Why does everyone hate Mary so much?

[barryatlake]

Josiah, some apostolic/Christian writings contain those true facts on Mary, in those particular books, along with other letters, some of the other contents were taken for granted by the Christian community and eliminated from taken up valuable space while other information found to be errant so those books/writings were not considered Canonical, but, more than one book contains the same true information on the Blessed Virgin Mary. John 20;30 mentions that not all people, places and wonders of Jesus' life is contained in the Holy Bible.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Why did you delete the Scriptures you referenced and replace it all with your personal, fallible, human opinions?


IMO, those who believe that gossip about Mary is to be avoided (perhaps even that gossip is wrong, perhaps even sinful), those who do not state AS DOGMA how often Mary and Joseph had relations (if at all), what happened to Mary's body at the microsecond of Her death (or was it undeath) or may perhaps be SILENT on all those issues, are NOT therefore, on that basis, because of that, documenting their HATRED for Mary. After all, Jesus never stated what happened to Mary's body or a thing about relations between Mary and Joseph (he was silent, as far as we know) so it just seems silly to me to insist ergo Jesus HATES Mary. I think the whole issue of this thread is absurd - and offensive - and divisive.... and thoughtless.




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Josiah, some apostolic/Christian writings contain those true facts on Mary

I asked why you REFERENCED all those Scriptures then deleted all the words of them and substituted instead your own personal, human, fallible opinions?

And how does the belief that gossip about Mary is to be avoided (perhaps even that gossip is wrong, perhaps even sinful), those who do not state AS DOGMA how often Mary and Joseph had relations (if at all), what happened to Mary's body at the microsecond of Her death (or was it undeath) or may perhaps be SILENT on all those issues, are NOT therefore, on that basis, because of that, documenting their HATRED for Mary? After all, Jesus never stated what happened to Mary's body or a thing about relations between Mary and Joseph (he was silent, as far as we know) so it just seems silly to me to insist ergo Jesus HATES Mary.

John 20;30 mentions that not all people, places and wonders of Jesus' life is contained in the Holy Bible.

No, it does not. And it does not say that gossip is okay as long as it's about Mary or that whatever is said happened ergo dogmatically did or that what the Gospel of John does NOT say ergo is what is true. And it says nothing about those who HATE Mary (the issue of this thread, the topic of our discussion here).




Thank you.


Pax



- Josiah








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[Metal Minister]

Only a sola scripturist would treat the sacred scriptures like a joke.

Do you understand how backwards this statement is?

 

[Albion]

Do you understand how backwards this statement is?

Probably not.

 

[tadoflamb]

Do you understand how backwards this statement is?

From outward appearances it would seem like it, but the latest trend here is whenever I share the Sacred Scriptures with your co-religious they start slapping their knees. So, even though the sola scripturist claims to have the highest regard of the bible, sharing it with them is of no avail. It only brings ridicule. The Sacred Scriptures are sacred to me. I keep them on my mind, lips and heart always. Unfortunately, at the hands of the sola scripturists, the Sacred Scriptures suffer a thousand tiny deaths. What for me is deep and meaningful is easily dismissed by the sola scripturist with a simple, "I don't see it", and in doing so suck the life from the sacred texts.

Perhaps this is what the priest in Lourdes meant when on my recent visit he warned me about putting my pearls before swine. Not that I think you're a bunch of pigs, it's just dismaying for me to see something I consider sacred trampled by those who claim to hold them in the highest esteem.


But, this isn't the sola scriptura thread, this is a Marian thread.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

From outward appearances it would seem like it, but the latest trend here is whenever I share the Sacred Scriptures with your co-religious they start slapping their knees. So, even though the sola scripturist claims to have the highest regard of the bible, sharing it with them is of no avail.

Here is what I'VE often seen for the past 10 years.... Catholics REFERRING to a verse but deleting and ignoring ALL the words thereof and substituting their own human, personal, individual, fallilble OPINION in lieu of, in stead of, in place of the words of Scripture.

OR.... not paying any attention whatsoever to the words they just quoted - therefore not even noticing (of often, it seems, caring) what the words they quoted actually are. It seems the "verse" they are "quoting" is a phantom of invisible words NOT THERE except (they insist) by "implication" or "suggesting a question" which they then "answer."


But so far, no Catholic has quoted (or even misquoted) any Scripture to support that all Protestants specifically HATE Mary - the topic of this thread and the subject of our discussion. And.... I just find it.... curious and revealing.... if some Protestant had a thread about how all Catholics HATE Mary - why, reports would fly, infractions would get issued like Halloween candy, the thread would be closed and mod hat posts would SHOUT about not being so hateful and rude and divisive and Catholics would go on and on and on and on about how the world is full of anti-Catholics. Oh well.

The Sacred Scriptures are sacred to me.

Me, too. But then when the words are ignored, deleted and evaded - that doesn't suggest respect at all. Just the opposite. And when OTHER words are then SUBSTITUTED as "implied" or "suggested" or "better" or "God MEANT to say this rather than that" or "just invisible" all that confirms to me a profound disrespect for Scripture.

solo scripturist saying "I don't see it"

Could not possibly be easier to correct. Just quote the words. If the word(s) are there, then they are. You might embolden or underline or enlarge the word you don't think others can see (perhaps their eyesight not being as good as yours). IF what you say is the case, then you have it so easy to show the words ARE there. But I think you say say is silly and not the case. IMO, the "problem" is that the Catholic at times is "seeing" phantoms..... invisible "words"...... words NOT there...... because they aren't there. Like the boy in "The Sixth Sense" they claim they can "see" ghosts. But even if so, then they are not "seeing" Scripture.... they are seeing their ghost. I think this is not only showing profound disrespect (and dishonesty) toward non-RCC'ers but, more importantly, a great disrespect for God and His Scripture. If the words are there - then all you need to do is QUOTE them (underline or embolden or enlarge if you think the Protestant's eyes are failing). The fact that you can't only proves they aren't there to see. You've just deleted Scripture (out of profound disregard and disrespect for Scripture) and substituted phantoms - then claim only you can "see" these ghost words of yours. THAT is what I note Catholics at times doing.

this is a Marian thread.

With a singular focus: how all Protestants specifically HATE Mary. An accusation no Catholic or staffer seems to have the least problem with, and no Catholic seems to care if its true or not.






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[Metal Minister]

From outward appearances it would seem like it, but the latest trend here is whenever I share the Sacred Scriptures with your co-religious they start slapping their knees. So, even though the sola scripturist claims to have the highest regard of the bible, sharing it with them is of no avail. It only brings ridicule. The Sacred Scriptures are sacred to me. I keep them on my mind, lips and heart always. Unfortunately, at the hands of the sola scripturists, the Sacred Scriptures suffer a thousand tiny deaths. What for me is deep and meaningful is easily dismissed by the sola scripturist with a simple, "I don't see it", and in doing so suck the life from the sacred texts.

If your argument from scripture doesn't mesh with its context, or if you haven't explained your position thoroughly enough, this is bound to happen....

Perhaps this is what the priest in Lourdes meant when on my recent visit he warned me about putting my pearls before swine. Not that I think you're a bunch of pigs, it's just dismaying for me to see something I consider sacred trampled by those who claim to hold them in the highest esteem.

You will never see me do anything other than hold the scriptures in the highest regard. I will disagree with an incorrect interpretation, but if I say "I don't see it" it means I'm asking for more information.

But, this isn't the sola scriptura thread, this is a Marian thread.

True

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is what I'VE often seen for the past 10 years.... Catholics REFERRING to a verse but deleting and ignoring ALL the words thereof and substituting their own human, personal, individual, fallilble OPINION in lieu of, in stead of, in place of the words of Scripture.

OR.... not paying any attention whatsoever to the words they just quoted - therefore not even noticing (of often, it seems, caring) what the words they quoted actually are. It seems the "verse" they are "quoting" is a phantom of invisible words NOT THERE except (they insist) by "implication" or "suggesting a question" which they then "answer."

But so far, no Catholic has quoted (or even misquoted) any Scripture to support that all Protestants specifically HATE Mary - the topic of this thread and the subject of our discussion. And.... I just find it.... curious and revealing.... if some Protestant had a thread about how all Catholics HATE Mary - why, reports would fly, infractions would get issued like Halloween candy, the thread would be closed and mod hat posts would SHOUT about not being so hateful and rude and divisive and Catholics would go on and on and on and on about how the world is full of anti-Catholics. Oh well.

Me, too. But then when the words are ignored, deleted and evaded - that doesn't suggest respect at all. Just the opposite. And when OTHER words are then SUBSTITUTED as "implied" or "suggested" or "better" or "God MEANT to say this rather than that" or "just invisible" all that confirms to me a profound disrespect for Scripture.

Could not possibly be easier to correct. Just quote the words. If the word(s) are there, then they are. You might embolden or underline or enlarge the word you don't think others can see (perhaps their eyesight not being as good as yours). IF what you say is the case, then you have it so easy to show the words ARE there. But I think you say say is silly and not the case. IMO, the "problem" is that the Catholic at times is "seeing" phantoms..... invisible "words"...... words NOT there...... because they aren't there. Like the boy in "The Sixth Sense" they claim they can "see" ghosts. But even if so, then they are not "seeing" Scripture.... they are seeing their ghost. I think this is not only showing profound disrespect (and dishonesty) toward non-RCC'ers but, more importantly, a great disrespect for God and His Scripture. If the words are there - then all you need to do is QUOTE them (underline or embolden or enlarge if you think the Protestant's eyes are failing). The fact that you can't only proves they aren't there to see. You've just deleted Scripture (out of profound disregard and disrespect for Scripture) and substituted phantoms - then claim only you can "see" these ghost words of yours. THAT is what I note Catholics at times doing.

With a singular focus: how all Protestants specifically HATE Mary. An accusation no Catholic or staffer seems to have the least problem with, and no Catholic seems to care if its true or not.

This reminds me of the cut-and-paste list of alleged citations in the New Testament of Deuterocanonical books posted by BarryatLake. It is obvious that he never read any of the passages which he cited as irrefutable evidence. As a result, I have been examining each in their order and finding them to be fallacious.

It is a great pity to me that so many individuals (Protestant as well as Catholic) who claim a high view of scripture actually rarely, if ever, read it.

 

[tadoflamb]

Here's what I know so far:

Sola scripturists aren't in the biblical habit of calling the Blessed Mother 'blessed' but taunt those who are.

Sola scripturists don't behold their mother as Jesus told them from the Cross but taunt those who do.

Sola scripturists won't pray the Hail Mary, the first part which comes directly for the bible, but taunt those who do.

Sola scripturists are good with the Father concept, but when Jesus tells us he won't leave us orphans they forget about the mother.

I don't know, maybe this kind of neglect would equal abuse. I'm not sure.

What I am sure of is that I hope no one considers their own mothers a bit player in their own lives as well as just an earthly vessel to bring you into the world. And certainly for those mothers who have gone on to the life to come no one calls them 'dead sinners'.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Here's what I know so far:

Sola scripturists aren't in the biblical habit of calling the Blessed Mother 'blessed' but taunt those who are.

Sola scripturists don't behold their mother as Jesus told them from the Cross but taunt those who do.

Sola scripturists won't pray the Hail Mary, the first part which comes directly for the bible, but taunt those who do.

Sola scripturists are good with the Father concept, but when Jesus tells us he won't leave us orphans they forget about the mother.

I don't know, maybe this kind of neglect would equal abuse. I'm not sure.

What I am sure of is that I hope no one considers their own mothers a bit player in their own lives as well as just an earthly vessel to bring you into the world. And certainly for those mothers who have gone on to the life to come no one calls them 'dead sinners'.

And as I said before, and will probably say again, the inappropriate negative stuff you are aware of is NOT directed at MARY but at YOU. You speak of being "taunted". . . . and I'm sure a lot of that was sinful, and should not have happened, but it was not a hatred of Mary. It was against you.

 

[topcare]

Here's what I know so far:

Sola scripturists aren't in the biblical habit of calling the Blessed Mother 'blessed' but taunt those who are.

Sola scripturists don't behold their mother as Jesus told them from the Cross but taunt those who do.

Sola scripturists won't pray the Hail Mary, the first part which comes directly for the bible, but taunt those who do.

Sola scripturists are good with the Father concept, but when Jesus tells us he won't leave us orphans they forget about the mother.

I don't know, maybe this kind of neglect would equal abuse. I'm not sure.

What I am sure of is that I hope no one considers their own mothers a bit player in their own lives as well as just an earthly vessel to bring you into the world. And certainly for those mothers who have gone on to the life to come no one calls them 'dead sinners'.

very spot on

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Did you notice that nowhere did you address SOLA SCRIPTURA? The only point in this whole exercise was to be more specific about your low opinion of non-Catholics. How wonderful.

But OK, we know that. We've always known that. Get back to me when you learn what Sola Scriptura means. Then we'll talk.

He's admitted he doesn't know what Sola Scriptura is (in spite of the verbatim definition being known by him) and thus cannot know who "sola scripturatarianists" are or believe or do. As he then illustrates this claim of his that he doesn't know.

And of course, the evasion of the topic: The claim that all Protestant specifically HATE Mary. Quite an accusation!!! Left entirely, wholly, completely unsubstantiated.





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[tadoflamb]

He's admitted he doesn't know what Sola Scriptura is (in spite of the verbatim definition being known by him) and thus cannot know who "sola scripturatarianists" are or believe or do. As he then illustrates this claim of his that he doesn't know.

And of course, the evasion of the topic: The claim that all Protestant specifically HATE Mary. Quite an accusation!!! Left entirely, wholly, completely unsubstantiated.

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For some reason, I pretty sure the verbatim definition of the praxis/doctrine/ideology of sola scriptura was written by you and I would just like to confirm by some other authority than the good sola scripturists on CF.

Back to the topic, I've yet to see anyone agree with the OP that all protestants hate Mary, however I have seen protestants openly admitting they hate calling Mary their mother. I know not all protestants feel this way, but that's the hallmark of the sola scripturist communities.

I think the OP has a point, and as such are reposting his first and last comments.

I believe Mary's my mother for various reasons. My Father is God in heaven. I know most will scoff and hate at that idea and that's fine.

I'm curious where the inner hate and denial for Mary comes from? Why do people hate the idea of calling Mary their mother? Where does this distance come from?

It seems like a fair question given the response on this thread.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

the verbatim definition of the praxis of sola scriptura was written by you

Nope. It was written in 1577 (I wasn't born yet). I simply copy/pasted the verbatim, historic, formal, official definition. And I gave the reference. I've been doing this for some 10 years here at CF (and elsewhere). Of course, Catholic are very persistent in evading it.



Back to the issue...





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[Metal Minister]

Does the RCC hate Mary as well? They seem to disagree with Catholic apologists in that they don't see Mary as the woman of Revelation 12...

* [12:1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from[bless and do not curse]Gn 37:9–10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6,[bless and do not curse]13–17); cf.[bless and do not curse]Is 50:1;[bless and do not curse]66:7;[bless and do not curse]Jer 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

* [12:2] Because of Eve’s sin, the woman gives birth in distress and pain (Gn 3:16; cf.[bless and do not curse]Is 66:7–14).

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/12

 

[yesyoushould]

Paul suggests that male and female no longer exist.

 

[Albion]

Paul suggests that male and female no longer exist.

...or that, in God's eyes, they have equal importance.

 

[Albion]

Does the RCC hate Mary as well? They seem to disagree with Catholic apologists in that they don't see Mary as the woman of Revelation 12...


scripture

Perhaps it should also be asked "Why do Catholics hate the Bible so much?"

As we see here on CF, not only is there the constant 'putting down' of the Bible, but it's also frequently described as "just a book" or by similar terms. In addition, for any of us to call Scripture the "Word of God" brings an immediate denial of the appropriateness and accuracy of such a term.

Isn't that basically what we've been told here constitutes the evidence that non-Catholics "hate" Mary?

 

[Rick Otto]

For some reason, I pretty sure the verbatim definition of the praxis/doctrine/ideology of sola scriptura was written by you and I would just like to confirm by some other authority than the good sola scripturists on CF.

Back to the topic, I've yet to see anyone agree with the OP that all protestants hate Mary, however I have seen protestants openly admitting they hate calling Mary their mother. I know not all protestants feel this way, but that's the hallmark of the sola scripturist communities.

I think the OP has a point, and as such are reposting his first and last comments.



It seems like a fair question given the response on this thread.

Fair is fair.
The point the OP makes is that he hates the general lack of what he considers due Marion devotion among his protestant points of social contact.
It's an outrage I would like to apologise for on behalf of my protestant brothers in Christ. We sincerely hope resolution to this anxiety can be found.
Perhaps we can start a tradition of acknowledging Mary when greeting Catholics.

Tad,... I'm really enjoying your mood. It sounds like things are going well. I know you are a socially active guy with your church, family and friends. I think that is great. But I wonder how much quality time you have spent with the other side of Marian devotion? Not to condemn it per se, simply because of some exceptional incidents, but consider how it fits in to institutional practicalities.
Have you heard or read anecdotal testimony or even Garry Will's comments regarding abusive Marian devotion behaviour?
I can quote some of it for you if you aren't site search enabled.

 

[Rick Otto]

...no one considers their own mothers a bit player in their own lives

Could be a reason for being reserved about whom we call mother."