OSAS- The error that births error

[gideons300]

Before I get into this, I want to state something clearly. To all who love the Lord, who long to please Him, what I share may seem like I am robbing you of your security in Christ. Let me make one thing perfectly clear. If you are determined to make Heaven your home because Jesus is there, there indeed is a way to be assured, absolutely positively guaranteed, that on that day you will hear those seven glorious words:

"Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

All that is to be shared here may seem the opposite, and that my goal is to frighten you, to "abuse" you, to make you insecure. It is not. It is to destroy any false foundations, ones that look good when times are good, but will fail us when the rubber meets the road.

If you will hang in there with me, you will know more security than you thought possible, for the one variable, the weak link, our flesh itself, can be removed from the equation. I have made this a fellowship thread open to any that agree with its premise OR any who simply do not know. Questions may be asked and I or others are free to try to answer them, but if you are of the OSAS belief, I simply do not want to make this a back and forth scriptural wrestling match, leaving true seekers confused and more discouraged than ever. Thanks all in advance for abiding by this request.

But first, we have some false beliefs to deal with. And one that I see as a huge error that satan has succeeded in feeding many is the teaching of Once saved, Always Saved. This belief basically says that once you are saved, nothing can make you unsaved. No sin, no lack of repentance, no living like the lost, no turning our backs on the Lord from the day we got saved until we meet Him on judgment day can affect our eternal salvation. It sounds good, sounds wonderful in fact, but..... is it true?

We all have opinions on this most controversial subject, and most of them are based upon what we have been taught in the pulpit. But to find truth, we cannot look to man's opinion, but to the Word of God He has left us so that we can discern truth and we can discern error. Anything else can lead us into error.

So what does the Bible say about eternal salvation? Well, let's start there:

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him"

Hebrews 5:9

Yes, there is a place where we can be assured that we are and will remain eternally saved. Just obey Him. LOL, I can hear the groans and despair now. "Ohhhhh, is that all?" But the obedience He longs for from us is for us to believe on Him, for without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

If we believe and continue to believe, we are assured of Heaven, Period. As a pastor I had once said. "I believe in the security of a believer. Just stay a believer!" That is why we have been urged by Paul "As you have received Him (by faith alone) so walk ye in Him." (by faith as well).

So does that mean all is good again, that there is no danger now? After all, doesn't the Bible say:

"I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 8:31-39

Glory to God! That is His love for us. And I can understand why, based on this one verse, why the OSAS doctrine has taken hold. But we must notice one thing in this verse that is missing. Just one, but it is a biggie. What is it?

US.

We ourselves can separate ourselves from the love God. Remember, eternal salvation to all them that obey Him. Now, many are convinced that they love the Lord. They believe in Jesus as the atonement for their sins, a perfect sacrifice, and He was. By the shedding of His blood, he makes a way so that even if we sin, we can listen to the Spirit within us chastening us, correcting us, guiding us back onto the pathway of obedience, and be restored.

It sounds like I am arguing FOR the OSAS doctrine, but bear with me. If there is no danger from sin, because we can repent and turn back, how can we fail? Well, what does the word tell us?

"Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. "

Hebrews 5:12-13

Ahh, there is the problem with sin. Can we be forgiven? Absolutely, if we hate it, acknowledge it and turn from it back to Christ. But listen. If we continue to sin, especially the same sin again and again, and I have generally found this is exactly the case with believers, there is danger here, and danger we have not been taught even exists. The danger of having our once hard hearts, stony hearts, softened by the forgiveness of Christ, re-hardened by sin.

Well, can we not continue to repent, confess and receive forgiveness again and again? Absolutely, if we mean it. But there is the issue. Our continued falling to the same sin over and over should awaken us to our need to go deeper into God. Should. But in the modern gospel we have been taught, we have instead turned to the OSAS gospel, and our continued sinning, once meant to driver us deeper to find the free indeed Jesus spoke of, instead assures us of our forgiveness, even as our repentance for our sins becomes shallower and shallower, a ritual, with no heart in it. And that is the danger, for it is with our heart that we believe. Sin can so harden the heart that we can actually come to believe that we can remain in sin and remain in God's covering, and accept the lie the we can actually serve two masters, and we cannot.

I beg you to understand, we can still go to church, shed tears in worship, serve in various ways, and even acknowledge Him with our mouths, but our hearts can indeed stop believing on Him, and that is what must be solved. Thank God there is a solution.

So we see that the issue that must be fixed in order to be assured of our salvation is this.... something has to be done for US... to US... to make US a non-threat, so that sin does not pull us back into unbelief. We will deal with that in another post.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

My opinion was expressed here
http://www.christianforums.com/t7866060-3/#post67040292
that I felt one must be actually saved before assuming that as fact
salvation is a gift ... non refundable ... rewards are what differ

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The idea of once saved always saved seems like a bandage solution for poor salvation teachings that involve intellectual assent . so in agreeing that OSAS is wrong . i mean the premise of the argument is wrong . one who is saved is based on the power of God, of which such life cannot die .. but some people may have been taught that you say some magic words and you're saved . you do this and you're saved . and it becomes about being saved .. instead about being born again and living and maturing in the new life .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think OSAS does birth many errors . perhaps not the ones that you may think .. but the most profound one it births is keep people as spiritual infants .. and only expecting people to never mature so as to not undermine pastoral authority when being saved becomes a widespread intellectualism .
.
but i had this thought recently . it was said in the letters that Apostles were first, then prophets, then pastors .. that pastors are commonly presented to be the top of the maturity scale in mainline churches .. it just shows how much more we need to grow as a body before we can expect to be one as a body .

 

[gideons300]

The idea of once saved always saved seems like a bandage solution for poor salvation teachings that involve intellectual assent . so in agreeing that OSAS is wrong . i mean the premise of the argument is wrong . one who is saved is based on the power of God, of which such life cannot die .. but some people may have been taught that you say some magic words and you're saved . you do this and you're saved . and it becomes about being saved .. instead about being born again and living and maturing in the new life .

In the eternal view of things, this is true, for in the end, all who ended up saved were the elect. If it were possible, even the elect could be lost.... if it were possible. I do not believe it is.

But here is the deal. We do not yet know we are the elect, do we? We all feel we are saved. Those on the last day who were shocked at Jesus words of rebuff actually thought they were saved, yet they were not. Those who had the good seed land on us and sprout and begin to grow all feel that of course, we are saved. But there were many instances where the shallowness of the growth into Christ, or the cares of this life choked out the life of that plant, and in the end, it became a branch separated from the vine, dead and lifeless.

Once we have begin walking with the Lord, we are all called to enter a process of working out God's salvation that was planted inwardly, of making our calling and election sure. We do not now work for it. We simply continue to yield and cooperate...and yes, obey, the call of the Spirit of God He has given us. If we do so, we are simply bearing the fruit that follows a believer. They continue to believe... and actively follow God.

We are urged to not assure ourselves, based on our feelings or on whether or not we pray or go to church or sing songs of worship. Who is the elect? He that endures to the end.

So eternally speaking, what you say is true and yes, from God's point of view, there is truth to eternal salvation. But I am talking a different problem here, a teaching that says if we pray this prayer and believe on Christ one time, in the beginning, then nothing we can do afterwards can affect that. This teaching says that it does not matter if we sin, how much we sin, or whether we even sin quite willfully. It teaches that we are safe even if we refuse to follow Him, or if we dig our heels in in avoiding repentance, or if we fail to heed the chastenings of God when they come. It says we are safe no matter what. It is wrong.

It is unscriptural and dangerous and sadly leads to a contentment without godliness being imparted in our character. Instead of a life of devotion to the master, walking continually in faith, growing in faith, fighting the good fight of faith, getting established in the faith, many have been led into error things that all that I have just listed is works....law...which is the furthest thing from the truth.

As Paul said in Romans 11, we are to behold both the goodness and severity of God. On them which fell, severity, but towards us goodness.... IF.... a condition... IF we continue in His goodness. Otherwise we too can be cut off.

I appreciate you sharing, but what I am talking about is how one KNOWS they are saved. It is and always will be based on the state of our heart. Simply to wrap oneself in scripture verses so that we assure ourselves, without examining ourselves whether we "be in the faith" in the way Scriptures mean it, is the great danger.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[guest66503]

Aren't fellowship threads only for fellowship and not disagreeing?

 

[gideons300]

Aren't fellowship threads only for fellowship and not disagreeing?

This is true, but so far, I think Michael is more disagreeing on why it is dangerous, but not with the doctrine as we understand it. I do want to encourage any who are neutral on this subject and have genuine questions or who agree that OSAS is not the gospel because of the many scriptures that warn us of danger if we do not continue in His goodness to feel free to make comments.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[gideons300]

I think it wise to listen to the wisdom of the Word in cases like these. Jesus said we will know His followers by their fruits. Not by their understanding, nor by their faith. But praise God, if it is true faith, faith of someone genuinely saved, it will cause us to bear good fruits and an obedient life filled with Christ, amen?

So with that in mind, I wanted to assess why I think the OSAS doctrine is in error and so dangerously so. One of my huge objections, besides its need to literally ignore multitudes of scriptures, is what ends up being defined as grace.

One would reason that if the proposed level of grace actually existed, whereby we could go to any extreme possible and still find Heaven, no matter what, that our thankfulness, gratitude and devotion would be at an all time high. It's fruit would be on an entirely other level, where one's devotion is not seen as lukewarm in any way but fervent with love and heavenly mindedness.

It would be reasonable to assume that those who truly believed grace is so deep that it can even be trampled on and still not fail the person, that setting affections on things above, not of the earth would be so apparent that others would be asking why they are different? Would they not be so focused on the prize that they cast aside willingly, even joyfully, every sin and even every weight that hinders their honoring...responding to such an amazing grace? Would this not to be expected if God was stamping this belief system as truth?

You would think that these would be the ones leading the way in soul winning, in hungering for revival to see God's glory the way they have, for calling others to experience the glorious closeness they themselves possess from such a deep understanding of grace.

And there lies the rub. What should be the result is not at all. In truth, the opposite is often true. Sin, obedience, repentance, seeking the Lord, revival, these all are now cast in a negative light, and the accusation is that if you heed these, you will sin more, obey less, and never settle down in a comfortable lifestyle with God which is our "rest." Obedience can only be seen as the law, and since we are freed from the law, we are, in truth, freed from the call to obedience. And once their heart goes there, the fruit, or lack thereof follows. Self is never dealt with, but welcomed into grace. No cost is counted, for all has been paid! No need for winning souls, for we have the higher revelation and faith that God's will will be done. The reverse logic is downright scary where we end up fighting the very one who bought us.

And all this is courteous of the OSAS doctrine. Without our yielding ourselves to God so that He can transform us, without listening when the Spirit of God tries to chasten us, the danger is, as I stated already, a heart that gets harder and harder for God to reach. It is a danger zone that I pray we all avoid.

I will not beat this thing to death, but there is without a doubt a huge connection between the proponents of OSAS and those who end up believing in "excess" grace that has no similarities with the grace presented in the Bible. Once one accepts OSAS, it is but a hop, skip and a jump to slowing down on repenting, seeking God's face less and resisting the devil les and less when he comes tempting.

The new testament is awash with warning after warning to us as believers to no give any advantage to satan, and about the dangers of going backwards, of losing what we think is ours. Here is another verse to mull over. They are the words of Paul again.

"I keep my body under, lest, after preaching to others, I myself might become a castaway."

Some will argue that we do not know that if someone is a castaway, it means they actually lose their salvation. It is a stretch for me to accept that point of view but let's say for as moment it could be. COULD be. If someone is willing to gamble their eternal soul on an "I don't think...", no matter WHAT it is, that man is a gambler and the "all in" is himself.

Many a truly saved and good hearted child of God has fallen prey to such a take on our salvation. But there is danger here, and it is to become blinded to God's chastening, and thus, an open target for the enemy. I am in no way belittling any who adhere to such a belief, but error is still error and danger calls for a loving response, warning and teaching if needed, to help expose the danger of such a belief. To say "each to his own" is not love but lack of passion. Love should constrain us to intervene for the truth really is, we are our brother's keeper.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Biblicist]

Gideon, do you mean to say that a tongues speaking Born Again Christian cannot swap his wife for a newer and more efficient model or for that matter visit the local 'ladies' dive for a bit of after hours 'fellowship'? After all, there are lots of OSAS 'church-goers' who do these sorts of things along with a host of other carnal activities!

You know what, this thread could be deemed as being prophetic as I suspect that you are saying that if we do these sort of things that we could be placing our salvation at serious risk - as we undoubtedly very well would be if we continued on with such things!

 

[Norah63]

Then dont touch God's anointed is added if we dare say the preacher shouldnt change wives.

 

[gideons300]

Gideon, do you mean to say that a tongues speaking Born Again Christian cannot swap his wife for a newer and more efficient model or for that matter visit the local 'ladies' dive for a bit of after hours 'fellowship'? After all, there are lots of OSAS 'church-goers' who do these sorts of things along with a host of other carnal activities!

You know what, this thread could be deemed as being prophetic as I suspect that you are saying that if we do these sort of things that we could be placing our salvation at serious risk - as we undoubtedly very well would be if we continued on with such things!

Hi Bib, thank you for sharing. It leads me to clarify something. Let me make sure all understand. If any think I am saying anyone who believes in OSAS is going to miss Heaven, they are misunderstanding my message.

It is the condition of our hearts and how they are responding to Jesus that will always be the determiner of our eternal standing with God. Do we love Him? Do we long to obey Him, and glorify Him with our lives? Do we truly believe He died to forgive us?

Sounds easy, right? But I promise you this. In my own walk, when inappropriate content and masturbation were daily occurrences, followed by confession and repentance, God can still forgive us each time, yes, 7 times 70 if needs be, but it gets harder and harder for our own hearts to truly believe He can forgive like that, especially when we are internally aware that our repentance is waning in seriousness. That is the effect of continuing in sin upon our hearts. it ever so slowly changes heart faith into head acknowledgement, and the joy or our salvation begins to dry up.

We as men fall into a trap of judging eternal things from outer appearances. It is a mistake. God looks directly into the thoughts and intents of the heart. One can be taught the OSAS doctrine and waltz into Heaven if they have continued responding to the chastenings of God, continued to hunger and thirst after Him... and his righteousness. This is not doing works, or earning salvation, but a simple heart response that is the true sign of all who believe.

And just as surely, one can believe fully in conditional salvation, where all the above are still needed and get to the point where their repentance is so shallow that one's prayer for forgiveness is just a dead ritual, and means nothing. Again, the key in both situations is the same.... where are the eyes of our hearts looking?

Is there danger in both belief systems? Absolutely. We have a roaring lion seeking whom he may next devour to contend with. We are told to not be ignorant of his devices for a reason. You see, the weak link in both cases is us.
Self. The old nature, the natural us. In both cases, we can have an amazing salvation experience and end up losing it. The danger of the OSAS doctrine is that the chastenings of God can be drown out by believing that since we are already eternally perfect, any chastening must be a lie to try to get us to believe we are in danger, so the Holy Spirit is simply put on ignore.

If the danger is us, and repeated confession and repentance more often than not moves us closer to ritualized repentance, meaningless confession for it is done with a cold heart, how can we ever feel safe? How can we know Heaven will be ours?

It is found in our putting on the new man and believing in the God who promises to keep us from falling. Sin will cool our hearts. We need an answer to sin in our lives, the power of it, and not just the penalty for it. God has the answer for us, but there is one problem. To access it, we must admit we need it, and to admit we need it, we must first admit what we have at present is insufficient for the task.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Alithis]

sniped for length"

Gideon

Hey there Gid' .. you know (as does any one here who has read often enough) that our stories are very similar in what we were entrapped in and what God has delivered us from .and the intensity of gratitude that pours from our hearts as a result of God has done for us . to go from repetitive daily bondage and self loathing ..to walking free and no longer having to try hard to not sin but rather, literally, dancing through each day with a clear conscience, is something of joy that is inexpressible as far as intellectually explaining it to another ..

but for each of us the Revelation of what we personally needed to comprehend in regard to the power of the cross at work in us ..differed .. so while i fully know and accept your sharing of the need to "rekon ourselves as dead and put on the new man ", in my spirit it does not have the same depth of meaning as it does to you ..

and while i share ..t"o walk in the Spirit and to LISTEN to what god tells you to do and do it and he will lead us to greener pastures where we simply don't do that sin any more .. " i know you fully know and accept that also . but do not comprehend it with the same spiritual revelation as was revealed to me personally ..

we can present the word of God on these matters .. and DO .
but we cannot impute our personally revelation of these maters to another .that is the work of the Holy Spirit .i cannot give what happened to me as a formula that will automatically work for another ..
they will see it with their eyes but not grasp it with their hearts seeing they will not understand .. not until their own heart is so sickened that it cries out not from the intellect but from the depth of their being the depth of their spirit .. and God ,who is spirit ..will hear the contrite "heart" and quickly draw near to help in their true distress.

we must remember that the grace of God led us to desperation in our journey to be free from that which caused us such horror of self loathing and the seed of faith he planted in us sprang forth when he watered it with His holy Spirit .

it was by the hearing of the word of God that faith came to us .. not by the imposing of another's experience upon us .

So we continue to present the whole Gospel and if some say -'yes but yes but ..- to the the straight forward word of god .. they do so because in their heart they are saying "yes but "..to God . seeking to justify the true state of the heart rather then humble themselves and say ..lord you are right i am wrong .. change me .

He loves them he will take to them to task over this in his own way and always for thier best possible outcome (unless they refuse to hear him .)

also i of the opinion that in some cases .people have believed in the lord Jesus for salvation because the concept of heaven is nice and they want that nice stuff .. but they have not yet known Godly sorrow for sin ..which works repentance .i cannot recall how many times i have wept in uncontrollable sobs that rent my heart for the pain i had caused my lord Jesus and others due to my own sin ...
many professing believers don't feel the slightest regret ..they say "sorry forgive me" ..because they want heaven.. not because they are actually sorry .. a bit like a mean brother saying sorry for hitting his sister ..while poking his tongue at her behind mothers back .. the sincerity of the sorrow is feigned .

but so it was with me also for many a time gone by ..
But God searches out the heart ... not the appearance ..
God is able

 

[Biblicist]

Hi Bib, thank you for sharing. It leads me to clarify something. Let me make sure all understand. If any think I am saying anyone who believes in OSAS is going to miss Heaven, they are misunderstanding my message. . .

I agree that a belief in OSAS will certainly not keep anyone from entering into the Kingdom of God but merely that this mindset seems to have become a licence for both inappropriate and even immoral behaviour where some think that there security is so safe that they can get away with almost anything.

 

[Alithis]

on the topic of osas ... the doctrine inores ongoing relationship ..walkin with the lord .. talking with the lord ..listening .. doing . loveing laughing with the lord ongoing reltionship ongoing and eternal life .. the osas genre has a mindset of .."its done, i can do as i please unto my will now ..
it misses the mark .. thats imo.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I agree that a belief in OSAS will certainly not keep anyone from entering into the Kingdom of God but merely that this mindset seems to have become a licence for both inappropriate and even immoral behaviour where some think that there security is so safe that they can get away with almost anything.

And what if it is but the end result of loss of conscience is a deminished place in eternity. That is the problem of scriptures tipped in one direction and not including other scripture.

 

[Biblicist]

on the topic of osas ... the doctrine inores ongoing relationship ..walkin with the lord .. talking with the lord ..listening .. doing . loveing laughing with the lord ongoing reltionship ongoing and eternal life .. the osas genre has a mindset of .."its done, i can do as i please unto my will now ..
it misses the mark .. thats imo.

When it comes to having an ongoing and growing relationship with the Lord, where we not only talk to the Lord but where we train ourselves to listen to him, these things tend to be frequently missing within the more austere forms of Calvinism where OSAS has its roots. If someone fails to understand how we are to grow in the Lord through an ongoing and growing relationship where theological understanding is only one part and not the whole part of the Christian walk, then OSAS can help to offset the frequent deep down insecurity that many of these people secretly harbour.

 

[Biblicist]

And what if it is but the end result of loss of conscience is a deminished place in eternity. That is the problem of scriptures tipped in one direction and not including other scripture.

If we were to take a dozen day old Christians who had no prior exposure to God's Word, where we handed them the New Testament and later asked, "Does the Scriptures say that it is possible for a Christian to forfeit their Salvation", then I would expect that most if not all would say that this can occur.

As for the Scriptures supposedly providing two different views, if we understand that our salvation is eternally secure where we can only forfeit our salvation due to our own choice or where our lives eventually become so sin ridden then it all makes sense.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If we were to take a dozen day old Christians who had no prior exposure to God's Word, where we handed them the New Testament and later asked, "Does the Scriptures say that it is possible for a Christian to forfeit their Salvation", then I would expect that most if not all would say that this can occur.

As for the Scriptures supposedly providing two different views, if we understand that our salvation is eternally secure where we can only forfeit our salvation due to our own choice or where our lives eventually become so sin ridden then it all makes sense.

I`m not at all sure of what you are saying but since it is addressed to me I can only answer that I see OSAS different than the doctrine of Calvanism because that gives it a meaning all it`s own, which is why I said looking at scripture without weighing other scripture is wrong. But I feel it wrong to rob new Christians of the security that belongs to their new found faith. If they choose to use it as licence then God is not only merciful but equally He is just.

 

[Messy]

When I was just saved I heard that you had to say the sinner's prayer every time after you had sinned. Now I had problems with getting angry because I had borderline, so every week I did that prayer and they didn't have deliverance or help or anything, so when I heard OSAS I was really happy and finally secure and it did make things a lot better when you don't have to doubt your salvation all the time and get an outburst because God rejects you. It was never said though that if you were f.i. living together without being married or just wanted to stay in sin that that also counted. Now I see OSAS is wrong, but I'm very glad with that foundation of security, so I don't think it's only bad. What's needed is a way to get people out of this. Also for someone with OCD it's good, I think I had that too.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7866601/#post67050146

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

When I was just saved I heard that you had to say the sinner's prayer every time after you had sinned. Now I had problems with getting angry because I had borderline, so every week I did that prayer and they didn't have deliverance or help or anything, so when I heard OSAS I was really happy and finally secure and it did make things a lot better when you don't have to doubt your salvation all the time and get an outburst because God rejects you. It was never said though that if you were f.i. living together without being married or just wanted to stay in sin that that also counted. Now I see OSAS is wrong, but I'm very glad with that foundation of security, so I don't think it's only bad. What's needed is a way to get people out of this. Also for someone with OCD it's good, I think I had that too.
http://www.christianforums.com/reputation.php?p=67050146

I think saying the òur Father`prayer each day really covers what Jesus taught from being of the family of the Holy God to forgiveness of ourselves and others each day. Kinda like knowing it has been placed with God when things come to mind and it doesn`t need to be a place of dwelling in sin , instead seated with Him while here on earth as He is in heaven. That is reckoning the old nature dead and being alive to Christ that the Lord`s prayer deals with so well.
There is a mod on here that suffers from that also and he`s related some of the things he goes thru. Would be rough