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Christ did not come to downsize diminish abolish or destroy the LAW of God

BobRyan

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Heb 10 states that that the shadow system of animal sacrifices were completed with the sacrifice of Christ - yet as Heb 8 points out the moral law remains written on the heart and mind.

Heb 7 states that the shadow system of earthly priests is completed and the heavenly ministry of Christ as priest replaces it - but as Heb 8 points out the moral law remains.

In fact He 4:9 says that "there REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God".

So in Hebrews - the sacrifices end - but the moral Law remains.

Interesting that this is the same point made by the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and also the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as they and the RCC's own CCC admit that the TEN Commandments are included in that moral law of God.

Predictive law like Passover and its animal sacrifice is fulfilled in Christ and no longer predicts the first coming of Christ.

Prescriptive moral law like the Ten Commandments - do not take God's name in vain ... remains forever. It is not "abolished" as soon as one person comes along and does not take God's name in vain... obviously.

How helpful that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship accept this obvious Bible detail.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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...

Jesus repeatedly condemned the Jews for "making stuff up" as we see in Mark 7:6-13. It is a common theme in the Gospels and in some of the NT letters.

muddleglum said:
Although the Law was holy, it had limits.
Matthew 19:7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."
How much of the Law was permissive because of the hardness of their heart?

Civil laws cannot be inclusive of the high standard of personal laws such as turning the other cheek when struck. If you assign jail time to victims because they fail to turn the other cheek you actually have an unjust civil law even though it is a great Law at the individual level.

Christ always "magnifies" the Law - when we are talking about the real Law in the real Bible.


muddleglum said:
Later, in the passage at 22:35 when Jesus was nearing the end of his course, He again brought out what the Law was pointing to:
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied with the Shema, which was repeated every morning by every man and includes loving God as well as loving your neighbor as yourself. He went on to say,
(Matthew 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Indeed Jesus points to Mosaic Law as the two greatest commandments.

Deut 6:5 - "Love God with all your heart"

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

He was all about uphold the Law of the actual Bible.
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT]


I'll ask again
How much of the Law was permissive because of the hardness of their heart?​
Considering what else Jesus said about the Law in the Sermon on the Mount (you have heard, but I say) Isn't it all permissive?

Christ argues for more restrictions at the personal level than would be just at the civil level.

So in the example above -- you cannot level punishments against victims who failed to "turn the other cheek" when struck.

This was already pointed out in the prior post - but you are not responding to the point. The civil laws were far more lenient than the same application of the moral law at the individual level -- as already stated.

The Ten Commandments remain fully in place if all that is being done is to 'magnify them' at the personal/individual level.

[/quote]




I'm not understanding your point.

? So you have different sections of the Law that you can switch in and out? This one is "moral" and that one is "civil"? You aren't defending the Law, but just some of them?

Both the Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith admit to this obvious Bible detail there are moral laws, ceremonial laws, and civil laws in the Bible. (As we saw here #4 section 19 III, IV)

"Westminster Confession of Faith"
[FONT=&quot]Chapter XIX[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of the Law of God[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][2][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][3][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][4][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][5][/FONT][FONT=&quot] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][6][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][7][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][8][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][9][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][10][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][11][/FONT][FONT=&quot] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][12][/FONT][FONT=&quot] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][13][/FONT][FONT=&quot] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][14][/FONT][FONT=&quot] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][15][/FONT][FONT=&quot] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][16][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][17][/FONT][FONT=&quot] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][18][/FONT][FONT=&quot] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][19][/FONT][FONT=&quot] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][20][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][21][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][22][/FONT]
 
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BobRyan

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Christ spoke of Deut. 24:1 as being that way because it of the hardness of their heart. So you are calling it a civil law?

Certainly laws that define the rules for marriage and divorce for the nation - civil laws.

And which are the moral laws? That is, the ones that you know (apparently) aren't permissive at all?
Moral laws define sin as Paul tells us in Romans 3, and Romans 7 and as John states in 1John 3:4.

So that includes

The Ten Commandments,
Lev 19:18
Deut 6:5

And even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship will admit to this.


How does Deut. 24:2-4 fit in? That's the moral law?
Is it defining details concerning divorce and when it is allowed?

I don't see how this is not clear.


Would you call the law about feeding the kine treading out the grain civil or moral? Was Paul a dingbat for using it the way he did? Why or why not?
It was not even a civil law. But the principle is valid to this day - to be kind to animals, and Paul had no qualms at all about arguing that NT Christians should be instructed from the scriptures.

Do you have other sections? Ceremonial? Religious? Festive? So will you change your title to "some" of the Law, of these specific sections, are not.... That seems what you are trying to do. Are you?
As noted before -- this is a division that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship reads, admits to, accepts, promotes #65 -- I do not claim to be less informed than they are on this point, nor do I claim that it is only the unbent-Sabbath keeping Christians that see this Bible detail.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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listed

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Certainly laws that define the rules for marriage and divorce for the nation - civil laws.

Moral laws define sin as Paul tells us in Romans 3, and Romans 7 and as John states in 1John 3:4.

So that includes

The Ten Commandments,
Lev 19:18
Deut 6:5

And even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship will admit to this.


Is it defining details concerning divorce and when it is allowed?

I don't see how this is not clear.


It was not even a civil law. But the principle is valid to this day - to be kind to animals, and Paul had no qualms at all about arguing that NT Christians should be instructed from the scriptures.

As noted before -- this is a division that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship reads, admits to, accepts, promotes #65 -- I do not claim to be less informed than they are on this point, nor do I claim that it is only the unbent-Sabbath keeping Christians that see this Bible detail.

in Christ,

Bob
You have a lot of quoting to do to prove the vast majority of Christians support your divisions of the law.
 
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muddleglum

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And even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship will admit to this.

I'm not talking to them, am I? What do you say? And why?

> Is it defining details concerning divorce and when it is allowed?

I don't see how this is not clear.

Could you answer the question, please? You probably will say it is defining details of a civil law, divorce, but that the last clauses give you pause, right? So is it civil or moral? Or something else? What about those last clauses?

It was not even a civil law. But the principle is valid to this day - to be kind to animals, and Paul had no qualms at all about arguing that NT Christians should be instructed from the scriptures.

So it is neither civil nor moral? What category is it in then? Check up and see how Paul used it. Please realize that you called your ministers animals. :) Why did Paul use it in the way he did?

I'm still trying to understand where you are coming from. I'll wild-guess that the following law is one you'll accept as being under, but I don't know yet. (Edit: I see now that it is one you accept as a law.)

Say you and your wife meet up with me and my wife. You are tempted by my wife's great beauty to commit adultery with her. Why wouldn't you?

1. It is one of the 10 commandments and you fear to break any law. (or whatever you are choosing as a law to follow.)
2. The law against adultery is written on your heart and you fear to break any law.
3. The law against adultery is written on your heart and you can fight the temptation.
4. The law against adultery is written on your heart and Christ won't let you sin.
5. Christ is in your heart enabling you to agape love and has taught you why adultery is hating. Christ's love in you therefore enables you to avoid hating, because you truly love my wife, your own wife, yourself, and me, not to mention your church and God.
6. Other. Please expand.
 
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muddleglum

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You have a lot of quoting to do to prove the vast majority of Christians support your divisions of the law.

Worse, it seems that he is saying that some laws are to be followed and some aren't, which sees to be in direct contradiction of the title of this thread, "Christ did not come to downsize diminish abolish or destroy the LAW of God." Personally, I'm pretty confused. It seems like, in essence, he has abolished and destroyed part of the LAW of God.

2nd thought
However, I'm guessing he'll say that the sacrificial laws were magnified by Christ? Or accept that they are fulfilled. Nope, not the second. The fulfill assumes that they are no longer in force which sounds like abolished. So Christ magnified the sacrifice part of the Law.
 
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BukiRob

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I'm not understanding your point.



? So you have different sections of the Law that you can switch in and out? This one is "moral" and that one is "civil"? You aren't defending the Law, but just some of them?

Christ spoke of Deut. 24:1 as being that way because it of the hardness of their heart. So you are calling it a civil law? And which are the moral laws? That is, the ones that you know (apparently) aren't permissive at all? How does Deut. 24:2-4 fit in? That's the moral law?

Would you call the law about feeding the kine treading out the grain civil or moral? Was Paul a dingbat for using it the way he did? Why or why not?

Do you have other sections? Ceremonial? Religious? Festive? So will you change your title to "some" of the Law, of these specific sections, are not.... That seems what you are trying to do. Are you?

First off much of the law physically can not be observed because we are not living in the land.

Daniel and his observant contemporaries COULD NOT observe much of the Torah because they were not in the land. Does that somehow invalidate the Torah because they couldn't observe? No it did not and does not today.

Christ also instructed his followers to OBEY the Pharisee's and Scribes

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Here Messiah says to obey the Pharisee's. He also says that he did not come to ABOLISH THE LAW

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Abolish: to officially end or stop (something, such as a law) : to completely do away with (something)


Pleroo is the Gk word render Fulfill in English and it means:

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Only 1 of those many descriptive words carries connotation of ending which MUST be wrong here because Messiah makes it clear that he is not ABOLISHING the Torah.

If you try to force Fulfill to mean end you end with Messiah saying something that is pure gibberish:

“Do not think that I came to end (abolish) the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to end (abolish) but to end (fulfill) the law.

Of course the use of end, do away with, finish CAN NOT be the proper understanding of the word fulfill and the correct choice for properly translating Pleroo is:

to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
 
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muddleglum

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First off much of the law physically can not be observed because we are not living in the land.

So you are saying that we should move to that land. Otherwise, you are saying that we can get away from obeying by doing what Jonah tried.

Daniel and his observant contemporaries COULD NOT observe much of the Torah because they were not in the land. Does that somehow invalidate the Torah because they couldn't observe? No it did not and does not today.

I might remind you that Daniel, etc., were punished by being excluded from the land. You are saying that God is punishing you? Why not move back to the land?

Christ also instructed his followers to OBEY the Pharisee's and Scribes

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Here Messiah says to obey the Pharisee's.

Do you then obey the Pharisees and Scribes? Do you teach that everyone must tithe grass clippings, which is essentially what the Pharisees/Scribes (of the tithing ilk) did when they tithed mint, dill, and cummin? Do you rake up your grass clippings and take a tithe of them to church? Does your wife or you cook on Saturday? The Pharisees/Scribes (of the Sabbath ilk this time) brought out some precise oral rules given at the time of Moses that are handed down in the Talmud. Have you studied that, BTW?

He also says that he did not come to ABOLISH THE LAW

True, and remember, I already brought up what Paul said about who the Law is for. So it isn't abolished. I also asked you about the specific 10 "words" given to Moses that covers adultery. Which item in that list fulfills that law?
 
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BobRyan

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There is nothing in Heb 8 about moral law.

It is clear that the RCC, the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith - etc never argue that the "ceremonial law is written on the heart" in Heb 8 -- they all argue for the moral law - as is also seen in James 2.

If even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship can see this Bible detail - well far be it from me to be less informed on that point than they.. I affirm their finding in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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How does Deut. 24:2-4 fit in? That's the moral law?

Is it defining details concerning divorce and when it is allowed?

I don't see how this is not clear.

Would you call the law about feeding the kine treading out the grain civil or moral? Was Paul a dingbat for using it the way he did? Why or why not?


It was not even a civil law. But the principle is valid to this day - to be kind to animals, and Paul had no qualms at all about arguing that NT Christians should be instructed from the scriptures.

Do you have other sections? Ceremonial? Religious? Festive? So will you change your title to "some" of the Law, of these specific sections, are not.... That seems what you are trying to do. Are you?

As noted before -- this is a division that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship reads, admits to, accepts, promotes #65 -- I do not claim to be less informed than they are on this point, nor do I claim that it is only the unbent-Sabbath keeping Christians that see this Bible detail.

I'm not talking to them, am I? What do you say? And why?

1 Cor 7:19 contrasts ceremonial with moral law God saying that 'what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

The fact that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship admits to this same Bible detail as many unbent-Sabbath Christians - means that BOTH sides see an amazingly obvious detail.

Does not happen often that BOTH sides admit to such a thing -- so the fact has to be increadibly obvious.

Could you answer the question, please? You probably will say it is defining details of a civil law, divorce, but that the last clauses give you pause, right?

Civil law... was that not already posted in my last two posts on that same question??

I'm still trying to understand where you are coming from. I'll wild-guess that the following law is one you'll accept as being under, but I don't know yet. (Edit: I see now that it is one you accept as a law.)

Say you and your wife meet up with me and my wife. You are tempted by my wife's great beauty to commit adultery with her. Why wouldn't you?

1. It is one of the 10 commandments and you fear to break any law

1., The "LAW of God written on the heart and mind" under the New Covenant of Heb 8 and Jer 31:31-33

2. The saints keep the LAW of God in Rom 8:5-9 but the lost do not submit to it "neither indeed can they"?

3. Rom 6 - we are not to present ourselves as slaves to sin.

4. 1John 2:1 these things I write to you that you sin not.

5. 1John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

6. Rev 14:12 the "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God"

7. 1John 5:1-4 we show our Love for God and each other by "Keeping the Commandments of God"

Posted often. This is the easy part of the discussion for both sides.

As Romans 8 points out it "IF the Spirit of Christ dwells in you THEN are you the children of God".

Gal 2:20 "No longer I who live but Christ that lives within me".

2Cor 5 "If anyone is in Christ Jesus he is a NEW creation old things passed away all things become new".

Paul does not argue for "his own inner goodness" but rather the indwelling Christ.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Worse, it seems that he is saying that some laws are to be followed and some aren't, .

Predictive laws such as animal sacrifice are out since their "prediction" is fulfilled.

Prescriptive laws such as not taking God's name in vain -- remain.

This is not a challenge to Matt 5 - it is affirmation of it.

Irrefutable.

No wonder BOTH sides of the debate get this detail without difficulty.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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bugkiller

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First off much of the law physically can not be observed because we are not living in the land.
Thanks for this admission. That then leaves us with part of the law. Two very prominent Jewish NT authors both say it is all or none when it comes to observing the law. Since this is a requirement there is no need to try and observe part of or an amended version of the law.
Daniel and his observant contemporaries COULD NOT observe much of the Torah because they were not in the land. Does that somehow invalidate the Torah because they couldn't observe? No it did not and does not today.
I would say it doesn't invalidate the covenant given to them at that time. Today however is a much different story. We have an New Covenant as promised and validated by Jesus and the historical record of Acts which now includes the whole world.
Christ also instructed his followers to OBEY the Pharisee's and Scribes

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Here Messiah says to obey the Pharisee's. He also says that he did not come to ABOLISH THE LAW

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Abolish: to officially end or stop (something, such as a law) : to completely do away with (something)
OK I can agree with this. But then you must deal with LK 24:44

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

This permits the law to be changed and or done away with as witnessed by Heb 7:12. Otherwise Jesus (God) is sinning.

You must also deal with I Tim 1:7-11

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

To say the law is for the believer is to say they are wicked and lawless. That goes against Romans 3-8. Righteousness is apart from the law and a free gift by declaration delivering the Christian from the law. The body of flesh isn't and has never been subject to the law.
Pleroo is the Gk word render Fulfill in English and it means:

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
I abound, I am liberally supplied
to render full, i.e. to complete
to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
to consummate: a number
to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize
of matters of duty: to perform, execute
of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Only 1 of those many descriptive words carries connotation of ending which MUST be wrong here because Messiah makes it clear that he is not ABOLISHING the Torah.
But the law is permitted to change by His confession in LK 24:44 which reveals more completely what He said in Mat 5:17-18. That was purposefully hidden at the time spoken as v 45 reveals.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
If you try to force Fulfill to mean end you end with Messiah saying something that is pure gibberish:

“Do not think that I came to end (abolish) the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to end (abolish) but to end (fulfill) the law.
No because of Romans 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Not only is the law over but the verse says specifically for who it is over. This meshes with I Tim 1:9. For those who insist Christians and everyone else for the most part are observing the law simply because they're not murdering, lying, stealing, committing adultery is bogus. Obedience by incidence isn't obedience to anything. Its merely coincidence and that's all. To say the Christian is sinning by not observing the Sabbath is also bogus. (We have a New Covenant which does not include the 10 Cs.) Those who say they are observing the Sabbath and buying electricity or driving to church are lying and not incompliance with the commandment. They have no right to amend the stone tablets.

A religious organization well represented here teaches one can not be saved while not keeping the Sabbath.

It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" found in {6T 356.4}

This is the major factor in the pro arguments about the Sabbath.
Of course the use of end, do away with, finish CAN NOT be the proper understanding of the word fulfill and the correct choice for properly translating Pleroo is:

to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Yes it can because of Romans 10:4

The promotion of the law is for righteousness. Otherwise it can't be said there is violation. Romans says this is the purpose of the law in at least 2 places. Even Isa says this in 63:17. So it isn't a mere concoction of Paul.

The law didn't create sin either because sin was before the law (Rom 5:13). In fact the law came about because of sin (Gal 3:19).

A favorite half verse (I JN 3:4b) often quoted to prove all sin is only a violation of the law is false. The verse plainly states sin is also a transgression of the law. This means that isn't dependent on the law.

Bugkiller
 
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muddleglum

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Is it defining details concerning divorce and when it is allowed?

I don't see how this is not clear.
You call it the civil law, but God doesn't think that way, does He?
...for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


It was not even a civil law. But the principle is valid to this day - to be kind to animals, and Paul had no qualms at all about arguing that NT Christians should be instructed from the scriptures. [/INDENT]
Again, you don't seem to know the context and again, you are calling your minister an animal. :)


1 Cor 7:19 contrasts ceremonial with moral law God saying that 'what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

How so? Circumcision is ceremonial?
Aside from that, Paul also said, Ephesians 2:15: "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"
and
I Corinthians 14:37: "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."


Does not happen often that BOTH sides admit to such a thing -- so the fact has to be increadibly obvious.
However, they aren't here to expound on what they said to agree with you. Perhaps their division is just bins to toss each law so that they can study them more efficiently. I know that Paul believes that the Law was a foreshadowing, which is why he could use that be kind to kine verse.


Civil law... was that not already posted in my last two posts on that same question??
Not that I could figure it out. From what I can tell, you only answered for Deut 24:1, not the rest of the passage 2-4. I divided it on purpose, if you'll read the pertinent verses. I especially pointed out the last clauses as you'll notice I again did, more fully, above.




Posted often. This is the easy part of the discussion for both sides.
...
Paul does not argue for "his own inner goodness" but rather the indwelling Christ.

True, and I'll leave on that note. Because if anyone abides in Christ, then He can teach that person.

abide in the Blessing,
 
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bugkiller

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It is clear that the RCC, the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith - etc never argue that the "ceremonial law is written on the heart" in Heb 8 -- they all argue for the moral law - as is also seen in James 2.

If even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship can see this Bible detail - well far be it from me to be less informed on that point than they.. I affirm their finding in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob
Then the Sabbath isn't part of the law written on the heart because it is purely ceremonial. All celebrations of any kind are ceremonies. The Sabbath is only moral for the Israelite who is commanded to keep it. No one else is commanded to keep it unless they are under the control of an Israelite.

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muddleglum

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(We have a New Covenant which does not include the 10 Cs.)

Bugkiller

Heh. I miss that often. Sorta like living on the side of a mountain and forgetting it is a mountain.

'Sides that, the Law came 430 years after the Promise to Abraham, which has never been set aside. In effect the N.T. is really the old covenant and the O.T. is merely a temporary bandaid covenant.

Enjoyed your answers.
 
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bugkiller

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Heh. I miss that often. Sorta like living on the side of a mountain and forgetting it is a mountain.

'Sides that, the Law came 430 years after the Promise to Abraham, which has never been set aside. In effect the N.T. is really the old covenant and the O.T. is merely a temporary bandaid covenant.

Enjoyed your answers.
Good description of what is commonly called the OC.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Heh. I miss that often. Sorta like living on the side of a mountain and forgetting it is a mountain.

'Sides that, the Law came 430 years after the Promise to Abraham, which has never been set aside. In effect the N.T. is really the old covenant and the O.T. is merely a temporary bandaid covenant.

Enjoyed your answers.
Go to the user CP and look at the comments in your reps. Those get there from people clicking on the yellow bulb in the top right corner of your screen. Took me a while to learn what reps were.

bugkiller
 
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BobRyan

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Originally Posted by listed
There is nothing in Heb 8 about moral law.​
It is clear that the RCC, the Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith - etc never argue that the "ceremonial law is written on the heart" in Heb 8 -- they all argue for the moral law - as is also seen in James 2.

If even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship can see this Bible detail - well far be it from me to be less informed on that point than they.. I affirm their finding in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob



Then the Sabbath isn't part of the law written on the heart

Until you read the post that you are responding to and find that it IS in fact included in the TEN Commandments AND was given to mankind in Eden even before the Jewish nation exists and BEFORE any animal sacrifices.

A bible detail so clear to both sides of the discussion that both the majority EVEN of pro-sunday scholarship admits to the point.

And obviously through all eternity AFTER the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

So...um... except for "that".

because it is purely ceremonial.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.

But as noted in the post above the Bible and even the pro-Sunday scholars listed - do see that the Sabbath commandment is included in the TEN Commandments and is not done away with animal sacrifices.

Ceremonial law in this context is not defined as "all forms of worship" though maybe that is what you were supposing. As if all worship to God ceased in the NT???

in Christ,

Bob
 
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The Sabbath is only moral for the Israelite who is commanded to keep it. No one else is commanded to keep it unless they are under the control of an Israelite.

bugkiller

Until you read the Bible in Mark 2:27 "Made for MANKIND"
And in Is 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"
And of course Is 56 where Gentiles are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath.

yes... um... except "for that".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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