Christ did not come to downsize diminish abolish or destroy the LAW of God

[bugkiller]

Please tell the man who died for picking up sticks how lenient the civil law is.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

What does Acts 15 say about the setting aside of the commandments for the Christian?

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost....

Exactly how is this merely men changing the law?

I also do not understand Peter's testimony if keeping the law is a requirement of salvation. Cornelius wasn't a Christian nor did he keep the law as a Gentile. Yet the same thing happened to Cornelius as happened to them in the upper room as promised only to the Jews. Remember the NC is only made with both houses of Israel. hehehe

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

To this

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I respond with

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. Col 2

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

To this

Prov 28

4Those who forsake the law praise the wicked,
But those who keep the law strive with them.
..
9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.

I respond with

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. I Tim 1

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

To this

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I respond with, so what who cares what their position in heaven is. Besides no one here is forbidding others to keep any of the commandments they wish. There are those of us who do say it doesn't matter which day one worships on with full Bible backing such as Rom 14 and Col 2. We aren't judging another man's servant which isn't exactly kosher. We don't have permission to do that. Some here claim otherwise.

bugkiller

 

[BukiRob]

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. JN 15

What are the commandments of Jesus' Father that He kept?

In order to deal with this one must have a clear understanding of WHO the Messiah truly is.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

This begs an obvious question.... what Word is John speaking about?

we are then told 14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

So what word????? The only one that existed at the time John penned those words.....THE TORAH

This makes even more sense when later Messiah says (Matt 5:17) 17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;

It is worth noting that the Greek word here for fulfill is Pleroo

Which carries the meaning (best fit definition) to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize


In short, Messiah is the living, breathing embodiment of the Torah which explains why he states that he did not come to supplant the Torah...

what is more numbing is that if a believer rejects the Torah, he is rejecting Messiah!

This of course, flies DIRECTLY in the face of what we are taught by the "church" Namely that the law is nailed to the tree and is done away with which of course seemingly has issues when you look at the entirety of scripture

 

[BobRyan]

The moral law of God isn't the covenant Jeremiah says they broke.

bugkiller

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[BobRyan]

What in Rom 3:31 implies obligation to the law in light of Rom 7:6 and 10:4?

bugkiller

That happened when we read the actual text.

[FONT=&quot]"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Please tell the man who died for picking up sticks how lenient the civil law is.

bugkiller

The Sabbath commandment "Remember the Sabbath day to KEEP it HOLY" -- there were a great many who were not "HOLY" -- not saved is not 'Holy' - and not punishment at all in civil law.

"Be ye Holy as I AM Holy" to keep the Sabbath Holy one must be Holy - born-again sanctified - serving God - no civil law in the OT could touch that level of individual obligation.

Civil law is always less stringent in its ability to apply moral commands.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What does Acts 15 say about the setting aside of the commandments for the Christian?

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost....

Exactly how is this merely men changing the law?

I also do not understand Peter's testimony if keeping the law is a requirement of salvation. Cornelius wasn't a Christian nor did he keep the law as a Gentile. Yet the same thing happened to Cornelius as happened to them in the upper room as promised only to the Jews. Remember the NC is only made with both houses of Israel. hehehe

bugkiller

Christ and HIS statements on the LAW is the subject of this thread.

I have an entire thread on Acts 21-28 and Acts 15 has been added to it -- for example #23 , #24 , 56 , #66

It is also proven there that in Acts 15 they do not downsize the entire Bible to just 3 verses for gentiles.

As "ALL scripture" included Moses, Law, Prophets, Psalms according to the NT writers.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

In order to deal with this one must have a clear understanding of WHO the Messiah truly is.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

This begs an obvious question.... what Word is John speaking about?

we are then told 14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

So what word????? The only one that existed at the time John penned those words.....THE TORAH

This makes even more sense when later Messiah says (Matt 5:17) 17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;

It is worth noting that the Greek word here for fulfill is Pleroo

Which carries the meaning (best fit definition) to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize


In short, Messiah is the living, breathing embodiment of the Torah which explains why he states that he did not come to supplant the Torah...

what is more numbing is that if a believer rejects the Torah, he is rejecting Messiah!

This of course, flies DIRECTLY in the face of what we are taught by the "church" Namely that the law is nailed to the tree and is done away with which of course seemingly has issues when you look at the entirety of scripture

You use your favorite definition and I'll stick with mine. Thanks.

Here is mine

II.to render full, i.e. to complete

Jesus said He did this very thing in LK 24:44

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That happened when we read the actual text.

[FONT=&quot]"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31[/FONT]

Please answer the question by showing it means obligation to with some genuine exegesis.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

There is no difference in picking up sticks than there is using electricity or riding your beast of burden strictly forbidden by the actual commandment itself.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

The text says --


[FONT=&quot]"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31[/FONT]

Please answer the question by showing it means obligation to with some genuine exegesis.

bugkiller

Even Heb 8 says "the LAW is written on the heart and mind" -

And of course "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Those who wish to ignore this may - I am not trying to force anyone's free will.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In order to deal with this one must have a clear understanding of WHO the Messiah truly is.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

This begs an obvious question.... what Word is John speaking about?

we are then told 14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

So what word????? The only one that existed at the time John penned those words.....THE TORAH

This makes even more sense when later Messiah says (Matt 5:17) 17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets -- I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill;

It is worth noting that the Greek word here for fulfill is Pleroo

Which carries the meaning (best fit definition) to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize


In short, Messiah is the living, breathing embodiment of the Torah which explains why he states that he did not come to supplant the Torah...

Amen.

in fact 1John 5:1-4 insists that "Keeping the Commandments of God" is the outward sign that we truly Love God and Love our neighbor.

Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8 both agree "The LAW of God written on the heart and mind".

And of course - Romans 8:4-9 reminds us that it is the lost that "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Back to the teaching of Christ

Does Jesus MAGNIFY or diminish the LAW of God - according to His OWN claims? Is Jesus replacing the LAW of God -- downsizing all known scripture to one commandment in John 13?

For example in John 13
31 Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus *said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; 32 if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately. 33 Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Or is this MAGNIFYING - what was already quoted by Christ in Matt 22?

Matt 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
(Deut 6:5)


38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
(Lev 19:18 quoted there)



The command of Jesus in John 13 - magnifies one of HIS quotes from Lev 19:18 in Matt 22.

Christ's Law always MAGNIFIED the Commandments of God.

Christ illustrated this in Matt 5
21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

 

[Frogster]

Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross

 

[bugkiller]

Christ and HIS statements on the LAW is the subject of this thread.

I have an entire thread on Acts 21-28 and Acts 15 has been added to it -- for example #23 , #24 , 56 , #66

It is also proven there that in Acts 15 they do not downsize the entire Bible to just 3 verses for gentiles.

As "ALL scripture" included Moses, Law, Prophets, Psalms according to the NT writers.

in Christ,

Bob

You mean after all these years we only argue about 3 verses?

bugkiller

 

[muddleglum]

This was already pointed out in the prior post - but you are not responding to the point.

I'm not understanding your point.

The civil laws were far more lenient than the same application of the moral law at the individual level -- as already stated.

? So you have different sections of the Law that you can switch in and out? This one is "moral" and that one is "civil"? You aren't defending the Law, but just some of them?

Christ spoke of Deut. 24:1 as being that way because it of the hardness of their heart. So you are calling it a civil law? And which are the moral laws? That is, the ones that you know (apparently) aren't permissive at all? How does Deut. 24:2-4 fit in? That's the moral law?

Would you call the law about feeding the kine treading out the grain civil or moral? Was Paul a dingbat for using it the way he did? Why or why not?

Do you have other sections? Ceremonial? Religious? Festive? So will you change your title to "some" of the Law, of these specific sections, are not.... That seems what you are trying to do. Are you?

 

[Frogster]

I'm not understanding your point.



? So you have different sections of the Law that you can switch in and out? This one is "moral" and that one is "civil"? You aren't defending the Law, but just some of them?

Christ spoke of Deut. 24:1 as being that way because it of the hardness of their heart. So you are calling it a civil law? And which are the moral laws? That is, the ones that you know (apparently) aren't permissive at all? How does Deut. 24:2-4 fit in? That's the moral law?

Would you call the law about feeding the kine treading out the grain civil or moral? Was Paul a dingbat for using it the way he did? Why or why not?

Do you have other sections? Ceremonial? Religious? Festive? So will you change your title to "some" of the Law, of these specific sections, are not.... That seems what you are trying to do. Are you?

You're right, plus SDA people keep food laws out of leviticus, but not feasts right out of the same book. I don't keep feasts either, but I also don't promote food laws.