Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

[Davy]

Oh I see, so you can bypass biblical scholarship and proper hemeneutics and theological debate and just get God's direct guidance via Holy Spirit vibes, hey? Subjective much?

Theological debates and commentary don't determine what the actual written Word of God says. And the word hermeneutics is a word devised by men used to point to 'their' secularist methodology of interpretation, not to God's by The Holy Spirit. It's obvious too, because of all the theological seminaries that love to fight against each other, with something lacking in every one of them, especially the ones who push obvious error by not keeping to the Scriptures as written.

Even your... lack of understanding in it is shown by your mocking The Holy Spirit. Why should He show you anything with that kind of attitude? You might as well treat His Word like some fantasy novel without The Holy Spirit as Guide in it.

 

[eclipsenow]

Theological debates and commentary don't determine what the actual written Word of God says.

Agreed. The Scriptures interpret themselves.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New International Version
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.​

You can be thoroughly equipped for everything you need in life from the bible. It teaches us everything we need to know, and we learn how to read it and respond to it by studying it daily, discussing it, and thinking through the issues.

Which is what I'm trying to do here rather than have you just rely on your feelings. Nowhere above does it say "Just read this book and you'll FEEL what it says!" It talks about intellectual properties of God's word, that it will teach, rebuke, correct, train.

These are thinking, application, working words - not passively letting the vibe of it come up to you from your own subjective feelings and calling it the "Holy Spirit".

Hey, if you don't want to do the work because it's hard, then don't bother commenting here. But if you're actually prepared to discuss the last 2000 years of eschatological thinking, and are prepared to GET the teaching and rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness the bible requires, them I'm up for a chat.

Even your... lack of understanding in it is shown by your mocking The Holy Spirit. Why should He show you anything with that kind of attitude?

The Reformers took the church out of centuries of apostacy and being subject to the pretended authority of the Pope and church tradition by reminding us of verses like 2 Timothy 3:16 above. Basically, the situation was back to front. The Catholic church thought it was the authority over scripture, but Sola Scriptura takes us back to scripture being the authority over the church.

Sola Scriptura meant Scripture was the supreme authority over the church. The Bible ruled reason and tradition because it alone was infallible as God’s word. All other authorities (including church leadership) were fallible and must submit to Scripture.
The Real Meaning of Sola Scriptura - The Gospel Coalition | Australia​

Now what the Charismatic church has done is similar to the Catholic church, but instead of church tradition being the supreme authority over scripture, the Holy Spirit as 'felt' or experienced in their lives becomes the supreme authority over scripture.

But it is not church teaching, scholarship, reason, tradition, or even personal experience that should be the authority in our lives: but scripture itself. Now, we can still use these things, like catechisms, confessions of faith, etc, but we need to investigate whether these things match up to what we see in scripture.

For example, I have friends at Matthias Media, a publishing house associated with St Matthias Anglican church in Sydney, Australia. They are evangelical, bible believing publishers that try to help equip churches to submit themselves to the word of God.

How do they sum up all this?

4. The authority and sufficiency of the God-breathed Scriptures for gospel truth and life.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is revealed and explained in the writings of the Old and New Testaments. All the words of the Bible are God's words. They are not only true, reliable and authoritative, but God's sufficient means for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training his people in every age. Whatever else it may entail, or however it may be supported, all Christian evangelism and ministry centre on the prayerful speaking of the Bible's truth.

Accordingly, we refute any view that diminishes the Bible's authority, such as those who place the Bible under the authority of the Church or scholarship. We also oppose the claim that sections of Scripture are erroneous (e.g. in rejecting the bodily resurrection of Christ) or no longer relevant (e.g. in denying the continuing validity of biblical gender distinctions or the Bible's teachings on sexual morality). We also stand opposed to any view that rejects the Bible's sufficiency by claiming access to new or fresh revelation—whether by ecstatic experience, words of knowledge, meditative contemplation, church councils or liturgical ritual.
Mission and Convictions​

You might as well treat His Word like some fantasy novel without The Holy Spirit as Guide in it.

If you're going to bypass rational discussion of the Scriptures that are our final authority, and basically appeal to YOUR own gut feelings, then I'm done. Your gut feelings or the "Holy Spirit" as you call them are not MY final authority - Scripture is. The Holy Spirit regenerating my heart according to and through his living word. Not bypassing my rational mind, but by conforming my rational mind to his word.

Basically, if you want to take YOUR experience of the Holy Spirit (your own gut feelings) as some kind of extra authority over and above or against Scripture, I must disagree. I can only parody that position by saying my gut feelings disagree with yours. And again, where are we at the end of that?

 

[Davy]

Agreed. The Scriptures interpret themselves.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New International Version
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.​

You can be thoroughly equipped for everything you need in life from the bible. It teaches us everything we need to know, and we learn how to read it and respond to it by studying it daily, discussing it, and thinking through the issues.

Which is what I'm trying to do here rather than have you just rely on your feelings. Nowhere above does it say "Just read this book and you'll FEEL what it says!" It talks about intellectual properties of God's word, that it will teach, rebuke, correct, train.

These are thinking, application, working words - not passively letting the vibe of it come up to you from your own subjective feelings and calling it the "Holy Spirit".

Hey, if you don't want to do the work because it's hard, then don't bother commenting here. But if you're actually prepared to discuss the last 2000 years of eschatological thinking, and are prepared to GET the teaching and rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness the bible requires, them I'm up for a chat.

All that can be classified as goading, making false assuming statements in order to PROVOKE or ANNOY. You don't know me, and you certainly don't know my level of education to be making such silly assumptions, which you KNOW are false! But thanks for showing us your disposition towards dishonesty.

A correct Bible understanding comes from GOD, not men. The only thing men can help in it is learning a language and reading skills. According to each person's faith and ability to study, then it's up to God to give understanding. Line upon line, chapter by chapter, here a little and there a little, is how God said to study His Word. Those who don't... do it that way are always seeking out instruction by others, commentaries, books, and theological debates.

 

[eclipsenow]

All that can be classified as goading, making false assuming statements in order to PROVOKE or ANNOY. You don't know me, and you certainly don't know my level of education to be making such silly assumptions, which you KNOW are false! But thanks for showing us your disposition towards dishonesty.

I disagree. I don't know you, I only know what you've presented here which seems to be saying you don't have to read theology - you're just going to tune into the Holy Spirit or something. If anything, your attitude in condemning my whole approach to the bible as 'secularist' almost breaks forum rules! You are the one that has been quite condemning and goading from the start.

A correct Bible understanding comes from GOD, not men.

Agreed! But how?
I'm saying through his authoritative word, the Son of God, then recorded for all time in the bible.

The only thing men can help in it is learning a language and reading skills.

And theology and debate and even understanding what the great Reformation was all about... but hey, if you don't want shorthand for such basic gospel concepts as:

1. Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.
2. Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
3. Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.
4. Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.

...then just keep condemning the great works of theology as 'secularist'.

According to each person's faith and ability to study, then it's up to God to give understanding.

Yes, but if we removed ALL the great works of theology and only had access to the languages and history that would help us understand the raw scriptural texts themselves, I'm convinced we'd come back to the same concepts - maybe by different names - as we have now. For the Trinity is in the scriptures, even if it isn't called that. Being saved by grace is in the scriptures, and IS called that. I don't see the study of theology as 'secularist' but as a quick way to be grounded in God's truth and come to understand the great debates over time. But the Scriptures are the great final authority for fully equipping us in matters of godliness.

Line upon line, chapter by chapter, here a little and there a little, is how God said to study His Word.

Well, there's also meeting together to encourage each other, teaching, prophesying to the current generation the great truths of God, etc etc etc. In other words, what you do when you go to seminary is discuss and debate his word - pretty much as he has commanded the church to do in the New Testament. If someone were to say "I'm just going to believe the great catechism and tradition I was raised in" then that's NOT testing the scriptures but potentially elevating the seminary you went to as the final authority instead of the bible.

But as long as you have the concept that the bible itself is the final authority, then bible college is of immense help.

Those who don't... do it that way are always seeking out instruction by others, commentaries, books, and theological debates.

Yeah, but how can you prove to me anything you've come to understand from the "holy spirit" directly is actually from him, and not just some psychological thing you're going through right now? Or something worse and more sinister?

Sorry but I'm sticking with the bible as my highest authority as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says to, and as the great reformers said to. Sola Scriptura, and all that.

 

[Davy]

I disagree. I don't know you, I only know what you've presented here which seems to be saying you don't have to read theology - you're just going to tune into the Holy Spirit or something. If anything, your attitude in condemning my whole approach to the bible as 'secularist' almost breaks forum rules! You are the one that has been quite condemning and goading from the start.

Once again, what I actually said and what you assume I said in your own mind, are two different things. And you need to quite making PERSONAL ATTACKS.

 

[eclipsenow]

Once again, what I actually said and what you assume I said in your own mind, are two different things. And you need to quite making PERSONAL ATTACKS.

If you think I have misrepresented what you are saying then you need to demonstrate how if have done so. Basically unless you think you saw a tongue-of-fire actually physically come out and rest on your head, I'm not sure by what authority you think you have to say "God helped me understand his word through the Holy Spirit" in any special sense. You're not an eyewitness of Jesus life and ministry and death and resurrection, and not specially blessed by the Holy Spirit to write scripture, so as far as I can tell from God's word - you're in the same boat as all of us.

Trying to understand his Word from his word. You know this conversation is the sort of thing that goes on in seminary & theological colleges, right? That this is how we learn.