Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

[gideons300]

It seems to me that the assumption by some is that if something is elemental, we mature ones can leave it behind. But the elemental truths are the foundation of truth that we are to be built on.

Just as one builds a building by first laying a good foundation, from that point on the entire building is built upon that foundation. You don't move past it, you build ON it.

Obviously according to scripture, obedience was a key part of the old covenant...the law. It said in essence.... Do and you shall be.

But scriptures are clear if we are willing to look at them. Obedience is a key part of the new covenant as well, for we are told:

He gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey Him.

He becomes the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him.

Amen?

Look, this is not law as some desperately try to make it. No, it is not law at all. It is not works based. It is submitting ourselves totally to God so that He will do His part..... cause us to obey!/B]. The glory of the new covenant does indeed start with forgiveness, but it is not to end there. We are urged to reckon our old nature, one that CANNOT obey...as dead. We are told we must HATE our life. How can we do this? We see it for what it really is, a disobedient nature ruled by us, not Jesus.

When we finally make up our minds that we want to obey our dear Lord in ALL things, that hatred we need comes easy. Once we can separate ourselves from it, glory is about to fall. We now can clothe ourselves with our new natures that can indeed be caused to will AND to do of His good pleasure. It is then that the beauty of the new covenant we are blessed with comes clear.

Unlike the law.... do and you shall be, under the new it is

Be and you shall do!

The need for obedience was not done away with by our new covenant. It was provided! How do we get this to be ours? The first step is to hunger and thirst for it. Without this, no progress will be made for our entire Christian walk is ordained to be built on this foundation. We do not grow to the point obedience is not needed..... ever. We grow to the point that obedience to the Spirit's gentle wooings becomes so natural that there is no "effort" at all. God sows in us the desire to obey Him in all things, and then sows in us the ability to do it.... to will AND to do of His good pleasure. Praise God. Now THAT is good news!

So we need to ask ourselves. Is our "building" built upon this foundation? Do our hearts hunger and thirst for righteousness...not just forgiveness? If we err here, and do not dig deep to make sure our foundation is built upon Jesus being our Lord as well as our savior, with Him reigning over us, our building may look fine to us BUT.... when the coming storm hits, and it is coming, our building that looks so strong and immovable will fall like a house built on sand.

Elemental truths are our foundation. Repentance, faith, obedience.... or at least the willingness and hunger to obey... these are what insure that when push comes to shove, our building will not collapse but stand firm no matter what satan throws at us. THAT is real safety.

Blessings to all,

Gids

Blessings,

 

[Gregory Thompson]

elemental or elementary?

 

[StephanieSomer]

Then I will have to disagree with you being that scripture tells us what we must do in order for us to live the sin free life. I personally hold scripture to be a greater authority than I hold you to be on the topic at hand.

Now, as to new nature, we aren't talking about living in the old nature, a nature that was dead to Christ, had no indwelling HS and no will to live in the truth of Christ. Rather we are talking about the new nature, a nature that is alive in Christ, determined to live in the truths of the cross, is the temple of the Living God, etc.

It is impossible for the new nature to sin. It's just that simple. I remain in the new nature as long as I remain in faith of God's promise to give me that nature. As long as I AM in that new nature, sin is impossible. It has no hold nor enticement to the new nature. If we have sinned, it's a definite sign that we have neglected to remain in faith. It IS possible to neglect the faith and not actually commit an act of sin. But, if that is the case, we are then living according to the flesh and not the spirit. And, in the flesh, the Christian life is hard and heavy. Christ said His burden is light. If it isn't light, faith is vacant.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Stephanie says, You cannot live in both natures simultaneously. IF you live in the new nature consistently, the old nature is dead. So, yes, we CAN "just live and breathe in the new nature". For, IF we are in the new nature, the cross has already killed the old nature.

Notice the word consistently, then the words can and if bolded.
That's saying the same as stay obedient, so what's the problem with staying obedient?
Any friend will get along with another friend. Not go contrary to them.

We do not access the new nature through obedience, but through faith. The obedience is the RESULT of the new nature, not it's cause. So, it isn't the same as staying obedient, UNLESS you mean "obedient to the faith". Obedience to the faith is not the same thing as obedience to law. We can ONLY fail at obedience to law. It's a waste of time and effort. We CAN remain obedient to the faith, and as a result to THAT the obedience to law is a natural fruit.

 

[StephanieSomer]

wow...okay, the easiest way for me to evidence the difference is the Amish community. I live in an Amish community and know them pretty well. They are very legalistic. For example, our neighbors were allowed a phone in the barn for business purposes. They used it for anything but because of legalism it was not allowed in the house and not suppose to be used for private business. Everything from the kind of wheels on their tools to the way they dress is under the law. This is legalism. BY contrast, obedience isn't about the law, as I have repeatedly said, it is about Love. It is about doing what brings glory to God. So for example, when the Amish call and want a ride, I love them with a ride to the store. I refrain from judgment, not because the law says, don't judge but because the "law of Love" says that judging others is not pleasing to God. Etc. etc. etc.

We are no longer under the law, iow's we are not bound to the OT law that governed every aspect of our lives with legalistic type things like what we could and could not do on the Sabbath. But the OT law gave way to the NT law of Love by which we are to live in obedience, even this very moment of this very day. Not by splitting hairs with what the intent of the law is saying, but rather with an understanding of what the intent of the law is. Scripture tells us that love sums up all the law and prophets, that makes love the very intent of the law, no more legalism required, we know the intent and the intent is Biblical Love.

In reality, you and I are not that different in our positions. I also recognize the law of Love which you are referring to. How that relates to what I've been saying is that that type of love isn't possible UNLESS one is actually in the new nature. The old nature cannot love that way, nor even comprehend it.

My point has been that living in that nature isn't accomplished through obedience, but through faith. And that after faith does accomplish it's work, obedience will naturally follow as a result of the love which we are then able to give. I do recognize obedience as a good thing, and much to be desired. But, it isn't possible until after we have exercised faith to access the new nature, where that obedience can only come from. Agreed?

 

[StephanieSomer]

Reading all this back and forth has been interesting. Begs a few questions for me though: can we be anymore righteous than we already are (the God-kind, as imputed by him, not the self-righteous kind)? And therefore, can our actions or behavior make us more righteous?

Righteousness isn't a result of actions or behavior. The acts and behavior are a result of our level of righteousness. So, no, our actions or behavior cannot make us more righteous.

 

[Biblicist]

It seems to me that the assumption by some is that if something is elemental, we mature ones can leave it behind. But the elemental truths are the foundation of truth that we are to be built on.

As I was a bit beyond being bored with the odd notion that 'obedience' is not necessary where the so called 'arguments' for this strange position went way beyond the Scriptures and with reason, while I was perusing through the thread to see what was happening I then came across your gem.

Even though Froggy has totally confused himself by adding his views back into the Greek word stoicheion without absolutely any warrant with doing so, where he has further compounded his error by trying to force-fit his improper understanding of this word back into the text which has sent him off into a tangent, it's good to see that someone has finally pointed out the obvious that we are not to ditch the fundamentals of the Christian walk but where we are commanded to build on this solid foundation.

 

[Alithis]

but some here don't accept scripture as the authority, did you miss that?

Dont..but should. On this forum scripture is considered fully authoritive.
the verse recently posted .."teaching them to obey...."

Is final authority on the topic

 

[Alithis]

We do not access the new nature through obedience, but through faith. The obedience is the RESULT of the new nature, not it's cause. So, it isn't the same as staying obedient, UNLESS you mean "obedient to the faith". Obedience to the faith is not the same thing as obedience to law. We can ONLY fail at obedience to law. It's a waste of time and effort. We CAN remain obedient to the faith, and as a result to THAT the obedience to law is a natural fruit.

Thats true.
my old nature is to rebel not obey.
thus the verh act of obedience is living in the nature of christ..walking in his spiriit....in the new nature.
it is impossible to walk in his new nature within me while walking in disobedience..

 

[Frogster]

okay last time I am going to say this and I will cap it so maybe you will not miss it this time, then we are done....WHEN I POSTED THE PASSAGE, ENTERING IT INTO THE DISCUSSION I DID SO TO SHOW THAT WE WERE TO MOVE FROM THE ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS INTO MATURITY. THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOUR IDEA OF WHAT IS ELEMENTARY TEACHING DOES NOTLINE UP WITH THE TEXT, THUS DOES NOT MATCH WHAT SCRIPTURE CALLS THE ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR ASSERTIONS. I really don't like to yell at people in posts, but you have been ignoring this for so long I don't know what else to do.wow...and you know what, I can say it backwards too...wow...the text clearly says that the elementary teachings are the talking about it, we are to move into the living it. I showed you that straight out of the passage and you just hand wave it away...if you want to just handwave scripture away, do so, just make sure the innocent aren't standing too close when lightening strikes. I've been to Gal. several times now and it says exactly what I showed you in Heb. 6...not sure what you think you gain by pretending otherwise, but this ignoring what you are told is old and has to stop.

you can say I sound like gibberish in your other post, you can use caps, whatever, but ths bottom line is, I have handily over and over again, shown that they were to leave the elementals, the law, Judaism and or whatever, in both passages of contention. I mean really!

lets leave that stuff...lookie here>>>


6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

I have shown it was ofr kids, and that is that.


Obedience cnetered lives, are elemental.


You have not in any way disproved what i said.

And the foot washing answer really was way off, and i showed you that the dead works had to be Judaism, just liek the washings. So again, I have prevailed with truth.


On all accounts, i have been right.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Reading all this back and forth has been interesting. Begs a few questions for me though: can we be anymore righteous than we already are (the God-kind, as imputed by him, not the self-righteous kind)? And therefore, can our actions or behavior make us more righteous?

We cant be more righteous in Gods eyes because we are clothed in Christs righteousness. So in Gods eyes no ..... moving on to what entitles one to rewards may be another topic altogether because Paul specified how important they were and that he didnt consider the race complete until he had accomplished all.

 

[Frogster]

text arguing is living by the letter .. living by the Holy Spirit, in the spirit of the text ,rather then the letter of it ,is a living breathing loving relationship with my Lord and Savior ...i have the written word as a solid rock of reference in instruction .. but it points me to the lord Jesus who has risen from the dead and walks and talks with me by his Holy Spirit and always in agreement to his word .. he has shown me it is essential to obey God who knows all things in a manner we can never know and is thus all wise and obedience to him, is eternally beneficial and absolute in necessity to abide in him .

its a case of searching the scriptures because in the scripture you think you have eternal life . but the scriptures (the text) is not pointing to itself but to the living word who is the Lord Jesus .
for someone who speaks so adamantly against the law .. it is an intellectual law of text ,without relationship or life application which you seem impose upon almost every topic which assumes a living relationship with the lord Jesus.

the op asks- does the bible teach obedience ..?
the simple answer is -yes ...

it records the words of the lord Jesus himself who over and over reiterates the importance and need of obedience.

consider: He is what your arguing against .. not some "text" .

But my point was not about there being obedience texts was it? No, it was about elementalism, and leaving the lower existence of living under law, with obedience front and center, in almost a fixation, with some people. That was my argument, and you can not refute that point, or my text I provided.

Then with m puppy analogy, it proved it, obedeince is not that high of a plane, unless we think puppies are spiritual. Obedience is elemental, and I would urge you to hear what I am saying.

Do other religions teach obedience, does the military teach it? Yes, and what does that make them? ..lol..other things but not Christians. (yes there can be Christian military, but obedience is not what makes us be Christians).

A good guy may be disobedient, and a bad guy might be obedient, to get out of jail sooner on good behavior. See my point? Some overdo obedience as the be all end all goal.

Alrighty, that settles that!

 

[Frogster]

It seems to me that the assumption by some is that if something is elemental, we mature ones can leave it behind. But the elemental truths are the foundation of truth that we are to be built on.

Just as one builds a building by first laying a good foundation, from that point on the entire building is built upon that foundation. You don't move past it, you build ON it.

Obviously according to scripture, obedience was a key part of the old covenant...the law. It said in essence.... Do and you shall be.

But scriptures are clear if we are willing to look at them. Obedience is a key part of the new covenant as well, for we are told:

He gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey Him.

He becomes the author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him.

Amen?

Look, this is not law as some desperately try to make it. No, it is not law at all. It is not works based. It is submitting ourselves totally to God so that He will do His part..... cause us to obey!/B]. The glory of the new covenant does indeed start with forgiveness, but it is not to end there. We are urged to reckon our old nature, one that CANNOT obey...as dead. We are told we must HATE our life. How can we do this? We see it for what it really is, a disobedient nature ruled by us, not Jesus.

When we finally make up our minds that we want to obey our dear Lord in ALL things, that hatred we need comes easy. Once we can separate ourselves from it, glory is about to fall. We now can clothe ourselves with our new natures that can indeed be caused to will AND to do of His good pleasure. It is then that the beauty of the new covenant we are blessed with comes clear.

Unlike the law.... do and you shall be, under the new it is

Be and you shall do!

The need for obedience was not done away with by our new covenant. It was provided! How do we get this to be ours? The first step is to hunger and thirst for it. Without this, no progress will be made for our entire Christian walk is ordained to be built on this foundation. We do not grow to the point obedience is not needed..... ever. We grow to the point that obedience to the Spirit's gentle wooings becomes so natural that there is no "effort" at all. God sows in us the desire to obey Him in all things, and then sows in us the ability to do it.... to will AND to do of His good pleasure. Praise God. Now THAT is good news!

So we need to ask ourselves. Is our "building" built upon this foundation? Do our hearts hunger and thirst for righteousness...not just forgiveness? If we err here, and do not dig deep to make sure our foundation is built upon Jesus being our Lord as well as our savior, with Him reigning over us, our building may look fine to us BUT.... when the coming storm hits, and it is coming, our building that looks so strong and immovable will fall like a house built on sand.

Elemental truths are our foundation. Repentance, faith, obedience.... or at least the willingness and hunger to obey... these are what insure that when push comes to shove, our building will not collapse but stand firm no matter what satan throws at us. THAT is real safety.

Blessings to all,

Gids

Blessings,

Bro gid, is obedience central to law? Can you have law that does not demand obedience?


Heb 2:2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,



Bottom line, there is a strong conjunction, with the 2, and to be obedient, one knows if he is not also, so the more one is centered on right and wrong, obedience or failure, that ia living in elementalism, and a very distrubing law centered life.

It's just true bro, look at that verse above. Retribution, that is what I meant by good puppy, bad puppy, good guy, bad guy, yes, good girl, bad girl too, they do not get a free ride.. that is a low plane to live on. Crime and punishment.

alright now, be blessed, frog.

Again, the obedient people out there could wonder whay all the fuss about obedience? They just are, but it is not the center of their lives, or doctrine.

 

[Frogster]

As I was a bit beyond being bored with the odd notion that 'obedience' is not necessary where the so called 'arguments' for this strange position went way beyond the Scriptures and with reason, while I was perusing through the thread to see what was happening I then came across your gem.

Even though Froggy has totally confused himself by adding his views back into the Greek word stoicheion without absolutely any warrant with doing so, where he has further compounded his error by trying to force-fit his improper understanding of this word back into the text which has sent him off into a tangent, it's good to see that someone has finally pointed out the obvious that we are not to ditch the fundamentals of the Christian walk but where we are commanded to build on this solid foundation.

no way, it means rudiments in the definition below, that means basic things, not advanced things bro. The a.b.c's. That is why in Gal 4:3, it uses the english word, ELEMENTARY....that is why it talks about the child, children, under managers, stuck in the elementary ways, and it was a religious system, law filled Judaism, so you are wrong. Just like how it is used in Heb 5:12, they needed teaching, to leave the rudiments, they were babes, all confirming what I said about stoicheion, and the elementary a.b.c's.


Gal 4:1 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,[a] though he is the owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.






στοιχεῖον (stoicheion)
Strong: G4747

GK: G5122

an element; an element of the natural universe, 2 Pet. 3:10, 12; an element or rudiment of any intellectual or religious system, Gal. 4:3, 9; Col. 2:8, 20; Heb. 5:12

 

[Frogster]

As I was a bit beyond being bored with the odd notion that 'obedience' is not necessary where the so called 'arguments' for this strange position went way beyond the Scriptures and with reason, while I was perusing through the thread to see what was happening I then came across your gem.

Even though Froggy has totally confused himself by adding his views back into the Greek word stoicheion without absolutely any warrant with doing so, where he has further compounded his error by trying to force-fit his improper understanding of this word back into the text which has sent him off into a tangent, it's good to see that someone has finally pointed out the obvious that we are not to ditch the fundamentals of the Christian walk but where we are commanded to build on this solid foundation.

Even Warren Wiersbe calls stoicheion the a.b.c.'s, and the context totally fits too, so the frog is correct.

 

[Sabertooth]

but some here don't accept scripture as the authority, did you miss that?

Scripture tells us what direction to go in (and align our will to). Being saved and having the Holy Spirit facilitates their success.

If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. -Jesus

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Why is this thread not moved to sabbath and law since thats what its predominantly about

 

[Biblicist]

lets leave that stuff...lookie here>>>

6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

I have shown it was ofr kids, and that is that.

Obedience cnetered lives, are elemental.

We can all agree that you have been trying to tell us that these passages speak of the Law etc but they have only been an opinion that you have been unable to support.

With Heb 6:1 the "leaving..." does not imply casting away but where we are to move on but keeping these things in mind. Then we have "leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ" where 'elementary' is from the Greek 'arche' which can be better translated as 'beginning', the initial things or principles about the Christ; these are our foundations and never something that we should ever consider abandoning.

So you are right in that "Obedience centered lives, are elemental" or foundational truths which we are to build our faith on and walk within.

 

[Biblicist]

Even Warren Wiersbe calls stoicheion the a.b.c.'s, and the context totally fits too, so the frog is correct.

You might need to supply a paragraph or two of his material as I would say that when someone refers to anything as being the 'A.B.C's' that they are trying to say that they must never be discarded or ignored.

 

[Frogster]

We can all agree that you have been trying to tell us that these passages speak of the Law etc but they have only been an opinion that you have been unable to support.
With Heb 6:1 the "leaving..." does not imply casting away but where we are to move on but keeping these things in mind. Then we have "leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ" where 'elementary' is from the Greek 'arche' which can be better translated as 'beginning', the initial things or principles about the Christ; these are our foundations and never something that we should ever consider abandoning.

So you are right in that "Obedience centered lives, are elemental" or foundational truths which we are to build our faith on and walk within.

You might need to supply a paragraph or two of his material as I would say that when someone refers to anything as being the 'A.B.C's' that they are trying to say that they must never be discarded or ignored.

Again, growing, moving on, leaving, what does that mean to you?

Do Christians stay as children, or do they become sons, no longer under a manager?

I personally do not need a pedagogue, as per chapter 3.

RED above, you don't think gal 4:3 is about law? Really, then what else is it about.

I await.