ISIS and God

[Achilles6129]

Hello all,

It seems that every day we read of some new shocking brutality that ISIS has committed against one of their victims. If the reports are true, they engage in torture, murderous executions, the sexual slavery of women and children, and many other awful brutalities. My question, however, revolves around ISIS and an understanding of theology. Does the existence of a group like ISIS cause you to doubt/question God or does/did it even drive you to outright atheism? We could consider the following points:

1) Obviously, God has refused to intervene to stop ISIS
2) God created all the ISIS members (genetically speaking) and knew what they would do prior them even being born
3) And, of course, God could easily rescue the ISIS' victims of murder/sexual slavery and has not done so
4) When we come to Christian theology, Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyone (this would include ISIS members) and offers them forgiveness if they obey his commands - is this justified?

In short, what theological conclusions can you draw from the existence of a group like ISIS?

 

[FireDragon76]

No, no more than any other weird political group. Which is what ISIS is. It's not religious, it's political.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

No, no more than any other weird political group. Which is what ISIS is. It's not religious, it's political.

Denying they're religious or religious perversion is not a good way to discuss them

 

[Eyes wide Open]

Politics plays a part but we have to understand religious ideology that is involved with that. This link is long but worthy of a read. Not wanting to derail the OP, I will respond later to the questions.

The True Believers : Sam Harris and Graeme Wood discuss the Islamic State : Sam Harris

 

[ebia]

Hello all,

It seems that every day we read of some new shocking brutality that ISIS has committed against one of their victims. If the reports are true, they engage in torture, murderous executions, the sexual slavery of women and children, and many other awful brutalities. My question, however, revolves around ISIS and an understanding of theology. Does the existence of a group like ISIS cause you to doubt/question God or does/did it even drive you to outright atheism? We could consider the following points:

1) Obviously, God has refused to intervene to stop ISIS
2) God created all the ISIS members (genetically speaking) and knew what they would do prior them even being born
3) And, of course, God could easily rescue the ISIS' victims of murder/sexual slavery and has not done so
4) When we come to Christian theology, Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyone (this would include ISIS members) and offers them forgiveness if they obey his commands - is this justified?

In short, what theological conclusions can you draw from the existence of a group like ISIS?

IMO, the story of Noah exists precisely as an answer that question.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, no more than any other weird political group. Which is what ISIS is. It's not religious, it's political.

This narrative is difficult to uphold in the face of ISIS' own stated reasons for existing.

 

[juvenissun]

Hello all,

It seems that every day we read of some new shocking brutality that ISIS has committed against one of their victims. If the reports are true, they engage in torture, murderous executions, the sexual slavery of women and children, and many other awful brutalities. My question, however, revolves around ISIS and an understanding of theology. Does the existence of a group like ISIS cause you to doubt/question God or does/did it even drive you to outright atheism? We could consider the following points:

1) Obviously, God has refused to intervene to stop ISIS
2) God created all the ISIS members (genetically speaking) and knew what they would do prior them even being born
3) And, of course, God could easily rescue the ISIS' victims of murder/sexual slavery and has not done so
4) When we come to Christian theology, Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyone (this would include ISIS members) and offers them forgiveness if they obey his commands - is this justified?

In short, what theological conclusions can you draw from the existence of a group like ISIS?

Is ISIS an Islamic fundamentalist group?
If so, they should have a very strong faith to their god. So they are an excellent example of a theistic group.

 

[FireDragon76]

This narrative is difficult to uphold in the face of ISIS' own stated reasons for existing.

Do you always take a group's claims at face value? What about actual analysis? It's simplistic to say that ISIS does what they do because they are Muslims. Most Muslims around the world don't approve of ISIS' behavior. Are you saying they are less Muslim for not approving of ISIS?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Do you always take a group's claims at face value? What about actual analysis?

An actual analysis would require us to consider that maybe they take their religious claims seriously.

It's simplistic to say that ISIS does what they do because they are Muslims.

Luckily I did not say that, did I?

Most Muslims around the world don't approve of ISIS' behavior. Are you saying they are less Muslim for not approving of ISIS?

No, no more than I am saying that a Christian is less Christian for not approving of the Westboro Baptist Church. ISIS' brand of Islam is obviously not the kind practiced by the majority of the world's Muslims.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Hello all,

It seems that every day we read of some new shocking brutality that ISIS has committed against one of their victims. If the reports are true, they engage in torture, murderous executions, the sexual slavery of women and children, and many other awful brutalities. My question, however, revolves around ISIS and an understanding of theology. Does the existence of a group like ISIS cause you to doubt/question God or does/did it even drive you to outright atheism? We could consider the following points:

If the existence of evil in the world drove one to atheism one would not need to wait for ISIS to arrive to be driven there.

1) Obviously, God has refused to intervene to stop ISIS

I do not recall that He has made any refusal but He has not stopped ISIS from doing what they have done.

2) God created all the ISIS members (genetically speaking) and knew what they would do prior them even being born

Same is true of me and you. Are we innocents?

3) And, of course, God could easily rescue the ISIS' victims of murder/sexual slavery and has not done so

That would be the norm rather than the exception to the norm for Him.

4) When we come to Christian theology, Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyone (this would include ISIS members) and offers them forgiveness if they obey his commands - is this justified?

It is theologically inaccurate. He offers them forgiveness whether they obey his commands or not. Should they accept that offer and repent they would be justified and sanctified. Grace does not require prior obedience. I think though that you are asking something different here more like "is it justifiable for God to offer forgiveness". I, for one, am not in a position to judge God's actions as I am not his equal.

In short, what theological conclusions can you draw from the existence of a group like ISIS?

I would draw the conclusion that humans are flawed and not perfect and the more they believe in their own righteousness the more harm they will do. Humility rather than self righteousness is to be encouraged as the humble tend to do much less harm than the self righteous.

 

[juvenissun]

Do you always take a group's claims at face value? What about actual analysis? It's simplistic to say that ISIS does what they do because they are Muslims. Most Muslims around the world don't approve of ISIS' behavior. Are you saying they are less Muslim for not approving of ISIS?

I don't know much about Islam. But what you said might be true. It is possible that a true Muslim should behave like people in ISIS.

 

[variant]

Do you always take a group's claims at face value? What about actual analysis? It's simplistic to say that ISIS does what they do because they are Muslims. Most Muslims around the world don't approve of ISIS' behavior. Are you saying they are less Muslim for not approving of ISIS?

We can certainly say that bad people don't cease being religious because they are bad.

ISIS represents exactly how religions are often spread, so discounting their stated religious underpinnings seems a bit odd, why would we do this?

 

[durangodawood]

1) Obviously, God has refused to intervene to stop ISIS
2) God created all the ISIS members (genetically speaking) and knew what they would do prior them even being born
3) And, of course, God could easily rescue the ISIS' victims of murder/sexual slavery and has not done so
4) When we come to Christian theology, Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyone (this would include ISIS members) and offers them forgiveness if they obey his commands - is this justified?

In short, what theological conclusions can you draw from the existence of a group like ISIS?

1) Not unusual for God, as far as we know.
2) Also not unusual, as God created ALL the creepy and evil people, by your reckoning.
3) Just like God could rescue ANY innocent victim from peril.
4) Yes, its good to forgive people who truly repent... but not to excuse them from justice.

So, I dont see how ISIS presents any new challenge to our established religious/ethic viewpoints.

 

[Grafted In]

IMO, the story of Noah exists precisely as an answer that question.

I don't understand your post.

 

[ebia]

I don't understand your post.

The story of Noah is a very good answer to the question "why doesn't God just intervene and deal with evil people?"

 

[durangodawood]

The story of Noah is a very good answer to the question "why doesn't God just intervene and deal with evil people?"

The conclusion of the Noah story show God forgoing genocidal solutions to the general evil of man.

But the Noah story does not explain why God continues to let individual evil people run amok.

(If I recall correctly)

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The story of Noah is a very good answer to the question "why doesn't God just intervene and deal with evil people?"

Because the only methods he has at his disposal for dealing with evil result in wanton destruction?

 

[Colter]

Hello all,

It seems that every day we read of some new shocking brutality that ISIS has committed against one of their victims. If the reports are true, they engage in torture, murderous executions, the sexual slavery of women and children, and many other awful brutalities. My question, however, revolves around ISIS and an understanding of theology. Does the existence of a group like ISIS cause you to doubt/question God or does/did it even drive you to outright atheism? We could consider the following points:

1) Obviously, God has refused to intervene to stop ISIS
2) God created all the ISIS members (genetically speaking) and knew what they would do prior them even being born
3) And, of course, God could easily rescue the ISIS' victims of murder/sexual slavery and has not done so
4) When we come to Christian theology, Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyone (this would include ISIS members) and offers them forgiveness if they obey his commands - is this justified?

In short, what theological conclusions can you draw from the existence of a group like ISIS?

It reminds me of the Old Testiment and the Book of Revelation.

 

[Achilles6129]

1) Not unusual for God, as far as we know.
2) Also not unusual, as God created ALL the creepy and evil people, by your reckoning.
3) Just like God could rescue ANY innocent victim from peril.
4) Yes, its good to forgive people who truly repent... but not to excuse them from justice.

So, I dont see how ISIS presents any new challenge to our established religious/ethic viewpoints.

I would say that the challenge they represent is their extreme brutality, particularly their sexual brutality. This is something that wasn't true (as far as I'm aware) of the Nazis, Communists, etc.

Your points that you made above seem correct, so we have to ask: exactly what is God's relationship to evil?

 

[Achilles6129]

Because the only methods he has at his disposal for dealing with evil result in wanton destruction?

That would be the wanton destruction of evil people, right?