Sin can not take away your salvation.

[lori milne]

never heard anything like it, it is the word of God, you cannot omit something you don't like the look of.

I dont dislike any of Paul's writings I how ever know it wasn't to me it was to law only abiders Jews Pharisees! I'm a gentile and I'm not struggling with believing in Jesus!
I'm struggling with my flesh and staying in the spirit!
So I follow Jesus teaching to keep me in line and believing like he believes in me that I can live sin free !
If I sin trust me I feel guilty vs practicing sin and justifying it

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

I dont dislike any of Paul's writings I how ever know it wasn't to me it was to law only abiders Jews Pharisees! I'm a gentile and I'm not struggling with believing in Jesus!
I'm struggling with my flesh and staying in the spirit!
So I follow Jesus teaching to keep me in line and believing like he believes in me that I can live sin free !
If I sin trust me I feel guilty vs practicing sin and justifying it

the word says All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, you can't just say that is for those people.
Jesus is the word, everything he ever said or did is scripture, it doesn't matter who wrote it but where it came from.
Any believer feels guilty for sinning but when you realise that God still loves you, you get up and move on, if you cling on to the mistake, blame yourself or God that it keeps occurring you will soon be condemned.

 

[lori milne]

the word says All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, you can't just say that is for those people. Jesus is the word, everything he ever said or did is scripture, it doesn't matter who wrote it but where it came from. Any believer feels guilty for sinning but when you realise that God still loves you, you get up and move on, if you cling on to the mistake, blame yourself or God that it keeps occurring you will soon be condemned.

You can't take it out of context then and live off cheep grace ! Because what is being implied to you in it is being misunderstood! I think it can't be any clearer then that

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You can't take it out of context then and live off cheep grace ! Because what is being implied to you in it is being misunderstood! I think it can't be any clearer then that

I don't think that it is cheap grace to know where you stand in Christ, knowing that all your sins are under the blood of Christ and that you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. It is not cheap grace because it cost God His only Son to come and die for us. If you were to die for someone, what value would you put on your blood for that person? God paid a very high price so that we could be entirely set free from sin to the extent that we are entirely forgiven, with the guilt and penalty of sin totally removed from us so that we can be born again, filled with the Spirit, and empowered to live a successful life for Christ.

The notion of cheap grace comes from an Old Covenant mind-set where we have to continually answer for each sin we commit. Old Covenant folks were always living with sin consciousness and had to make regular sacrifice for sin. But when Jesus died on the cross, there was only one sacrifice that dealt with sin once and for all. New Covenant people do not live with sin consciousness even though we know that we are not perfect and still blot our copy book from time to time. But God does not see us a sinners doing wrong things all the time, He sees us through the righteousness of Christ.

To say that we can live in freedom without having to worry about our sins and shortcomings is cheap grace is really an Old Covenant, carnal-minded attitude. The scripture says that to be carnal minded is death. This means that a person who is still under the Old Covenant law-abiding type of religious life is still unconverted, no matter how "christian" he appears to be.

A converted Christian is spiritually minded. This means that his mind has been transformed to be of the same mind as Christ so that the fullness of Christ lives in him. Trying to keep a set of religious moral rules is being carnal minded and a sign that the person still needs to be born again.

Paul says that we have the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead. We know our limitations, but we don't live according to them. We cannot live up to God's standards by trying to obey a set of religious criteria. But God has raised us up with Christ to be seated with Him in heavenly places. This means that He has raised us up above our limitations and clothed us with the righteousness of Christ and filled us with the Holy Spirit so that we can do the works that Christ did and to live in complete freedom with Him apart from the works of the Law.

The "apostles" who came to the Galatian churches saying that Christians needed to obey the laws of Moses and be circumcised were described by Paul as false. He said to the Galatians (my paraphrase); "Who put a spell on you and made you into such idiots that having begun in the Spirit you are trying to perfect yourself by the Law?" Therefore Paul would have called anyone who tried to obey a set of religious rules, "idiotic". And yet we have so many Christians, even in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles who are either trying to obey a set of rules, or trying to impose their set of rules on others, and in doing so are robbing good people of their freedom in Christ.

 

[lismore]

Grace is a lot better than cheap, it's free!

To me this will change how I view other people.

God has shown me grace, undeserved favour and forgiveness. Therefore I will forgive others and treat them as God would have me treat them, showing them undeserved favour. Doing things for people who cannot repay me, because I cannot repay God for his grace.

grace received leads to grace shared.

 

[Frogster]

I don't think that it is cheap grace to know where you stand in Christ, knowing that all your sins are under the blood of Christ and that you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. It is not cheap grace because it cost God His only Son to come and die for us. If you were to die for someone, what value would you put on your blood for that person? God paid a very high price so that we could be entirely set free from sin to the extent that we are entirely forgiven, with the guilt and penalty of sin totally removed from us so that we can be born again, filled with the Spirit, and empowered to live a successful life for Christ.

The notion of cheap grace comes from an Old Covenant mind-set where we have to continually answer for each sin we commit. Old Covenant folks were always living with sin consciousness and had to make regular sacrifice for sin. But when Jesus died on the cross, there was only one sacrifice that dealt with sin once and for all. New Covenant people do not live with sin consciousness even though we know that we are not perfect and still blot our copy book from time to time. But God does not see us a sinners doing wrong things all the time, He sees us through the righteousness of Christ.

To say that we can live in freedom without having to worry about our sins and shortcomings is cheap grace is really an Old Covenant, carnal-minded attitude. The scripture says that to be carnal minded is death. This means that a person who is still under the Old Covenant law-abiding type of religious life is still unconverted, no matter how "christian" he appears to be.

A converted Christian is spiritually minded. This means that his mind has been transformed to be of the same mind as Christ so that the fullness of Christ lives in him. Trying to keep a set of religious moral rules is being carnal minded and a sign that the person still needs to be born again.

Paul says that we have the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead. We know our limitations, but we don't live according to them. We cannot live up to God's standards by trying to obey a set of religious criteria. But God has raised us up with Christ to be seated with Him in heavenly places. This means that He has raised us up above our limitations and clothed us with the righteousness of Christ and filled us with the Holy Spirit so that we can do the works that Christ did and to live in complete freedom with Him apart from the works of the Law.

The "apostles" who came to the Galatian churches saying that Christians needed to obey the laws of Moses and be circumcised were described by Paul as false. He said to the Galatians (my paraphrase); "Who put a spell on you and made you into such idiots that having begun in the Spirit you are trying to perfect yourself by the Law?" Therefore Paul would have called anyone who tried to obey a set of religious rules, "idiotic". And yet we have so many Christians, even in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles who are either trying to obey a set of rules, or trying to impose their set of rules on others, and in doing so are robbing good people of their freedom in Christ.

Good post!

 

[Frogster]

Grace is a lot better than cheap, it's free!

To me this will change how I view other people.

God has shown me grace, undeserved favour and forgiveness. Therefore I will forgive others and treat them as God would have me treat them, showing them undeserved favour. Doing things for people who cannot repay me, because I cannot repay God for his grace.

grace received leads to grace shared.

Good post!

 

[Alithis]

You can't take it out of context then and live off cheep grace ! Because what is being implied to you in it is being misunderstood! I think it can't be any clearer then that

Your being more then clear enough.
it gets almost humurous on here how if one mentions grace only...it is assumed they promote its ok to carry on uninhibited in sin..im sure they dont mean that.

And- if you speak of obedience and the cross and that we must not continue is sin...well you must be promoting life according to the law.

but your not... there is no law in the old testiment that says we must obey the Holy Spirit.
And yet.. we know that to disobey him ..is to know what is right to do ..and then not do it.

The op paints only half a picture and so it unintentionally has thr potential to mislead.
the truth is.. sin that has been forgiven does not exist..its been wiped clean.

but if we then sin by disobeyibg the Holy Spirit..and.refuse to repent..then we will perish.

so can past repented sin cause us to lose salvation..?of course not .
can present sin we refuse to repent of..lose us salvation? Of course it shall.
our own consience..as you point out..,csuses us to know this.
if it were not so we would not have consience.

 

[lori milne]

Well then continue Sining then because you are all saved by grace!
I'm glad we got that cleared up

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

the truth is.. sin that has been forgiven does not exist..its been wiped clean.

but if we then sin by disobeyibg the Holy Spirit..and.refuse to repent..then we will perish.

so can past repented sin cause us to lose salvation..?of course not .
can present sin we refuse to repent of..lose us salvation? Of course it shall.
our own consience..as you point out..,csuses us to know this.
if it were not so we would not have consience.

I think that you are confused between the Old and New Covenants. You say that we have been wiped clean of sin. That is New Covenant. But you then say sin causes us to lose salvation. That is Old Covenant.

You have a wrong definition of repentance. Repentance happens only once and it is the act of turning from the world and accepting Christ as Saviour. As a result we are set free from the guilt and penalty of our sinfulness as I stated in my previous post.

You seem to be telling us that you can be saved today, then go back on your repentance back into sin and then have to accept Christ all over again tomorrow. That is level 10 on the 1-10 scale of ridiculousness.

I think that you need to learn more perfectly the basics of the Christian faith so that you are not trying to subscribe to Judaism as well as some aspects of Christianity. You have to be one or the other.

 

[Alithis]

Well then continue Sining then because you are all saved by grace!
I'm glad we got that cleared up

nah ..you've read me Wong lo, im agreeing with you ..i just began by pointing out the two half sides .

 

[Alithis]

I think that you are confused between the Old and New Covenants. You say that we have been wiped clean of sin. That is New Covenant. But you then say sin causes us to lose salvation. That is Old Covenant.

You have a wrong definition of repentance. Repentance happens only once and it is the act of turning from the world and accepting Christ as Saviour. As a result we are set free from the guilt and penalty of our sinfulness as I stated in my previous post.

You seem to be telling us that you can be saved today, then go back on your repentance back into sin and then have to accept Christ all over again tomorrow. That is level 10 on the 1-10 scale of ridiculousness.

I think that you need to learn more perfectly the basics of the Christian faith so that you are not trying to subscribe to Judaism as well as some aspects of Christianity. You have to be one or the other.

well your making some massive and incorrect assumptions to begin with .

i never said sin causes us to lose salvation .. i said "unrepentant sin which we are aware of and refuse to repent of"- will lose us our salvation.. -huge difference .
why any one would continue on rebelling against God in the face of so great a love i have no idea (save perhaps they love sin that much ).

you seem to be telling us that one can be saved and then ... continue in acts that are known to be sinful and still be saved .but that only takes us back to the un answered scenario asked about early in this thread .
(the scenario everyone avoids by saying "oh its just being extreme" .. and then they wont answer lol .)

so a man gets saved turns to the lord and is forgiven ..for ten years maybe more he lives as a good christian but them he goes astray because he desires some fleshly thing and gives into it .. ..but .. then he does so again and again and then he begins to deceive himself and he no longer turns from it but seeks it ..parties up divorces his wife , become so base in his ways he begins seeing men .. now hes involved in sodomy .. the Holy Spirit calls to him time and time again to repent and turn .. but he does not listen because you have told him he already repented and need not do so again, -then, in the midst of a party of debauchery while engaged in sex with men ..the Lord returns in glory ...

is that man saved ?.. according to the Lord he is not -there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


i'm surprised you were so quick to call what i said ridiculous.

Have you never sinned since you were saved ?..i know you have . did you not turn back to the lord and say lord i did wrong pleas forgive me .. and receive his forgiveness ?that is repentance ..
does not the new covenant enter us into the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus .Thus to listen to him, obey him, follow him ..is a state of being turned toward him ..when we turn away we must repent ..turn again our hearts To him .to end up and the destination of ones master one must follow the master.if we turn away from doing so we will not end up at the place he is leading us to .

 

[lori milne]

Jesus speaks clear about sin and never says any of it is ok! In fact he doesn't ever use the word grace!
The entire bibles word for grace out side of Paul's writing in Hebrew is favor in gods eyes! OT & NT Not undeserved that was adopted through Paul's teachings.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]7‬:[bless and do not curse]13-19, 26-27‬ KJV)

 

[lori milne]

Does this mean I don't believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins ? NO he did , I do believe every word of the bible, I just don't read what sounds warm and fussy and forget the rest.

Also
I do remember the first lie satin gave us and always compare it to what's being feed to the masses!
That lie was sin / eat the apple and you shale not die but live forever . Sinning is not ever ok
God said don't eat it or touch the apple /sin IF we eat the apple/ we shall surely die.

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

well your making some massive and incorrect assumptions to begin with .

i never said sin causes us to lose salvation .. i said "unrepentant sin which we are aware of and refuse to repent of"- will lose us our salvation.. -huge difference .
why any one would continue on rebelling against God in the face of so great a love i have no idea (save perhaps they love sin that much ).

you seem to be telling us that one can be saved and then ... continue in acts that are known to be sinful and still be saved .but that only takes us back to the un answered scenario asked about early in this thread .
(the scenario everyone avoids by saying "oh its just being extreme" .. and then they wont answer lol .)

so a man gets saved turns to the lord and is forgiven ..for ten years maybe more he lives as a good christian but them he goes astray because he desires some fleshly thing and gives into it .. ..but .. then he does so again and again and then he begins to deceive himself and he no longer turns from it but seeks it ..parties up divorces his wife , become so base in his ways he begins seeing men .. now hes involved in sodomy .. the Holy Spirit calls to him time and time again to repent and turn .. but he does not listen because you have told him he already repented and need not do so again, -then, in the midst of a party of debauchery while engaged in sex with men ..the Lord returns in glory ...

is that man saved ?.. according to the Lord he is not -there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


i'm surprised you were so quick to call what i said ridiculous.

Have you never sinned since you were saved ?..i know you have . did you not turn back to the lord and say lord i did wrong pleas forgive me .. and receive his forgiveness ?that is repentance ..
does not the new covenant enter us into the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus .Thus to listen to him, obey him, follow him ..is a state of being turned toward him ..when we turn away we must repent ..turn again our hearts To him .to end up and the destination of ones master one must follow the master.if we turn away from doing so we will not end up at the place he is leading us to .

so its not down to the sin merely the quantity and quality of the sin, still that makes no sense.
may I ask why do some sins get paid for by the blood of Jesus but seemingly not others?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

well your making some massive and incorrect assumptions to begin with .

i never said sin causes us to lose salvation .. i said "unrepentant sin which we are aware of and refuse to repent of"- will lose us our salvation.. -huge difference .
why any one would continue on rebelling against God in the face of so great a love i have no idea (save perhaps they love sin that much ).

If a person refuses to repent then they still need to get saved because they are not born again and therefore remain carnally minded.

you seem to be telling us that one can be saved and then ... continue in acts that are known to be sinful and still be saved .but that only takes us back to the un answered scenario asked about early in this thread .

I
When a person is saved they are justified. This means they are released from the guilt and penalty of sin. But we retain our sinful bodies and therefore are being progressively sanctified.

(the scenario everyone avoids by saying "oh its just being extreme" .. and then they wont answer lol .)

so a man gets saved turns to the lord and is forgiven ..for ten years maybe more he lives as a good christian but them he goes astray because he desires some fleshly thing and gives into it .. ..but .. then he does so again and again and then he begins to deceive himself and he no longer turns from it but seeks it ..parties up divorces his wife , become so base in his ways he begins seeing men .. now hes involved in sodomy .. the Holy Spirit calls to him time and time again to repent and turn .. but he does not listen because you have told him he already repented and need not do so again, -then, in the midst of a party of debauchery while engaged in sex with men ..the Lord returns in glory ...

is that man saved ?.. according to the Lord he is not -there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Someone like that might have for religion to the degree that he could appear to look exactly like a Christian and it could be very difficult to believe he is not. But the person you describe is not saved. He still has a carnal, unrenewed heart.

i'm surprised you were so quick to call what i said ridiculous.

Have you never sinned since you were saved ?..i know you have . did you not turn back to the lord and say lord i did wrong pleas forgive me .. and receive his forgiveness ?that is repentance ..

You are confusing what we experience in our sinful bodies and the sin that requires repentance. A born again Christian is already on the road of developing sanctification. He doesn't need to repent all over again. He has already changed direction. We are already forgiven once and for all. We are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Yes, we do acknowledge when we strike out but we don't go right back and ask for the forgiveness we already have in Christ. It is Old Covenant thinking to go and offer another sacrifice every time we do something wrong..

does not the new covenant enter us into the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus .Thus to listen to him, obey him, follow him ..is a state of being turned toward him ..when we turn away we must repent ..turn again our hearts To him .to end up and the destination of ones master one must follow the master.if we turn away from doing so we will not end up at the place he is leading us to .

But we don't turn away from Him if we are truly born again and are living as new creatures. Our hearts are always inclined to Christ. We are being transformed each day to be conformed to Christ until we are one mind with Him.Thats what my Bible says about me. Does your Bible tell you that your heart is not perfect before God, that you are turning back from Him one day and having to turn back around the next? My Bible tells me that I am seated with Christ at the right hand of God, totally forgiven for all time, fee from sin-consciousness, a brother of Jesus, and filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not my master, He is my brother. After the day of Pentecost thee is no further reference to a servant/master relationship with Christ. The scripture says we are no longer servants but sons of God and joint heirs with Christ. If you still see yourself as a servant and still needing constant doses of forgiveness then you need to figure out which covenant you are living in.

 

[lori milne]

so its not down to the sin merely the quantity and quality of the sin, still that makes no sense. may I ask why do some sins get paid for by the blood of Jesus but seemingly not others?

It is your faith in him and what he is telling us about sin and how we through him and the word can turn from our sins and not even thirst for it! That's His promise!

And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]9‬:[bless and do not curse]2, 4, 6‬ KJV)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jesus speaks clear about sin and never says any of it is ok! In fact he doesn't ever use the word grace!
The entire bibles word for grace out side of Paul's writing in Hebrew is favor in gods eyes! OT & NT Not undeserved that was adopted through Paul's teachings.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. ([bless and do not curse]Matthew‬ [bless and do not curse]7‬:[bless and do not curse]13-19, 26-27‬ KJV)

This is all Old Covenant, written for unconverted Jews.

 

[Dave-W]

You have a wrong definition of repentance. Repentance happens only once and it is the act of turning from the world and accepting Christ as Saviour. As a result we are set free from the guilt and penalty of our sinfulness as I stated in my previous post.

Actually you have the wrong definition of repentance. Teshuva (OT Hebrew) and Metanoin (NT Greek) mean to change your thinking and doing.

This is an ongoing process for the believer. There are many things that we do not know to be sinful until such a point as the Holy Spirit (who convicts of sin) points it out to us. At this point we need to agree and start thinking of said activity/attitude as sinful (metanoin) and change our behavior. (teshuva)

THAT is repentance.

The apostle John agrees with this when he wrote:

1 John 1:9 If we [as believers] confess our sins, [agree in our thinking that said activity is sin and saying so out loud] He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As I said in another thread you should start digging into Derek Prince's materials. I suggest starting with his "Foundation Series."

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

Actually you have the wrong definition of repentance. Teshuva (OT Hebrew) and Metanoin (NT Greek) mean to change your thinking and doing.

This is an ongoing process for the believer. There are many things that we do not know to be sinful until such a point as the Holy Spirit (who convicts of sin) points it out to us. At this point we need to agree and start thinking of said activity/attitude as sinful (metanoin) and change our behavior. (teshuva)

THAT is repentance.

The apostle John agrees with this when he wrote:

1 John 1:9 If we [as believers] confess our sins, [agree in our thinking that said activity is sin and saying so out loud] He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As I said in another thread you should start digging into Derek Prince's materials. I suggest starting with his "Foundation Series."

strongs talks of a change of mind, the mind changes when you accept Jesus for your salvation, you cease the rebellion you are no longer against God.