms of net gain or loss.

Especially if it means they can make a negative point about creationism.

 

[Merlin]

Which would make them not Christian. Don't beat around the bush. Don't play games. You're saying that TEs aren't Christians.

In my Bible there is a book called Romans.
In chapter 10 in verse 9 it,s says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord of your life and Believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead then you will be saved .it does not require that you believe in the bible.

 

[Chinbits]

As many of us here know, Barna research* has shown that the denial of scientific data about reality is one of main reasons ex-Christians give for why they left Christianity. A major (perhaps biggest) source of this reality denial in churches is creationism.

Now we have data as to how many people are leaving Christianity in the US.

It turns out to be over 1% , or over 3 million people each year. That's nearly 10,000 each day, or 366 per hour - about a person every 10 seconds. In the time it took you to read this far, another 5 people left their church, never to return. Christians lose ground, 'nones' soar in new portrait of US religion - Religion News Service

Creationism is, of course, only part of why they leave. But how big a part, on average? If it's only 10%, then that's still about 40 people a day leaving due to creationism. If creationism makes up most of the reason, then that could be as high as hundreds of people a day.

What do you think? You can vote for your estimate.

In Christ-

Papias

*Barna data says that around 25% cite this as a reason they left - among teens. https://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/528-six-reasons-young-christians-leave-church

I'm sure that creationism specifically accounts for Christians leaving their faith. I think the 'debate' between creationism and evolution has greatly contributed to it. Christians who learn about evolution often times have their eyes opened, and start asking questions about their faith which leads them to doubt or utterly walk away from it. That was the case for me, at least.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Um, if you read the OP, you can see that it's hundreds every hour. So that's, over the past 7 years, 24 million Americans. Out of 300 million Americans, that's a drop in Christians from 78% to 70%. Since that was a year ago, the % Christian is now ~69%.

Except the decrease is 2.9% and the number that did not respond is 2.9%. Also some became Muslim, Hindu, etc. - not left belief in God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth#America

Only .9% became atheists or non-believers in America - so the facts really do not fit the claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

"A 2012 study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life reports that just 2.4% of the whole US population are atheists even though the number of religiously unaffiliated has grown from 15% to just under 20% from 2007 to 2012."

Again, I guess it all depends on which poll and who was polled huh? Statistics can in reality say anything you want - depending on how one phrases the questions. Guess it depends if they associate themselves with a specific religion or just believe.

So if only 2.4% of the entire population doesn't believe in a higher power in one form or another - that rather makes it a minority would you not say?

"Globally, atheists and the nonreligious are concentrated in Asia and the Pacific with over 76% of all the irreligious or nonreligious people in the world residing in those regions. In Europe, the nonreligious make up 12.5% of the population and in North America they make up 5% of the population. In Africa and South America, atheists are typically in the single digits."

 

[Hank]

I'm sure that creationism specifically accounts for Christians leaving their faith. I think the 'debate' between creationism and evolution has greatly contributed to it. Christians who learn about evolution often times have their eyes opened, and start asking questions about their faith which leads them to doubt or utterly walk away from it. That was the case for me, at least.

Interesting.
I quote a less dramatic survey with current stats.
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/
If you do that math, you end up with about 80 US people leaving their church, per hour. Or based on that survey between 2 to 8 million US people left Christianity from 2007 to 2014.

I case one wonders, why did I leave? Let's say Other Reason; Creationism was not it

 

[Papias]

Interesting.
I quote a less dramatic survey with current stats.
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/
If you do that math, you end up with about 80 US people leaving their church, per hour. Or based on that survey between 2 to 8 million US people left Christianity from 2007 to 2014.

Um, hank, that's the same exact survey. If you do the math, that's 78% to 70%, or an 8% drop. With 320 Million Americans, that's about 25 million ex-Christians. So thats 25M/7years /365 /24 hours per day = about 400 Christians leaving the church per hour.

I case one wonders, why did I leave? Let's say Other Reason; Creationism was not it

The cited Barna poll showed that Creationism is a top reason mentioned. If you think it was something other than creationism, then feel free to cite data.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Hank]

Um, hank, that's the same exact survey. If you do the math, that's 78% to 70%, or an 8% drop. With 320 Million Americans, that's about 25 million ex-Christians. So thats 25M/7years /365 /24 hours per day = about 400 Christians leaving the church per hour.




The cited Barna poll showed that Creationism is a top reason mentioned. If you think it was something other than creationism, then feel free to cite data.

In Christ-

Papias

Sorry, I did not realize we get different data from the same article.
Here is my math:
Average - 5 millions lost between 2007 to 2014
5 000 000 / 7 years / 365 days / 24 hours = 81.5 per hour

As for provable data other than creationism I have none! I think it would depend where one grew up and lived, thus just one voice here giving one other option.
I grew up Jehovah's Witness (they take the Bible very literal and even have their own version), brought people into the sect since age 10. And was strongly encouraged to study the Bible, big mistake on their end; ended up as Catholic. Reason for leaving them, no sign or hint of god. I am still with the Church b.t.w., there is no way I'll give up long standing friendships for my lack of belief and vise verse.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry, I did not realize we get different data from the same article.
Here is my math:
Average - 5 millions lost between 2007 to 2014
5 000 000 / 7 years / 365 days / 24 hours = 81.5 per hour

As for provable data other than creationism I have none! I think it would depend where one grew up and lived, thus just one voice here giving one other option.
I grew up Jehovah's Witness (they take the Bible very literal and even have their own version), brought people into the sect since age 10. And was strongly encouraged to study the Bible, big mistake on their end; ended up as Catholic. Reason for leaving them, no sign or hint of god. I am still with the Church b.t.w., there is no way I'll give up long standing friendships for my lack of belief and vise verse.

Welcome to CF, Hank!

Glad to have you!

Roll up your sleeves and jump right in here!

The water is nice and warm!

 

[equal-minded]

First, this post brought me back to this site after seven years of inactivity. I'm honestly surprised my account is still valid.

That aside, I'm not much good at the math/statistics, so I'm afraid I can't contribute to that, but my recent experience might have some bearing on the conversation.

I was, until two weeks ago, the Youth Pastor at a Southern Baptist church in north-central Ohio. I was pressured by the other pastors to resign after they became convinced that I rejected the doctrine of Inerrancy (for the record, I do believe in inerrancy) due to my belief in Old-Earth Creation. How the age of the earth affects the accuracy of the Biblical account, I haven't been able to figure out yet, but the fact remains that I find myself cast out and disgraced due to "doctrinal differences."

I sure hope my story is an outlier, but if one church is ready to chase a pastor out over creation, how alienated must non-Christians/skeptics feel when creationism is preached with pseudo/no science? Small wonder so many people cite creationism as a reason they left the church.

 

[justlookinla]

First, this post brought me back to this site after seven years of inactivity. I'm honestly surprised my account is still valid.

That aside, I'm not much good at the math/statistics, so I'm afraid I can't contribute to that, but my recent experience might have some bearing on the conversation.

I was, until two weeks ago, the Youth Pastor at a Southern Baptist church in north-central Ohio. I was pressured by the other pastors to resign after they became convinced that I rejected the doctrine of Inerrancy (for the record, I do believe in inerrancy) due to my belief in Old-Earth Creation. How the age of the earth affects the accuracy of the Biblical account, I haven't been able to figure out yet, but the fact remains that I find myself cast out and disgraced due to "doctrinal differences."

I sure hope my story is an outlier, but if one church is ready to chase a pastor out over creation, how alienated must non-Christians/skeptics feel when creationism is preached with pseudo/no science? Small wonder so many people cite creationism as a reason they left the church.

In your opinion, did they simply leave the religious institution we call 'church' or did they actually deny God?

 

[AV1611VET]

I sure hope my story is an outlier, but if one church is ready to chase a pastor out over creation,

Make that two.

 

[Willtor]

Negative a billion at least. Who thinks they aren't created(made)?

Creation != Creationism. The article indicates that the latter is a major cause of people leaving the Church because it contradicts the evidence.