Kansas to criminalize sex education...

Cearbhall

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Lol, that isn't teaching them. Its just throwing a sentence at them. Teaching them is showing them the impact of the choices, fully, not the mangled ideology of planned parenthood.
Do you have an example of a sex ed course that does not present the facts, risks, and potential consequences in an accurate and objective manner? Mine certainly did the job well. If there's an example of a curriculum that you would like to discuss, we can do so, but I'm not interested in discussing your suppositions of what such courses fail to do.
Please tell me how you catch STDs when abstaining from Sex...
Are you really telling me that you're 44 years old and aren't aware that you can catch certain STDs without having sexual relations? And this is supposed to convince me that we shouldn't be teaching people about these things?

This. ^ This is why everyone should receive comprehensive sex education as a young person.
 
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Inkfingers

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Do you have an example of a sex ed course that does not present the facts, risks, and potential consequences in an accurate and objective manner? Mine certainly did the job well. If there's an example of a curriculum that you would like to discuss, we can do so, but I'm not interested in discussing your suppositions of what such courses fail to do.

Are you really telling me that you're 44 years old and aren't aware that you can catch any STD without having sexual relations?

This. ^ This is why everyone should receive comprehensive sex education as a young person.
You misunderstand.

If you and your husband are abstinent, there is no way you will catch an STD.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'm not conflating anything. Both Abstinence and Contraception rely on people actually acting on the advice.

And I have already noted that the criticisms should not be at Abstinence itself but at how it is taught - if taught badly of course it will not work....just as if Contraception is taught badly people won't use that either.

The difference, of course, is that nobody seems to be looking for a better way to teach Abstinence-only... why else are the current programs filled with half-truths, misinformation, skewed facts, self-imposed taboos, and outright lies?

Now, if there is a way to teach Abstinence-only without resorting to these tactics, I'm all ears. However, you yourself have resorted to the same tactics while defending Abstinence, so personally, I'm not optimistic.

You can only say "Don't do it!" so many times before the kids tune out.

You can only hide information for so long before the kids find it for themselves.

You can only lie to the kids so many times before they stop trusting you completely.

I fear that Abstinence-only "education" has long since passed that point. Your credibility is shot.

ETA: You're wrong again -- if contraception is taught badly, people will still use it; they'll just use it wrong.

Same thing happens if you don't teach it at all.

So which is better?

Not teaching it at all, or teaching it correctly?
 
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Cearbhall

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You misunderstand.

If you and your husband are abstinent, there is no way you will catch an STD.
No, you are completely, 100% wrong, and please don't go around telling people such dangerous nonsense.

I'm not a fan of people who speak from a place of ignorance and want to keep the next generation in the dark as well.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Do you have an example of a sex ed course that does not present the facts, risks, and potential consequences in an accurate and objective manner? Mine certainly did the job well. If there's an example of a curriculum that you would like to discuss, we can do so, but I'm not interested in discussing your suppositions of what such courses fail to do.

Are you really telling me that you're 44 years old and aren't aware that you can catch certain STDs without having sexual relations? And this is supposed to convince me that we shouldn't be teaching people about these things?

This. ^ This is why everyone should receive comprehensive sex education as a young person.

All this time I thought the Abstinence-only crowd was lying to us -- turns out they honestly don't know a thing.
 
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Cearbhall

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All this time I thought the Abstinence-only crowd was lying to us -- turns out they honestly don't know a thing.
I mean, I can almost understand his position now, if all this time he's been under the impression that abstinence is a catch-all solution.

Almost.
 
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KitKatMatt

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You misunderstand.

If you and your husband are abstinent, there is no way you will catch an STD.

Contact with other people's blood, sharing needles, kissing someone (even non-sexually), drinking after someone, being born vaginally and having an STD transmitted from mother to child, a mother having a high HIV viral load when she was pregnant and passing it on to a child, etc.

My GRANDMOTHER gave me mono by sipping out of my drink, and got it from my cousin the same way. I have since become obsessive about making sure no one touches my drinks or food.
 
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Inkfingers

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Now, if there is a way to teach Abstinence-only without resorting to these tactics, I'm all ears.

I doubt that, seeing as I have started to illustrate how contraception is harmful but you just ignore it.

You can only say "Don't do it!" so many times before the kids tune out.

You can say the same for unprotected sex.

You can only hide information for so long before the kids find it for themselves.

Indeed. They will eventually find out the hard way just how harmful contraception really is.

Basically, what you are saying is that people are too thick and impulsive to practice abstinence so they need to be given the easy option of contraception which does not strain their bovine brains a much.

Try telling them that and see the reaction....
 
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Inkfingers

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Contact with other people's blood, sharing needles, kissing someone (even non-sexually), drinking after someone, being born vaginally and having an STD transmitted from mother to child, your mother having a high HIV viral load when she was pregnant and passing it on to a child, etc.

My GRANDMOTHER gave me mono by sipping out of my drink, and got it from my cousin the same way. I have since become obsessive about making sure no one touches my drinks or food.

Get real. None of those things are protected by contraception so are not part of the discussion. Abstinence doesn't protect you from viruses. It protects you from diseases that are being transmitted sexually. The clue is in the name.

Changing the definition is moving the goalposts and dishonest.
 
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Cearbhall

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I'm including STDs that can be contracted through sexual activities besides intercourse, since I'm not sure how you personally define "abstinence." These are just a couple I thought of right away. I can post more if the point doesn't get across. And guess where I learned most of this information!

  • Mono - sharing drinks
  • HIV - contaminated needle
  • HIV - mother to fetus
  • Herpes - kissing, oral sex
  • Chlamydia - oral sex
When an athlete starts bleeding during a game, he or she is banned from the game until the wound is covered and there's no risk of exposing the other players to the blood. This was true even in my middle school sports.
That is so shockingly inaccurate it isn't funny.
The irony of the misinformation coming from someone who's promoting abstinence-only education is hilarious, though.
 
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Inkfingers

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I'm including STDs that can be contracted through sexual activities besides intercourse, since I'm not sure how you personally define "abstinence."

Abstinence means NO sex acts.

And see above for the rest.
 
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KitKatMatt

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Get real. None of those things are protected by contraception so are not part of the discussion. Abstinence doesn't protect you from viruses. It protects you from diseases that are being transmitted sexually.

Changing the definition is moving the goalposts and dishonest.

You asked how you could get an STD while practicing abstinence, and I gave you the reasons.

Uh... some STDs ARE viruses. HIV is a virus. Herpes is a virus. Do you seriously not know what causes these diseases?

Also, barrier contraception DOES protect against STDs, with the exception of herpes and HPV if the area of a flare up is not covered by the barrier. Source: https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/aids/consumers/condoms/faqs.htm
 
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Inkfingers

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You asked how you could get an STD while practicing abstinence, and I gave you the reasons.

Uh... some STDs ARE viruses. HIV is a virus. Herpes is a virus. Do you seriously not know what causes these diseases?

Also, barrier contraception DOES protect against STDs, with the exception of herpes and HPV if the area of a flare up is not covered by the barrier. Source: https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/aids/consumers/condoms/faqs.htm

Barrier contraception splits.

And STDs are diseases that are transmitted sexually. Abstinence stops diseases being transmitted sexually, so it is 100% effective. You cant bring in drinks unless you are going to put a condom over your coke can. :doh:
 
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Cearbhall

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Get real. None of those things are protected by contraception so are not part of the discussion.
We aren't addressing the issues with contraception. We're addressing your claim that abstinence will protect you against STDs 100%.
Abstinence means NO sex acts.
Wait, you expect people to wait until marriage to kiss? Your dichotomy of saints and harlots puts couples who kiss in the latter group?
 
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Inkfingers

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We aren't addressing the issues with contraception. We're addressing your claim that abstinence will protect you against STDs 100%.

And it will. You will never catch a disease that is being transmitted sexually if you abstain from all sex acts.

You may catch diseases other ways, such as drinks cans, but unless you are putting a condom on your can that point is irrelevant and rather sad goal-post moving.

The point is made, and you are avoiding it. I'll leave it there for now as not being a horse I don't enjoy running round in circles. :)
 
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Cearbhall

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Do you seriously not know what causes these diseases?
How would he if he was never taught it and he never sought out the information on his own? Every word he says validates comprehensive sex ed.
 
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Dave Ellis

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The problem is if contraception is taught well, it's still not going to work. Again, some people are going to have unprotected sex no matter how much you tell them they shouldn't.

See. Cuts both ways.

No, it doesn't. You're trying to equate them when they are not equivalent.

Many (not all, but many) forms of contraception are over 99% effective. Abstinence only education doesn't come close to that level of effectiveness.

Teaching these people how contraception works will encourage more people to use it. Will everyone always use contraception? No, and nobody is claiming that's the case.

However, it will encourage more people to use it when they become sexually active, and that translates into lower instances of teen pregnancy and STD transmission. It has statistically proven itself to be effective.

Abstinence only education has proven time and time again to be less effective than comprehensive sex education in regards to preventing pregnancy and STDs. That's just the simple facts.

So what you are saying is that people are too stupid and impulsive for abstinence only education and should be allowed contraception because its easier for the bovine to use? In effect, yes.

Too stupid? No Too impulsive? Sure. It's not like people haven't fallen prey to their raging hormones before, especially in their teenage years.

Not sure what you're talking about with bovines though... I don't recommend sex with cows....

I listed them earlier, go back and look. :)

I jumped into this thread rather late, which post is it?
 
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