Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by vinsight4u

John the Baptist was not Elijah.
​

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

.

Can I ask you guys to please make a seperate thread of that quit derailing this thread? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t7768011/
Was John the Baptist Elijah?

"19 This is the testimony given by John when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed and did not deny it, but confessed, “I am not the Messiah.”[g] 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” He answered, “No.”" Jn. 1:19-21 (NRSV)

"13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John came; 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come." Mt. 11:13-14 (NRSV)

" 10 And the disciples asked him, “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 He replied, “Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist." Mt. 17:10-13 (NRSV)

"13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will name him John. 14 You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He must never drink wine or strong drink; even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit. 16 He will turn many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 With the spirit and power of Elijah he will go before him, to turn the hearts of parents to their children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”" Lu. 1:13-17 (NRSV)

"5 Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of parents to their children and the hearts of children to their parents, so that I will not come and strike the land with a curse." Mal. 4:5 (NRSV)

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I believe that John the Baptist was not the prophesied Elijah that was to come. I do think he came in the spirit and power of Elijah (as the angel says in Luke 1) but I believe that Christ's statement in Mt. 17 speaks of another Elijah (Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things). Also John the Baptist's denial in John 1 is quite telling. So I believe the prophecy was partially fulfilled by John, or perhaps that it would have been fulfilled had the Jews accepted Christ as their Messiah. As it is, I do not believe John the Baptist was the prophesied Elijah of Christ and Malachi. I think that one of the two witnesses may be this prophesied Elijah.

Note also Christ's statement in Matthew 11: "If you will accept (or receive) it, this is the Eiljah which was to come." That seems to say that if the Jews accepted Christ as their Messiah, then John the Baptist would have fulfilled the Elijah prophecy. In that case, since the Jews did not accept Christ as their Messiah, then John the Baptist was not the Elijah that was to come. So we look for another.

Discuss.
________

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[eclipsenow]

Look at how John adds in parts as to - another angel.
John is setting them in groups by their actions-no matter
where those actions take place in Revelation.

another angel - flew

So he is not the only one in Revelation that flies.

No idea what you're saying, or why you have to do it in so many little posts.

Rev 1: John was writing to his generation so that they could obey the message.
If most of the message is about something happening 2000 years later, what good is the message? How are they to obey it? Sorry, but please try and explain this simple issue in clear sentences with a subject, and object, and a verb that make sense. Clear writing please, not this abstract fog you post.

 

[Job8]

The following verses show that the evil angels are bound now in some respect.

The evil angels which are presently bound are the ones "who kept not their first estate" (they left heaven, came down to earth, and corrupted mankind before the Flood) (Jude 6). They are confined to Tartarus (called "hell" in 2 Pet 2:4). That is only a small fraction of the total.

And that still leaves a multitude of evil spirits and demons under Satan ("the prince of the power of the air") to freely roam on this earth and deceive the world while the Gospel is being preached (Mt 13:19,25; Eph 6:11,12; 2 Cor 4:3,4).

SO AT PRESENT SATAN IS "THE GOD OF THIS WORLD" (2 Cor 4:4). There is yet future the coming of the Antichrist, when Satan is allowed by God to have complete control of this earth for 3 1/2 years or "forty and two months" (2 Thess 2:1-12; Rev 13:1-18).

That should be sufficient to inform us that the Millennium is yet future, because Satan must be confined to the Bottomless Pit and be bound during the Millennium (Rev 20:1-3).

Why are Christians so confused about these matters when they are plainly revealed in Scripture? That too is Satanic deception.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Job8

If the matter was not so serious, the above comments would be hilarious.
To understand what Satan is bound "in regards to" is to firstly believe that Satan is the Adversary of God and the primary source of evil in the world. So if Satan is bound, it follows that all his evil spirits are also bound, and sin and evil cannot exhibit themselves on this earth. If you believe that it is "stretching it" to attribute evil to Satan (Rev 12:9;13:1-18), then it simply means that you reject the testimony of God and Christ against Satan.
​

Originally Posted by BABerean2

The following verses show that the evil angels are bound now in some respect.
​

The evil angels which are presently bound are the ones "who kept not their first estate" (they left heaven, came down to earth, and corrupted mankind before the Flood) (Jude 6). They are confined to Tartarus (called "hell" in 2 Pet 2:4). That is only a small fraction of the total.

Why are Christians so confused about these matters when they are plainly revealed in Scripture? That too is Satanic deception.

Don't know. Seems pretty clear to me

Acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly was confused,
and most of them did not know why they had come together.

.

 

[Danoh]

The evil angels which are presently bound are the ones "who kept not their first estate" (they left heaven, came down to earth, and corrupted mankind before the Flood) (Jude 6). They are confined to Tartarus (called "hell" in 2 Pet 2:4). That is only a small fraction of the total.

And that still leaves a multitude of evil spirits and demons under Satan ("the prince of the power of the air") to freely roam on this earth and deceive the world while the Gospel is being preached (Mt 13:19,25; Eph 6:11,12; 2 Cor 4:3,4).

SO AT PRESENT SATAN IS "THE GOD OF THIS WORLD" (2 Cor 4:4). There is yet future the coming of the Antichrist, when Satan is allowed by God to have complete control of this earth for 3 1/2 years or "forty and two months" (2 Thess 2:1-12; Rev 13:1-18).

That should be sufficient to inform us that the Millennium is yet future, because Satan must be confined to the Bottomless Pit and be bound during the Millennium (Rev 20:1-3).

Why are Christians so confused about these matters when they are plainly revealed in Scripture? That too is Satanic deception.

"Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew!" - Horshack, "Welcome Back Kotter."

Its very simple, they form notions, build all sorts of ideas on those, and by the time they look up, that is what governs how they approach looking at things and what they perceive they see, including, their notion that others are doing likewise.

Great, succinct, sound post Job8

 

[AlephBet]

The 1000 years mentioned in the Bible seem to be "symbolic" to me and thus i have not delved into it too actively.


Thank you kindly.

Age 1**Adam to Abraham - Age of the Father (2000 years / 2 Days).

On the third day, we get Issac.

Age 2**Issac to Jesus - Age of the Son (2 days). Jesus said that he would raise the temple on the third day. How many have now passed?

Age 3**Jesus to Today (2 Days), or when Jonah cries out from the belly of the fish. Man was created on the sixth day. New Adam is again revealed on the sixth day.

REST - The final day is a day of rest, or Sabbath. 1000 years to raise the temple again on the third day. The NEW Jerusalem comes down from heaven on that day.

Who enters rest? You must be born again.

 

[eclipsenow]

Why are Christians so confused about these matters when they are plainly revealed in Scripture? That too is Satanic deception.[/COLOR]

Well, I'm not bold enough to say you're deceived by Satan, but as I said above, in Rev 1: John was writing to his generation so that they could obey the message.

If most of the message is about something happening 2000 years later, what good is the message to John's readers back then? How are they to obey it?

Also, why do people read the 1000 years literally when most of the time in the bible 1000 is NOT literal!

 

[eclipsenow]

Hi all,
one of the great problems with the 1000 years is it assumes some kind of in-between age where I only see 2 ages. This present evil age, and the age to come! Here are some key verses that describe the 2 ages.

Biblical Texts Which Speak of “This Age”
Matthew 28:20 -Christ will be with us until the end of the age
Luke 18:30 -There are material rewards given to us in this life
Luke 20:34 -The people of this age marry and are given in marriage
Mark 10:30 -The present age is an age of homes, fields, and families
Romans 12:2 -We are not to be conformed to the pattern of this world (age)
I Corinthians 1:20 -Philosophy is the wisdom of this age
I Corinthians 2:6-8 -Wisdom and rulers are of this age
II Corinthians 4:4 -Satan is the god of this age who has blinded the minds of men and women
Galatians 1:4 -The present age is evil
Ephesians 1:21 -Christ reigns in present age
Ephesians 2:2 -The ways of this world (age) are evil
I Timothy 6:17 -Those who are rich in this age, are not to hope in their wealth for the next
Titus 2:12 -We are to live Godly lives in the present age
In every instance the qualities associated with “this age” are *temporal* in nature. They are of time and age and decay. These texts describe the present course of history before the return of Christ and are things which *pass away* at his return.

Biblical Texts Which Speak of the “Age to Come”
Matthew 13:40 - The weeds will be thrown into the fire and the wheat will be saved. The wheat is not saved and then 1000 years later the weeds burned!
Mark 10:30 - Eternal life as a reward
Luke 18:30 - Eternal life as a reward
Luke 20:35 - No marriage or giving in marriage! This has huge problems for some Millennialists who imagine mortals living alongside immortal, resurrected Christians. If there is no marriage, where do the pagan 'nations' us Christians rule over come from after 70 years? Everyone mortal is dead! There is no marriage in the kingdom of heaven!!!
I Corinthians 6:9-10 - Evil doers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Oops! There goes those pagan nations we were meant to rule over!
I Corinthians 15:50 - Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God
Galatians 5:21 -Those who live evil lives will not inherit the kingdom
Ephesians 1:21 -Christ will reign in age to come
Ephesians 5:5 -Immoral people will not inherit kingdom of God
I Thessalonians 2:12 -We are encouraged to live lives worthy of the kingdom
II Thessalonians 1:5 -Faith will count you worthy of the kingdom of God
I Timothy 6:19 -The coming age has life that is truly life
II Timothy 4:18 -The Lord will bring us to kingdom of God
In marked contrast to “this age” the qualities assigned to the age to come are all eternal (or non-temporal) in nature. These references are clearly describing the future eschatological state of believers (and non•believers if you factor in the references to judgment).

The Line of “Demarcation” Between the Two Ages
Matthew 13:39 -The harvest is the end of the age, and the angels are the harvesters
Matthew 13:40 - Godly are saved and the "weeds" will be burned. Not 1000 years later but in that hour!
Matthew 13:49 -The angels will separate the wicked from the righteous.


There is JUST NO ROOM for a third age in between now and heaven! It's ridiculous.

 

[n2thelight]

@ eclipsenow

Actually there are 3 ages mentioned in the word

In 2nd Peter 3:5-13 we see all three of the earth ages mentioned. By having them all three spoken of in order, in the same scripture, it would be impossible for someone to think that we are mistaking a complex combination of different scriptures and arriving at an unsound conclusion about three separate earth ages. The below are all given in order without a break.

2 Pet 3:5-135 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

This was the first earth age. The one God had to destroy because of revolt.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is this present earth age (second) that we live in now.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (KJV)

This is the third age yet to come (commonly referred to as Heaven).

 

[eclipsenow]

@ eclipsenow

Actually there are 3 ages mentioned in the word

In 2nd Peter 3:5-13 we see all three of the earth ages mentioned. By having them all three spoken of in order, in the same scripture, it would be impossible for someone to think that we are mistaking a complex combination of different scriptures and arriving at an unsound conclusion about three separate earth ages. The below are all given in order without a break.

2 Pet 3:5-135 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

This was the first earth age. The one God had to destroy because of revolt.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is this present earth age (second) that we live in now.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (KJV)

This is the third age yet to come (commonly referred to as Heaven).

Irrelevant nitpicking my friend. Once humanity rebelled against God we enter this reality of sin, Satan, and a world against God's people and God winning for Himself a people to live in His Kingdom.

After Jesus death and resurrection we are promised a new heaven and new earth and no more death. Where does 1000 years fit into the judgement mentioned in the gospels? Wheat, then chaff 1000 years later? Show me, because I just can't see it there? There's no 3rd age to come: just one. The ultimate. Heaven and earth united in new creation.

This 'millennium': what are the dating laws between Christians and non-Christians? Christians live forever and yet... non-Christians are still mortal. Hmmm, yeah, right: the immortal living alongside the mortal. It just doesn't work on so many levels! "Sorry son, but you're a mortal and will grow old and die, so no, you cannot marry my daughter. Besides, the 1000 years are nearly up and you're about to go join all the bad guys in a last battle. Sorry mate, but it's just not on, ya dig? See, I'm a bit older than you, being 105 years old before I died and was resurrected back here and now I'm 1100 and in about 5 years the millennium ends... so ... no. You may not marry my daughter."

Um, yeah? Really? Let's see what the bible says in clearer passages that don't confuse Millennialists with apocalyptic symbolism.

Luke 20:35 - No marriage or giving in marriage! This has huge problems for some Millennialists who imagine mortals living alongside immortal, resurrected Christians. If there is no marriage, where do the pagan 'nations' us Christians rule over come from after 70 years? Everyone mortal is dead! There is no marriage in the kingdom of heaven!!!
I Corinthians 6:9-10 - Evil doers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Oops! There goes those pagan nations we were meant to rule over!
I Corinthians 15:50 - Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God
Galatians 5:21 -Those who live evil lives will not inherit the kingdom

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[eclipsenow]

Why do you think we find this pattern in Revelation?

Rev. 8:13 / KJV
"And I beheld, and heard and angel flying through the midst of heaven..."
14:6
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven..."

John saw this action of flying happen first in chapter 8, then again in
chapter 14. He did not see the same angel twice do it.

John builds these type of subjects and their action flows, as to first and
another throughout Revelation. So, what should we know when Rev. 7:1
has this written by John?

7:1
And...I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..."
7:2
"And I saw another angel ascending from the east..."
If this had been the first angel to ascend from the east then John would
have written...

And I saw an angel ascending from the east..."
This angel even shows by his speaking role that he did not come
alone -he states - we.

7:3
"Saying, Hurt not...till we have sealed..."

Learning about what a sealing job is followed by from the events
written in Ezekiel 7 and 9, it is found that the one sealing people
would need to be wearing specific clothes and would return to God
to sum up what he had done as to sealing people = setting a mark
on some for protection.

This is why John heard the numbers that were sealed. John did not
see anyone get sealed, so that means he can't say - the 144,000
group in Rev. 14 is the same bunch of people from Rev. 7's sealing.
But John did see the angels giving their report in Rev. 7 and that is
why he was able to link the two times together. He had seen the
same angels come as ascending from the east, thus he knew it
was them when he saw them stand before God and give the numbers
message.
as to each tribe - how many were sealed

This is why John writes as to - the seven angels-when he first mentions
them in chapter 8. John already knew who they were. They were the seven
angels that stood before God and gave the numbers report and were
given seven trumpets and sounded them.
The great tribulation is all over before chapter 8 ever begins. John
just tells the great tribulation - seven trumpets and more story during
Rev. 8.

It's all theological symbolism that applies to all Christians in all ages, not some sort of timeline of future predictions utterly irrelevant to all Christians in all ages. There's a big difference.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 932:

It's all theological symbolism . . .

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

eclipsenow said in post 932:

It's all theological symbolism that applies to all Christians in all ages, not some sort of timeline . . .

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are a timeline, in the sense of them being chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

eclipsenow said in post 932:

It's all theological symbolism that applies to all Christians in all ages, not some sort of timeline of future predictions . . .

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are future, because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 932:

It's all theological symbolism that applies to all Christians in all ages, not some sort of timeline of future predictions utterly irrelevant to all Christians in all ages.

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks that he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

--

On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[eclipsenow]

C3PO is the antichrist!
C3PO is the antichrist!
Revelation is literal, Jesus has 7 eyes and 7 horns sticking out of his head, and C3PO is the antichrist! Here he is being worshipped by his minions! Unless YOU repent Bible2, you too will be bound in rope and tied to his woody casket carrying his golden highness of evil!
(You have copied and pasted the same junk to me 666 times now. Does that mean you are the antichrist? Basically, I've tried to have a logical, biblical discussions with you in the past, and I gave up. You just make the word 'literal' mean whatever you want it to mean. Good luck with that! Goodbye, and don't forget your medication. Try the red pill for once! )

 

[LastSeven]

Its very simple, they form notions, build all sorts of ideas on those, and by the time they look up, that is what governs how they approach looking at things and what they perceive they see, including, their notion that others are doing likewise.

Yes, we all form notions. Whether we believe Satan is currently bound, or that the millennium is still future. These are all notions upon which further ideas are formed. So as much as we see others doing this we must also guard against doing this ourselves. Every one of us.

A good rule of thumb that I always fall back on is this: Always interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture. And so when you have two seemingly conflicting passages, you have to determine which is more clear and indisputable than the other and build out your understanding from there.

Something that is very clear indeed is that Jesus was given all authority and power before his ascension into heaven.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

When you have all authority and power that means you're the king and you reign, because you can not have all authority and not be king.

What's also clear is that this same authority and power was given to his disciples. Which means his disciples (this includes all Christians) also reign.

Luke 9:1-2
When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Luke 10:19
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Also clear is that prior to Jesus receiving this authority, Satan had it.

Luke 4:5-7
The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

Also, it's clear that scripture never says Christ would reign on earth.

Revelation 20:5
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Also, those who reign with him are priests.

Revelation 20:6
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

And Revelation 5:9-10 makes it clear, that when Jesus was slain we all became priests, and we reign on the earth.

Revelation 5:10
“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.””

So we are priests now, have been given authority and power over evil and reign with Christ now.

We can also clearly see that Jesus will not return to earth until all things are restored to the way they were meant to be, that is a world without sin and without death, which is a result of sin.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything

It's also clear that Jesus' reign ends when death is destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death is destroyed at the great white throne judgment. With the above two verses we can conclude that Jesus stays in heaven until the end of his reign, which happens at the end of sin/death, which happens when God restores everything.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire

Combining the above two verses we can conclude that Jesus' reign ends at the great white throne judgment.

The great white throne judgment signals the end of the old heaven and the old earth.

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

And after the great white throne judgment, the new heaven and earth are revealed

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

One other thing that is very clear is that death is destroyed (swallowed up in victory) at the resurrection, as we can see in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:34
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

This means the resurrection and the great white throne judgment and the end of death (and by extension the end of sin) and the end of Christ's reign all go together.

And, knowing that Jesus now reigns where Satan used to reign and that we are now priests and also reign with him, and that Jesus will not return to earth until after his reign ends, which is when death is defeated at the resurrection, combined with the fact that we inherit the new earth at the same time, we can clearly see that Jesus reigns before his return, not after. Anything else would just contradict clear scripture in so many ways.

Therefore, because the above verses are so clear, the verses that seem to imply a literal earthly thousand year reign some time in our future after Christ's return, as well as the verses that seem to imply that Satan is not currently bound, must have been misunderstood because the Bible does not contradict itself.

 

[Straightshot]

"Something that is very clear indeed is that Jesus was given all authority and power before his ascension into heaven."


Never any different ..... He always has been in a position of power and authority [John 1:1-14] .... not a new thing

He recently came to the earth to save [Genesis 3:14-15; John 3:16-18]

And He is going to appear again .... to rule the same for 1000 years .... His choice [Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 14; Revelation 19:11-21; 20:4]

Then He will resurrect the spirits of all unbelievers to the second death in His lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15]

..... and then He will bring a new Heavens, a new earth, and His eternal kingdom [2 Peter 3:7-13; Revelation 21]

Summation: [1 Corinthian 15:20-28]

 

[LastSeven]

Straightshot, if you disagree with anything I've posted, let's try to keep this discussion focused so we can have an actual debate rather than simply throwing scriptures and interpretations at each other.

So let me simply ask you this. Do you not think that Jesus is currently reigning? And secondly, do you not believe that we are currently reigning as priests?

 

[Straightshot]

The Lord always controls His universe .... always has, always will

And all of His plans and objectives will be met 100% regardless of men do

However, humanity has gone astray and He has allowed this over time

He rules, but the majority of men given freewill have and will defect .... narrow is the way to eternal life and few find it

There are 8 billion people on the earth today and most have defected in rebellion .... look around .... it is audacious to think otherwise

If the Lord is ruling now then there is big problem with what the Christian believes .... that He is God and there is none other

He has left men to self governance and requires an accounting

..... He is not ruling over sinful men today, but waits for a decision and evaluates individual behavior

This is coming [Romans 8] .... but still pending

The believer in Jesus Christ knows this and knows that one must live among reprobate men, but not to be of the same

His ecclesia are currently a mystery kingdom not ruling upon the earth and to be revealed at His coming

Then and only then will the table be turned, but for now .... no

You may think you and your religious organization are ruling on the earth, but this is folly and even unrealistic thinking

 

[LastSeven]

I think you have an idea of what his rule should look like that does not match what you see in the world today. That however does not give you the right to ignore what Jesus said when he said he has been given all authority. Rather you need to adjust your expectations of his rule.

If you think he does not rule, then either Jesus was lying, or he was wrong, or he never said it in which case the Bible is wrong. How else can you justify saying that he does not rule, when clearly he said he has been given all authority? Do you think "ruling" and having "all authority" are not the same thing? If so, I'd love to hear you explain that one.