Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Archaeopteryx]

Doing only what your nature dictates is by no means a limitation, it means staying true to who you are.

Omnipotence is apparently his nature, but if he cannot do evil, then in what sense is he omnipotent? He seems to fall short in that regard.

Besides which, is God dictated by his nature? Who or what decides God's nature? God?

Did you even know what "limitation" I am talking about when I say TLK limits God?

All theology, insofar as it makes claims about God's nature, places limits - even yours.

 

[Messy]

You tell me. It's your theology we're discussing after-all.

Lol, I just don't believe that theology. I believe He knew what would happen before He created Adam and Eve, but the rest I can't find in the Bible.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Lol, I just don't believe that theology. I believe He knew what would happen before He created Adam and Eve, but the rest I can't find in the Bible.

If he knew what would happen then didn't he have the power to prevent it from happening the way that it did?

 

[WoundedDeep]

Well, he certainly receives nothing form me, and I give nothing to Him.

Win-win, right?

Yet you dare to judge God as evil and propose that He might want to do something good to benefit from it. Much blasphemy, right?

The undying praise from billions of sycophants? Some folks are into that sort of thing...

Your comparison is so far off I cannot even find the words to describe the absurdity. First, God did not create satan to be evil. Satan became evil by his own choice. Second, God did not put satan in charge of mankind, rather mankind yielded themselves to his evil influence. Third, God rescued humanity by taking the form of flesh and blood Himself and dying for humanity's sins. This is so inherently different from the story of Caesare Borgia, can you not tell the stark differences?

So God is only one thing and is only capable of one thing, and I'm the one limiting Him?

Eh, you were limiting Him by saying He somehow needs to receive benefits in order for Him to do good. He has no such need of receiving benefits.

 

[Messy]

If he knew what would happen then didn't he have the power to prevent it from happening the way that it did?

No, I don't believe so. How? Even if He had thrown satan in a pit people would have sinned eventually and then there was no way to rescue them and they would have become like the devil. Natural death was a protection, so they could be changed again to their first holy nature by His offer.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yet you dare to judge God as evil and propose that He might want to do something good to benefit from it. Much blasphemy, right?

Your comparison is so far off I cannot even find the words to describe the absurdity. First, God did not create satan to be evil. Satan became evil by his own choice. Second, God did not put satan in charge of mankind, rather mankind yielded themselves to his evil influence. Third, God rescued humanity by taking the form of flesh and blood Himself and dying for humanity's sins. This is so inherently different from the story of Caesare Borgia, can you not tell the stark differences?

God knew in advance exactly how the situation would unfold. He was not powerless and limited to patchy psychological guesswork. He knew the motivations of every actor on the stage and their every move, to the smallest detail. From the outset then, he created a situation that he knew would give rise to a fallen world in which Satan would have dominion. Having set up the scene, he enters at the opportune moment to play the role of saviour and demand praise for slaying the dragon he unleashed.

 

[Messy]

God knew in advance exactly how the situation would unfold. He was not powerless and limited to patchy psychological guesswork. He knew the motivations of every actor on the stage and their every move, to the smallest detail. From the outset then, he created a situation that he knew would give rise to a fallen world in which Satan would have dominion. Having set up the scene, he enters at the opportune moment to play the role of saviour and demand praise for slaying the dragon he unleashed.

That sounds like a god who's totally bored and has nothing useful to do.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That sounds like a god who's totally bored and has nothing useful to do.

I think it sounds narcissistic. It's engineering a situation in which one can make one's self appear good so as to attract the admiration of others.

 

[Messy]

I think it sounds narcissistic. It's engineering a situation in which one can make one's self appear good so as to attract the admiration of others.

Yes, but the devil is narcissistic and I believe he wants to make us think God is like him.
If He wanted everyone to worship Him and was able to prevent things from happening He could have just created the angels that didn't sin, because they praise Him all the time.

 

[mkrist]

I understand where you're coming from. I've been a Christian for most of my life and I've always tried to suppress my doubts and questions about God and what the Bible says by believing I just don't understand His ways - after all, He's God and how can I possibly fathom what He does or why. I'm 51 years old and I see people I care about suffering illness and struggling with depression, anxiety, and stress. I hear the news and see what's going on in the world - people suffering at the hands of ISIS. Children being taken by this group as slaves or repeatedly raped by 50 year old men. I wonder, where is God in their suffering? I understand that there's evil in this world and people make choices to do good or evil, but my pastor says that God allows evil at times to fulfill His purposes and He gives Satan a certain amount of power and leeway to commit his evil acts. I can't comprehend this. How do I trust Him when He allows innocent children to suffer with cancer or seems absent when a friend is dying and wonders where God is in his suffering. I know we all will die, but where is God when all someone wants is a sense of His presence? My friend was dying from melanoma - couldn't bear having his daugther hug him for fear his bones would break(the cancer had metastisized to his bones in the final months). I asked him if he was afraid to die. He said he accepted the fact that God wasn't going to heal him, and he was fine with that. What he couldn't understand was why God was allowing him to suffer so much pain and he felt somewhat abandoned. Why, in our darkest hour, does God withdraw? I've heard people say, it's because He's testing our faith - do we really believe? How would it be if my child came to me for comfort when they're sick - just needed me to hold them and give my support - and I said, "No, I'm too busy. Believe I love you, but you have to go through this on your own." I also think of what ISIS and Hitler have done - the absolute evil. God promises in His word to protect those who believe in Him, yet so many have been tortured at the hands of evil people. Is what ISIS or Hitler have done any different from what God called for in the Old Testament? He commanded His people to go into areas and anniliate groups of people - even women and children. I understand Pharoah didn't listen and wouldn't let the Israelites go, but was it just to kill innocent children - how did their mothers feel? And all the soldiers that were following Pharoah's orders and then drowned in the Red Sea? I'm sorry to keep rambling on. I'm not trying to discredit God. I'm just very upset. I don't want to walk away from Him. I don't want to live my life without Him and I definitely don't want to die without Him. I just don't know what to do. I've prayed countless times that He would give me the faith to believe and trust Him. I've prayed for deliverance from the doubts and from the depression I've felt throughout my life. I've asked Him to change my heart and help me to see as He does. Nothing changes. I'm at the point where I just don't know anymore. The Bible says you can't believe apart from God giving you the faith, but if you don't believe it's your fault and you go to hell. It also says God predestines who will believe and hardens the hearts of some. He has mercy on some and not on others. How is that just? Yet we're not supposed to question. I've read Job many times and always wondered why God allowed Satan to torture this man that God knew was faithful and loved Him. What did He have to prove to Satan at the expense of Job? I've read Job's faith grew through this trial, but he lost his family. And I think the greatest struggle and torture for Job was feeling God had abandoned him. In his greatest time of need, God was silent. I'm getting older. I know illness and death are coming closer. How do I trust my God when I see apparent evidence of Him abandoning people at their deepest need? It scares me. And I don't think anyone but God has the answer - and He's not letting me know what that answer is, or even giving me the peace to accept what I don't understand. What do I do?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, but the devil is narcissistic and I believe he wants to make us think God is like him.
If He wanted everyone to worship Him and was able to prevent things from happening He could have just created the angels that didn't sin, because they praise Him all the time.

Indeed he could have, so why didn't he? For each individual that he created, he knew in advance whether they would worship him and where they would ultimately end up (heaven or hell). It seems to me that this is no different to creating those individuals for whatever fate he knows they will face - creating some for heaven and some for hell.

 

[Messy]

I understand where you're coming from. I've been a Christian for most of my life and I've always tried to suppress my doubts and questions about God and what the Bible says by believing I just don't understand His ways - after all, He's God and how can I possibly fathom what He does or why. I'm 51 years old and I see people I care about suffering illness and struggling with depression, anxiety, and stress. I hear the news and see what's going on in the world - people suffering at the hands of ISIS. Children being taken by this group as slaves or repeatedly raped by 50 year old men. I wonder, where is God in their suffering? I understand that there's evil in this world and people make choices to do good or evil, but my pastor says that God allows evil at times to fulfill His purposes and He gives Satan a certain amount of power and leeway to commit his evil acts. I can't comprehend this. How do I trust Him when He allows innocent children to suffer with cancer or seems absent when a friend is dying and wonders where God is in his suffering. I know we all will die, but where is God when all someone wants is a sense of His presence? My friend was dying from melanoma - couldn't bear having his daugther hug him for fear his bones would break(the cancer had metastisized to his bones in the final months). I asked him if he was afraid to die. He said he accepted the fact that God wasn't going to heal him, and he was fine with that. What he couldn't understand was why God was allowing him to suffer so much pain and he felt somewhat abandoned. Why, in our darkest hour, does God withdraw? I've heard people say, it's because He's testing our faith - do we really believe? How would it be if my child came to me for comfort when they're sick - just needed me to hold them and give my support - and I said, "No, I'm too busy. Believe I love you, but you have to go through this on your own." I also think of what ISIS and Hitler have done - the absolute evil. God promises in His word to protect those who believe in Him, yet so many have been tortured at the hands of evil people. Is what ISIS or Hitler have done any different from what God called for in the Old Testament? He commanded His people to go into areas and anniliate groups of people - even women and children. I understand Pharoah didn't listen and wouldn't let the Israelites go, but was it just to kill innocent children - how did their mothers feel? And all the soldiers that were following Pharoah's orders and then drowned in the Red Sea? I'm sorry to keep rambling on. I'm not trying to discredit God. I'm just very upset. I don't want to walk away from Him. I don't want to live my life without Him and I definitely don't want to die without Him. I just don't know what to do. I've prayed countless times that He would give me the faith to believe and trust Him. I've prayed for deliverance from the doubts and from the depression I've felt throughout my life. I've asked Him to change my heart and help me to see as He does. Nothing changes. I'm at the point where I just don't know anymore. The Bible says you can't believe apart from God giving you the faith, but if you don't believe it's your fault and you go to hell. It also says God predestines who will believe and hardens the hearts of some. He has mercy on some and not on others. How is that just? Yet we're not supposed to question. I've read Job many times and always wondered why God allowed Satan to torture this man that God knew was faithful and loved Him. What did He have to prove to Satan at the expense of Job? I've read Job's faith grew through this trial, but he lost his family. And I think the greatest struggle and torture for Job was feeling God had abandoned him. In his greatest time of need, God was silent. I'm getting older. I know illness and death are coming closer. How do I trust my God when I see apparent evidence of Him abandoning people at their deepest need? It scares me. And I don't think anyone but God has the answer - and He's not letting me know what that answer is, or even giving me the peace to accept what I don't understand. What do I do?

I fell from my faith a few years back. My ex took the kids, God didn't do anything, I prayed for months, he didn't do anything. I put on the God's song from Randy Newman (I take from you your children and you say: how blessed are we) and didn't even believe He existed anymore, but I have never had this teaching in church that God just does what He wants and can do things, but He is unwilling and that sickness comes from Him. Jesus healed the people that were oppressed by the devil and asked the church to do the same in His Name, but that isn't preached. It's preached in some churches that God picks and choose: I like you, I predestine you, you can go to heaven and I don't like you, I predestine you to go to hell. This is false teaching, no wonder people abandon the faith. The only reason I came back was because I knew that He is good and if something happens it's not because He wants it or is unwilling to do something about it, He just can't. I saw all the evil in the world and thought: there is evidence enough for a devil, if he exists God must exist too and I invited Him back in my heart.
He's there but we can't see it sometimes.

 

[WoundedDeep]

God knew in advance exactly how the situation would unfold. He was not powerless and limited to patchy psychological guesswork. He knew the motivations of every actor on the stage and their every move, to the smallest detail. From the outset then, he created a situation that he knew would give rise to a fallen world in which Satan would have dominion. Having set up the scene, he enters at the opportune moment to play the role of saviour and demand praise for slaying the dragon he unleashed.

As much as you attempt to portray God's design in a negative light, your description is far from the truth. The fact that God only gives but never receives shows that He is not narcissistic. Praise is not something God solicits or demands like you falsely claim, but rather what His creatures willingly do after coming into full knowledge of His ways and nature. He also did not unleash satan as a dragon, but rather to be consistent towards all of His creation, He has to give satan just as much free will as He gives others, even if satan chooses to abuse it.

Neither yours nor TLK's description gives a fair and unbiased view of what God intends. You are merely using your own biased viewpoint and idea of God to skew the purpose of God.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

As much as you attempt to portray God's design in a negative light, your description is far from the truth. The fact that God only gives but never receives shows that He is not narcissistic. Praise is not something God solicits or demands like you falsely claim, but rather what His creatures willingly do after coming into full knowledge of His ways and nature.

Really? He doesn't demand worship? So there is no punishment (e.g., hell) for not worshipping him?

He also did not unleash satan as a dragon, but rather to be consistent towards all of His creation, He has to give satan just as much free will as He gives others, even if satan chooses to abuse it.

He knew exactly how Satan would behave given the freedom to do so.

Neither yours nor TLK's description gives a fair and unbiased view of what God intends. You are merely using your own biased viewpoint and idea of God to skew the purpose of God.

And your view is unbiased?

 

[WoundedDeep]

I understand where you're coming from. I've been a Christian for most of my life and I've always tried to suppress my doubts and questions about God and what the Bible says by believing I just don't understand His ways - after all, He's God and how can I possibly fathom what He does or why. I'm 51 years old and I see people I care about suffering illness and struggling with depression, anxiety, and stress. I hear the news and see what's going on in the world - people suffering at the hands of ISIS. Children being taken by this group as slaves or repeatedly raped by 50 year old men. I wonder, where is God in their suffering? I understand that there's evil in this world and people make choices to do good or evil, but my pastor says that God allows evil at times to fulfill His purposes and He gives Satan a certain amount of power and leeway to commit his evil acts. I can't comprehend this. How do I trust Him when He allows innocent children to suffer with cancer or seems absent when a friend is dying and wonders where God is in his suffering. I know we all will die, but where is God when all someone wants is a sense of His presence? My friend was dying from melanoma - couldn't bear having his daugther hug him for fear his bones would break(the cancer had metastisized to his bones in the final months). I asked him if he was afraid to die. He said he accepted the fact that God wasn't going to heal him, and he was fine with that. What he couldn't understand was why God was allowing him to suffer so much pain and he felt somewhat abandoned. Why, in our darkest hour, does God withdraw? I've heard people say, it's because He's testing our faith - do we really believe? How would it be if my child came to me for comfort when they're sick - just needed me to hold them and give my support - and I said, "No, I'm too busy. Believe I love you, but you have to go through this on your own." I also think of what ISIS and Hitler have done - the absolute evil. God promises in His word to protect those who believe in Him, yet so many have been tortured at the hands of evil people. Is what ISIS or Hitler have done any different from what God called for in the Old Testament? He commanded His people to go into areas and anniliate groups of people - even women and children. I understand Pharoah didn't listen and wouldn't let the Israelites go, but was it just to kill innocent children - how did their mothers feel? And all the soldiers that were following Pharoah's orders and then drowned in the Red Sea? I'm sorry to keep rambling on. I'm not trying to discredit God. I'm just very upset. I don't want to walk away from Him. I don't want to live my life without Him and I definitely don't want to die without Him. I just don't know what to do. I've prayed countless times that He would give me the faith to believe and trust Him. I've prayed for deliverance from the doubts and from the depression I've felt throughout my life. I've asked Him to change my heart and help me to see as He does. Nothing changes. I'm at the point where I just don't know anymore. The Bible says you can't believe apart from God giving you the faith, but if you don't believe it's your fault and you go to hell. It also says God predestines who will believe and hardens the hearts of some. He has mercy on some and not on others. How is that just? Yet we're not supposed to question. I've read Job many times and always wondered why God allowed Satan to torture this man that God knew was faithful and loved Him. What did He have to prove to Satan at the expense of Job? I've read Job's faith grew through this trial, but he lost his family. And I think the greatest struggle and torture for Job was feeling God had abandoned him. In his greatest time of need, God was silent. I'm getting older. I know illness and death are coming closer. How do I trust my God when I see apparent evidence of Him abandoning people at their deepest need? It scares me. And I don't think anyone but God has the answer - and He's not letting me know what that answer is, or even giving me the peace to accept what I don't understand. What do I do?

I can fully empathise with your doubts and questions, I myself have been through a long time of struggle of why God allows innocent people to suffer, not only me, but even Job of the Bible like you mentioned here. In terms of age, I am not nearly as wise as you are, but I have gone through depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, emotional/psychological abuse for 10 years. Therefore I know what it means to struggle with these things and living with the effects. Was I angry with God? Oh yes, very, to the point I was about to no longer have faith in God. But I know I cannot deny His existence because I know what He has done for me, but I was on the verge of challenging Him and straying from striving for righteousness to show my frustration. On one hand, I am very grateful that He has delivered me from so many negative things in my life, and even turned my parents around from being totally resistant to Christianity as hardcore atheists to that which accepts God as a truly existing Being. On the other hand, I am angry that He has allowed the effects of these things to remain in my life (mainly the psychological damage from the years of abuse) even after I was so fervent in seeking His will. I mean, I was born in a totally godless family, been through so much chaos and desperation, and God gave me the first glimpse of hope and direction. I held onto Him like dear life and was so adamant in doing His will I was willing to give up my life like other Christian martyrs who were cruelly murdered by their haters, yet God allowed the effects of abuse to linger in my life? I look at Job, and see that he clearly had the same question like you and I have. Why does innocent people suffer? God clearly allows this kind of suffering, as He vindicated Job even though his friends kept saying that sin was the only cause of suffering. What was God's answer to Job? Nothing that directly answered Job's question, but just the knowledge that God is God is good enough for Job.

Therefore I believe God allows suffering to good people not because of sin, but because He wants us to focus on knowing Him and His will. Knowing Him is the most important thing for anyone. If we were all living in luxury and comfort, will we keep God in our thoughts? Probably not, but suffering keeps us aware of how vulnerable we are, it keeps us humble and reliant on God for providence. Moreover, it trains our character and faith. The authenticity of our relationship with anyone (including God) shows only in suffering, because in prosperity, people become proud and superficial. If we truly love God, we will not abandon Him when we suffer (just like Job did not deny God in his suffering). This can be applied even to friendships and kinship, as those who abandon you in your suffering were never your friends or kinsmen. Therefore, true love is also proven in suffering. Does someone truly love God? Put him or her in the sufferings of Job and see how he/she reacts and you will know whether he/she truly love God.

 

[Messy]

Indeed he could have, so why didn't he? For each individual that he created, he knew in advance whether they would worship him and where they would ultimately end up (heaven or hell). It seems to me that this is no different to creating those individuals for whatever fate he knows they will face - creating some for heaven and some for hell.

I don't believe that.

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’

 

[Dave Ellis]

Evil is not satan or moral evil, but a disaster to protect the good. There's another text that He created the destroyer. When you look it's not the same word in Hebrew as used for Satan in Job. If He created actively darkness it would have said: And He said: Let there be darkness.
And that would have made Him evil and impossible to create good loving friendly people.

So in essence you're arguing that god created the good type of evil?

 

[Dave Ellis]

What if I tell you the intention of God in His creation was to let His creation become knowledgeable of good and evil? Then clearly God's design is perfect because He gave us ability to be either good or evil and to be aware of the difference between them.

It is a requirement for perfection in God's design because He wants us to be like Him: Knowing good and evil but choosing good over evil.

I addressed that.

If god intended for mankind to become knowledgeable about good and evil, then his design was indeed perfect.

However, since the knowledge of good and evil lead to the fall of man, then the fall of man must also be an intentional part of god's design.

 

[Dave Ellis]

But if you extend that passage to call God the author of sin, then you ARE twisting the Bible's meaning. Evil when contrasted with a word like "peace" nowhere leads to a conclusion that it means sin.

Who created the rules regarding sin?

 

[Dave Ellis]

God told them right from the beginning that they would die if they sinned, they sinned because of unbelief. If you were a child and an adult told you you would die from doing something, will you not know it is harmful and avoid it? How then can you say you do not know not to choose it when you were told it will cause death?

That doesn't matter, without the knowledge of good and evil, they couldn't have possibly comprehended what god told them.