Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

  • Thread starter LittleLambofJesus
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What I think about the 1000yr period

  • Before the 1000yrs

  • During the 1000yrs

  • After the 1000yrs

  • Doesn't matter to me


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LastSeven

Amil
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You don't buy my story? I'm not asking you to buy my story. I don't even have a story. I'm asking you how you can justify claiming that Jesus does not reign when he clearly said he has received all authority.

And saying that he has always had authority does not wash because if he always had it, he would not have been given it. Also, if he always had it, then why would he give it up to God the father after the resurrection?

If you truly believe you can justify your position, then show me the scriptures as I have shown you scripture.

This is not about you vs me or my story vs your story. We don't get to make our own Bibles. We just need to figure out what God's Bible is saying, and if you think I'm reading it wrong, please explain because that's kind of important.

I'm sure you're probably thinking about the verse that says the devil prowls around the earth looking who he can devour, but I can explain that if that is a point you'd like to address. I ask from you the same courtesy. Please explain the point I have made which is that Jesus has received all authority. How do you not reign if you have all authority? In my mind that a logical impossibility, but if I'm missing something, please explain.

And for the record I have no religious affiliation. I'm merely a child of God looking for the truth.
 
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eclipsenow

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You don't buy my story? I'm not asking you to buy my story. I don't even have a story. I'm asking you how you can justify claiming that Jesus does not reign when he clearly said he has received all authority.

And saying that he has always had authority does not wash because if he always had it, he would not have been given it. Also, if he always had it, then why would he give it up to God the father after the resurrection?

If you truly believe you can justify your position, then show me the scriptures as I have shown you scripture.

This is not about you vs me or my story vs your story. We don't get to make our own Bibles. We just need to figure out what God's Bible is saying, and if you think I'm reading it wrong, please explain because that's kind of important.

I'm sure you're probably thinking about the verse that says the devil prowls around the earth looking who he can devour, but I can explain that if that is a point you'd like to address. I ask from you the same courtesy. Please explain the point I have made which is that Jesus has received all authority. How do you not reign if you have all authority? In my mind that a logical impossibility, but if I'm missing something, please explain.

And for the record I have no religious affiliation. I'm merely a child of God looking for the truth.

Exactly! He's reigning now, and the 'tribulation' is now and has been for 2000 years (since John himself said he shared in it, See Revelation 1).
I'm amazed at all these silly end-times-tables people draw up. The Lord will return but we just don't know when: 5 seconds from now or 50,000 years! We just don't know. Indeed, instead of earth-shattering events just before the end people will be saying "Peace, peace" and giving in marriage and all the other normal activities of this world.
 
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LastSeven

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Yet, even when you point out how clearly scripture actually lays out the order of events, they not only deny it contradicts their position, they also refuse to explain why.

That's what I really don't understand about people. If you strongly believe something you should be able to explain why. And if strong evidence contradicts your position, as a Christian you should be humble enough to consider it.

Isn't the whole point of this forum to help each other get closer to the truth? Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's to show everybody how smart we are?
 
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Danoh

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Yet, even when you point out how clearly scripture actually lays out the order of events, they not only deny it contradicts their position, they also refuse to explain why.

That's what I really don't understand about people. If you strongly believe something you should be able to explain why. And if strong evidence contradicts your position, as a Christian you should be humble enough to consider it.

Isn't the whole point of this forum to help each other get closer to the truth? Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's to show everybody how smart we are?

Its not always as black and white as the mindreading of your school maked it.

It is often the case one knows an assertion is off-base but does not yet know how; just that it is. Where one knows that one knows but does not yet have the words, where that critical link between knowing and being able to prove it have not yet come together.

A friend of mine is a Boxer. Often, he'll know what he means, but not have the words yet. At which point, his hands become much more animated. He knows what he is talking about but it has not yet reached conscious awareness of those words that express that knowing.

This is an aspect any science of detection encounters on a regular basis and is the result of an understanding time in Scripture has resulted in at an intuitive level that has not yet reached the level of conscious awareness; some piece in between that would result in the intuitive understanding arising to conscious awareness - that "now I see it moment" that is "the eyes of your understanding."

Case in point, all those passages you cited in your attempt to prove your view as to the actual sense of the Lord's "all power... is given me..."

They do not assert what you assert they do. You actually made some critical errors. But I'll get back to you on this as I am posting this post by phone.
 
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LastSeven

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I do know what you mean about knowing something without yet knowing how to back it up. I've been there, and I've found that being prodded by others on this forum in particular is often the impetus needed to dig deep and find out why it is you know what you know. Having to back up your claims is a great way to learn.

Looking forward to hearing why you think I made critical errors.
 
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eclipsenow said in post 935:

C3PO is the antichrist!

The Antichrist won't be a robot. But the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way that this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of supercomputers running advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the Antichrist's brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it is not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: he could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically-everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, television, computer, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what is going on around the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (i.e. in a brainwashing camp, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it is released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.

Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What is left of the bodies could then be stuffed into shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic, Black Pyramid of Death, which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is that he didn't, for he created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to saved humans through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)

Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all of their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", it could be that some people in each group will start to really get into the evening worship sessions, and even begin to (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

But the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

eclipsenow said in post 935:

Jesus has 7 eyes and 7 horns . . .

Parts of Revelation 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Revelation 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).

We know what is a metaphor and what is literal by comparing each part of a verse with other verses (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). For example, we know that Jesus isn't literally a lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes (Revelation 5:6), because other verses show that he is literally a human (Luke 24:39; 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26, Hebrews 2:17).

In Revelation 5:6, while the horns and eyes are symbolic, they can represent literal things, so that the number 7 can refer literally to 7 things. The 7 horns of the Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent Jesus holding literally 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). These 7 positions of power could be, for example, Jesus' power as the Son of God (Revelation 2:18), his power as the Word of God (Revelation 19:13), his power as the King of kings and Lord of lords (Revelation 19:16), his power as High Priest (Hebrews 3:1), his power as the King of Israel (John 12:13), his power as the Lamb of God (John 1:29), and his power as the firstborn (in the sense of importance, not chronology) of all creation (Colossians 1:15b).

And Revelation 5:6 tells us what the 7 eyes of the Jesus lamb represent: "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth". These can literally be 7 Spirits of God, which could be the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2).
 
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LastSeven said in post 936:

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus isn't yet exercising his omnipotence of Matthew 28:18 to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the future millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

LastSeven said in post 936:

Also, it's clear that scripture never says Christ would reign on earth.

Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6. For the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There is no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, the church will reign forever on the new earth. For the church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

LastSeven said in post 936:

We can also clearly see that Jesus will not return to earth until all things are restored . . .

In Acts 3:21, "all things" can be distinguished from the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1), just as "all things" in Matthew 17:11 can be distinguished from them. Elijah coming back to the earth in the future (before Jesus) to "restore all things" (Matthew 17:11) can refer to him restoring all true doctrine, i.e. all true interpretation of the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), to the church, as one of the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12), during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. And Jesus coming back to the earth immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) to "restore all things" (Acts 3:20-21) can refer to him restoring all things regarding the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

For Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

LastSeven said in post 936:

Jesus stays in heaven until the end of his reign . . .

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

LastSeven said in post 936:

Therefore, because the above verses are so clear, the verses that seem to imply a literal earthly thousand year reign some time in our future after Christ's return, as well as the verses that seem to imply that Satan is not currently bound, must have been misunderstood because the Bible does not contradict itself.

There are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, while currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), while currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), while there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving, unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), while by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the church will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).
 
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LastSeven

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Jesus isn't yet exercising his omnipotence of Matthew 28:18 to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the future millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

The only example you have there of Jesus on earth is Zechariah 14 and it is referring to the new earth. Compare it to Revelation 21 and you'll see.

That other stuff is all poetic language. The idea that he's not exercising his authority is baloney. What part of "my kingdom is not of this world" do you not understand? Why do you insist that he will be an earthly king in an earthly kingdom? Jesus told you straight up that is not his thing. You don't believe him?

And that Micah passage is talking about a temple. Do you really think God will have us build another physical temple structure? Why would he do that? That makes absolutely no sense and as a Christian you should know better. To think he will dwell in a temple is downright heretical!
 
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Danoh

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The only example you have there of Jesus on earth is Zechariah 14 and it is referring to the new earth. Compare it to Revelation 21 and you'll see.

That other stuff is all poetic language. The idea that he's not exercising his authority is baloney. What part of "my kingdom is not of this world" do you not understand? Why do you insist that he will be an earthly king in an earthly kingdom? Jesus told you straight up that is not his thing. You don't believe him?

And that Micah passage is talking about a temple. Do you really think God will have us build another physical temple structure? Why would he do that? That makes absolutely no sense and as a Christian you should know better. To think he will dwell in a temple is downright heretical!

"BUT NOW is my kingdom not FROM HENCE," John 18:36.

And, I'm working on that other one; will have it laid out in a day or so, other things permiting the time, the required passages, etc.; but, will have it for ya - "ya, ya betcha!" :)
 
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LastSeven

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1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't require that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming.

So let me get this straight. My position is perfectly supported by this passage as it is, but in order for your position to be supported you have to insert a thousand year period in between those words somewhere. And you don't see any problem with that?

For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

See that part in red? That's a key part that you keep inserting into scripture which is not really there. Nowhere does it say "Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years". Why do you think it's o.k. to insert text into scripture?
 
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BABerean2

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Matthew chapter 25 destroys both the pretrib and the premill doctrine, and supports the John chapter 5 simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust.


Therefore, many attempt to change it to a passage that speaks about rewards.


Compare the language in the parable of the wheat and tares to what we find in Matthew chapter 25.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

............................................................


Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. The same language is used in Matthew 24.

(Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.)



Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The same language as Matt 13:42 for those thrown into hell.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
We have here the John chapter 5 simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust.


Anyone who claims this is about the rewards of believers is attempting to defend their manmade doctrine.

The idea has more holes than chicken-wire.

 
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Straightshot

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Matthew 25:1-13 signifies the Lord's calling to immortalize His ecclesia just before His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment of the tribulation period .... those with oil

The others with no oil represent those who profess only and will not go through the door

This passage of scripture parallels Revelation 3:10 and 3:15-19

Those who profess only will find themselves in the tribulation .... and the Lord admonishes the same to repent
 
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LastSeven said in post 949:

What part of "my kingdom is not of this world" do you not understand?

John 18:36 means Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

LastSeven said in post 949:

Do you really think God will have us build another physical temple structure?

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a 3rd temple (which will have been built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

LastSeven said in post 949:

To think he will dwell in a temple is downright heretical!

Acts 7:48-50, like Acts 17:24, refers back to the principle of Isaiah 66:1-2a, which was true even at the time of Solomon's temple (2 Chronicles 2:6). It means the Creator God YHWH is too big to dwell only in temples made with hands. For it is not contradicting that God did dwell in Solomon's temple in the earthly Jerusalem (1 Kings 8:11), and then God dwelt in the 2nd temple in the earthly Jerusalem (Matthew 23:21), in which 2nd temple the church continued to worship God, even after Jesus' sacrificial death for our sins and his physical resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). And so nothing requires that God won't also dwell in the 3rd temple which will be built in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). And God could also dwell in the 4th temple which will be built in the earthly Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13), which won't begin until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).
 
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BABerean2 said in post 952:

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

BABerean2 said in post 952:

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of the individuals in the church (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient individuals in the church entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient believers losing their salvation at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through the darkness of outer space.

BABerean2 said in post 952:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

BABerean2 said in post 952:

We have here the John chapter 5 simultaneous resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Regarding John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).
 
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Straightshot said in post 953:

Matthew 25:1-13 signifies the Lord's calling to immortalize His ecclesia just before His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment of the tribulation period .... those with oil

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).
 
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Dave Watchman

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Why are Christians so confused about these matters when they are plainly revealed in Scripture? That too is Satanic deception.




Don't know. Seems pretty clear to me :)

Acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly was confused,
and most of them did not know why they had come together.


It would seem that the assembly continues to be confused and that we forget why we had come together. Like the riot in Ephesus, it's too easy for the assembly to fall into a Kung-Foo fight.

As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,

.......but the greatest of these is love.
 
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Dave Watchman

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Yet, even when you point out how clearly scripture actually lays out the order of events, they not only deny it contradicts their position, they also refuse to explain why.

That's what I really don't understand about people. If you strongly believe something you should be able to explain why. And if strong evidence contradicts your position, as a Christian you should be humble enough to consider it.

Isn't the whole point of this forum to help each other get closer to the truth? Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's to show everybody how smart we are?

From what I can understand about this discussion, the importance of whether or not Jesus has already began reigning would help to determine if the 1000 years of Rev. 20 has begun. How I would know the answer to this depends on various other disciplines that are contradictory to theologies such as Preterism and Amillenialism. It would be nice if you were right in that the whole point of this forum is to help each other get closer to the truth but I can't help at times to feel like I'm being indoctrinated into some sort of strange religion. Even if I could prove in one paragraph or less that Jesus can't be reigning yet, I would take no enjoyment in the nullification of another Brother's read on Scripture.

Some posters seem to understand intuitively that Jesus can't be currently reigning with or without the Saints. Common sense seems to tell us that when the Lord begins His Reign that the little season will be over with and the souls under the alter will cry no more. That's the good news for the end time tribulation saints, when Jesus begins His Reign not one remaining Christian will be harmed even though 75 days will remain before the Second Coming.

This describes the start of Jesus' Reign at the end of the 1260 days of Daniel 12:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book"

The Twenty Four Elders also called the same point in prophetic time in Revelation 11, at the end of the 42 months or 1260 days:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign"​

All power was given to Him in heaven and in earth back in Matthew 28 but He does not take His great power and begin to reign until most of the way through our end time tribulation.

The Time Times and Half a Time from Daniel 12 has not yet begun. The 42 months from Revelation 11 has not yet begun. The 1260 days from Revelation 11 has not yet begun. These three prophetic time periods are the same simultaneous spaces of days that have to be completed before Jesus' Reign can begin. This means that the 1000 years of Revelation 20 has not started yet.

The Gold Lampstand and the Two Olive Trees

At the time Zechariah 4 was written there was only one solid gold Lampstand.

During the first century destruction of Jerusalem there was still only one solid gold Lampstand.

Now we have Two Lampstands to complete the set so that the scene from Revelation 11 can begin. One is The Old, the other is The New.

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth"​

"Your Word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path"​
 
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Straightshot

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"The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming"


This separating event occurs just before the Lord's coming hour of trial and judgment [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10] [Revelation 3:15-19]

The book of Revelation revolves and repeats subject matter as the narrative moves forward

And in this case you are reading about the Lord's true ecclesia in a linear chronological sequence

Each vision of the subject is not linear, but layered with each presentation giving more detail

His true immortal church is presented at the beginning, during, and at the ending of the tribulation [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4] .... and these will not enter the tribulation .... the ones with oil [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10]

The others with no oil will enter the tribulation .... those with no oil [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

"Midnight" will strike just before the tribulation begins

Example: The 144000 of Israel on the earth will be sealed first [Revelation 7:1-8] and next the great city part of MBG will be destroyed at the onset of the tribulation [Revelation 14:7-8] .... the immortal ecclesia will observe this destruction [Revelation 19:1-9]

The 144000 are seen upon the earth and at the same time the Lord's immortal ecclesia are seen in heaven [Revelation 7:9-17] just before the judgment begins

And seen again several times as the tribulation moves forward

The Lord will "return" just before the beginning of the tribulation to separate His true ecclesia from those who profess only .... and He will appear visibly upon the earth at the end of the same

The "marriage supper" comes first just before the beginning of the tribulation .... not at any other time during, or at the end of the period
 
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Matthew 25:1-13 signifies the Lord's calling to immortalize His ecclesia just before His coming hour [time] of trial and judgment of the tribulation period .... those with oil

The others with no oil represent those who profess only and will not go through the door

This passage of scripture parallels Revelation 3:10 and 3:15-19

Those who profess only will find themselves in the tribulation .... and the Lord admonishes the same to repent

When taken as a whole, the text of Matthew chapter 25 says they will find themselves in hell, not in the tribulation.

.
 
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