Kansas to criminalize sex education...

[TLK Valentine]

Yep...and likewise, there are millions of people having unprotected sex each day.

...the end result of each of these realities:

Today (In the USA), we will have 27,000 car accidents, and 9,000 unplanned pregnancies.



You're continuing the same flawed line of logic...you're speaking in generalities about cars, but delving into the details on sex.

Look at your statement in bold above, I could easily reply back with: "Look at the nature of car accidents, they occur so frequently, that seat belts, airbags, and tight driving restrictions on youth were developed to deal with it".

You brush the details aside to try to prove you point, but the reality, cars/driving is one of the most regulated things in our society due to the danger it presents when you move a 3,000 pound hunk of metal at 60mph.

So...back to TLK's question, should we go the abtinence-only driving route?

Car accidents are the number one killer of teens, and the only way to guarantee that they won't be a statistic, is to stop the from driving altogether...right???

It says a lot the defense of abstinence-only education programs end up being just as disingenuous as the programs themselves.

Says a lot, really.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Put it this way.

Imagine those millions and millions driving their cars today. How many will have accidents? Very few.

Now imagine if when the rest got home they all had unprotected sex. How many would result in pregnancies? A very great many.

While you use your imagination, we'll continue to use the facts. While you chant mantras, we'll continue to use data.

Guess which one works better?

 

[JustOneWay]

While you use your imagination, we'll continue to use the facts. While you chant mantras, we'll continue to use data.

Guess which one works better?

I suppose we have to call this discussion a car wreck, and not a train wreck....

 

[Glass*Soul]

Cars vs. Sex aside, why is the teen pregnancy rate so astonishingly low in the Netherlands? What are they doing differently?

http://www.dutchdailynews.com/dutch-teen-pregnancy-rate-among-lowest-in-the-world/

 

[Belk]

No you don't.

You may have data that Abstinence is badly taught, but that does not invalidate the message.

Contraception is not 100% effective against either STDs or unplanned pregnancy.

On top of which it enables and encourages promiscuity (by removing the surface consequences of disease and pregnancy); promoting people as being disposable sexual consumer objects.

Abstinence however IS 100% effective against both STDS and unplanned pregnancy. It also thus does away with abortion as well.

Furthermore it in no way enables or encourages promiscuity.

Which is better?

A less effective means of controlling disease and unplanned pregnancy, which also encourages and enables the treating of people as disposable goods?

A 100% effective means of controlling disease and unplanned pregnancy, which also in no way encourages and enables the treating of people as disposable goods?

If we think with our brain, rather than our genitals, and the answer is obvious.

The question is....are people able to understand that, or are they so bovine as to ignore it and fornicate like a bunch of brainless animals? If the latter...why treat them with the dignity of humans?

As a Christian you do not get to claim this.

 

[Inkfingers]

As a Christian you do not get to claim this.

Ho ho

 

[Belk]

Ho ho

 

[Supreme]

As a Christian you do not get to claim this.

Why?

 

[Inkfingers]

Why?

Mary

 

[Dave Ellis]

No you don't.

You may have data that Abstinence is badly taught, but that does not invalidate the message.

Contraception is not 100% effective against either STDs or unplanned pregnancy.

On top of which it enables and encourages promiscuity (by removing the surface consequences of disease and pregnancy); promoting people as being disposable sexual consumer objects.

Abstinence however IS 100% effective against both STDS and unplanned pregnancy. It also thus does away with abortion as well.

Furthermore it in no way enables or encourages promiscuity.

Which is better?

A less effective means of controlling disease and unplanned pregnancy, which also encourages and enables the treating of people as disposable goods?

A 100% effective means of controlling disease and unplanned pregnancy, which also in no way encourages and enables the treating of people as disposable goods?

If we think with our brain, rather than our genitals, and the answer is obvious.

The question is....are people able to understand that, or are they so bovine as to ignore it and fornicate like a bunch of brainless animals? If the latter...why treat them with the dignity of humans?

You're making the common error of conflating abstinence with abstinence only education.

Abstinence is indeed 100% effective at preventing pregnancy, abstinence only education is not 100% effective at making people abstinent however.

To make a long story short, even if you teach every teenager in the country that having sex is bad and they shouldn't do it, a certain percentage of them are still going to have sex. To ignore that fact helps nobody.

So, we have a situation where inevitably some teenagers are going to be sexually active... it is going to happen. You can either not teach them how contraception works leaving them vulnerable to unwanted pregnancies, or even worse you can spread misinformation about the effectiveness of contraception to discourage its use.... or you can educate them how to properly protect themselves when they do become sexually active.

Option one and two is often practiced in the "bible belt" states, and the stats show a consistently higher rate of teen pregnancy and STD's. Option three is often practiced in the rest of the civilized world, and consistently produce lower levels of teen pregnancy and STD's.

It's a pretty obvious situation we have here...

 

[Inkfingers]

You're making the common error of conflating abstinence with abstinence only education.

Abstinence is indeed 100% effective at preventing pregnancy, abstinence only education is not 100% effective at making people abstinent however.

I'm not conflating anything. Both Abstinence and Contraception rely on people actually acting on the advice.

And I have already noted that the criticisms should not be at Abstinence itself but at how it is taught - if taught badly of course it will not work....just as if Contraception is taught badly people won't use that either.

To make a long story short, even if you teach every teenager in the country that having sex is bad and they shouldn't do it, a certain percentage of them are still going to have sex. To ignore that fact helps nobody.

You could similarly say that a small percentage will also continue to have "unprotected" sex, even if you taught every teenager about contraception.

So, we have a situation where inevitably some teenagers are going to be sexually active... it is going to happen.

Indeed.

And then you have to weigh up the harm caused by contraception use as compared to a society that has no contraception.

It isn't just a matter of STDs and Pregnancy - as I have been saying from the start - but advocates of contraception try to get the argument to only look at those issues.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Abstinence is only effective when it's practiced.

However, only 3-20% of people successfully wait until marriage to have sex (source: 4 Cool Statistics About Abstinence in the USA | WaitingTillMarriage.org ). That's a failure rate of at least 80%.

That means if someone is taught abstinence only, they have a HUGE chance of not actually successfully using it as a birth control method.

Contraception failure rates, on the other hand:
Condoms: 12%
Natural Family Planning: 24%
Diaphragm: 12%
Hormonal Ring: 9%
Oral birth control: 9%
Birth control injection: 6%
Birth control implant: 0.05%
Spermicides: 28%
(Source: CDC - Contraception - Reproductive Health )

Even the riskiest birth control method has a MUCH lower failure rate than abstinence does.

 

[Inkfingers]

Abstinence is only effective when it's practiced.

So is contraception.

And even then, it often falls short of 100% effective.

And that's before we get the added impacts that contraceptive use has in society.

 

[KitKatMatt]

So is contraception.

And that's exactly why we need to teach people how to correctly use contraception.

Having unprotected sex is incredibly risky and should be avoided unless you and your partner have been tested for STDs and are ready for the possibility of children.

 

[Inkfingers]

And that's exactly why we need to teach people how to correctly use contraception.

And its exactly why we need to teach people abstinence properly.

Abstinence is 100% effective against STDs and unplanned pregnancy.

Contraception isn't.

And thats before we even get in to the extra problems that contraception brings in society.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I'm not conflating anything. Both Abstinence and Contraception rely on people actually acting on the advice.

And I have already noted that the criticisms should not be at Abstinence itself but at how it is taught - if taught badly of course it will not work....just as if Contraception is taught badly people won't use that either.

The problem is if abstinence is taught well, it's still not going to work. Again, some people are going to have sex no matter how much you tell them they shouldn't.

Abstinence only education fails because it ignores that simple reality. It leaves people unprepared when they do become sexually active, which is inevitably going to happen.

You could similarly say that a small percentage will also continue to have "unprotected" sex, even if you taught every teenager about contraception.

Sure, however that number will be dramatically lowered, and those who use contraception will know how to use it properly, which also dramatically lowers failure rates of various forms of contraception.

Indeed.

And then you have to weigh up the harm caused by contraception use as compared to a society that has no contraception.

It isn't just a matter of STDs and Pregnancy - as I have been saying from the start - but advocates of contraception try to get the argument to only look at those issues.

And what's the harm caused by contraception use compared to non contraception use?

 

[Dave Ellis]

And its exactly why we need to teach people abstinence properly.

Abstinence is 100% effective against STDs and unplanned pregnancy.

Contraception isn't.

And thats before we even get in to the extra problems that contraception brings in society.

Except the population is not going to stay abstinent. You're ignoring that fact again.

 

[Inkfingers]

The problem is if abstinence is taught well, it's still not going to work. Again, some people are going to have sex no matter how much you tell them they shouldn't.

The problem is if contraception is taught well, it's still not going to work. Again, some people are going to have unprotected sex no matter how much you tell them they shouldn't.

See. Cuts both ways.

Abstinence only education fails because it ignores that simple reality. It leaves people unprepared when they do become sexually active, which is inevitably going to happen.

So what you are saying is that people are too stupid and impulsive for abstinence only education and should be allowed contraception because its easier for the bovine to use? In effect, yes.

And what's the harm caused by contraception use compared to non contraception use?

I listed them earlier, go back and look.

 

[Cearbhall]

And its exactly why we need to teach people abstinence properly.

We do...sex ed courses make it clear that no method of contraception is 100% effective, and the only way to ensure that you don't become pregnant is to not have sex. They also teach about consent and your right to refuse sex.

Abstinence is 100% effective against STDs

Whoa, whoa. No, it's not, and it's important that people know it isn't. Every person who's alive should know better than that.

 

[Inkfingers]

We do...sex ed courses make it clear that no method of contraception is 100% effective, and the only way to ensure that you don't become pregnant is to not have sex.

Lol, that isn't teaching them. Its just throwing a sentence at them. Teaching them is showing them the impact of the choices, fully, not the mangled ideology of planned parenthood.

Whoa, whoa. No, it's not, and it's important that people know it isn't. Every person who's alive should know better than that.

Please tell me how you catch STDs when abstaining from Sex...