Deceive the elect? Input on the Greek ...

[~Anastasia~]

Hi all.

I would like to get input on the statement Jesus made in Matt 24:24

Matthew 24:24King James Version (KJV)

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

What is the exact meaning in the original grammar? Is there reason to translate this in such a way as to imply that the "elect" cannot possibly be deceived?

Thanks for any input.

 

[Biblicist]

For a quick answer, if you consider the 'elect' to be those people who have embraced the Gospel which God chose to implement maybe even before Creation itself, then as we are a part of God's plan where he elected to instigate (elect) a people (not so much specific individuals) who would respond to the Gospel call, then sadly some will certainly fall for the false 'signs and wonders' in the last years. For those who believe in once-saved-always-saved then this verse demands that it be approached in a rather creative way.

We should keep in mind that these false 'signs and wonders' are a unique category which goes beyond the Manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11) and with the 8 Congregational Offices/functions (1Cor 12:28) or for that matter with the five roles found in Eph 4 and with Rom 12.

 

[~Anastasia~]

For a quick answer, if you consider the 'elect' to be those people who have embraced the Gospel which God chose to implement maybe even before Creation itself, then as we are a part of God's plan where he elected to instigate (elect) a people (not so much specific individuals) who would respond to the Gospel call, then sadly some will certainly fall for the false 'signs and wonders' in the last years. For those who believe in once-saved-always-saved then this verse demands that it be approached in a rather creative way.

We should keep in mind that these false 'signs and wonders' are a unique category which goes beyond the Manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11) and with the 8 Congregational Offices/functions (1Cor 12:28) or for that matter with the five roles found in Eph 4 and with Rom 12.

Thanks for the reply.

But for the purposes of a discussion (outside CF) I am needing specific input on the Greek.

 

[Messy]

Matthew 24:24 Greek Text Analysis

2 Peter 1
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks, Messy.

I usually use Mounce. I actually know a bit of this vocabulary, but I'm not sure of the reasons some words were translated this way, and there are some I'm not familiar with. To put it simply, I'm trying to learn Greek, and it's read in my Church all the time. But I'm far from being able to answer my question really.

I appreciate the post.

And such a cute gif!

 

[hedrick]

Hi all.

I would like to get input on the statement Jesus made in Matt 24:24

Matthew 24:24King James Version (KJV)

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

What is the exact meaning in the original grammar? Is there reason to translate this in such a way as to imply that the "elect" cannot possibly be deceived?

Thanks for any input.

Presumably "if possible" is there because the elect shouldn't be deceivable. Hence it's reasonable to read this as basically a kind of hyperbole. Their deceit is so bad that it would affect even the elect, if that was actually possible. I would assume that the subjunctive translation "if it were possible" in KJV reflects this understanding.

Calvin's commentary says that the elect can't be deceived. He translates "For false Christs and false prophets shall arise, and shall perform great signs and wonders, so that even the elect (if it were possible) will be led into error." (though this is of course a translation from his Latin into English).

Note that Mark has the same wording.

 

[sdowney717]

Presumably "if possible" is there because the elect shouldn't be deceivable. Hence it's reasonable to read this as basically a kind of hyperbole. Their deceit is so bad that it would affect even the elect, if that was actually possible. I would assume that the subjunctive translation "if it were possible" in KJV reflects this understanding.

Calvin's commentary says that the elect can't be deceived. He translates "For false Christs and false prophets shall arise, and shall perform great signs and wonders, so that even the elect (if it were possible) will be led into error." (though this is of course a translation from his Latin into English).

Note that Mark has the same wording.

It is an emphasis on how powerful the deception of Satan will be in that time on the earth. Powerful enough to shake even the elect, so Christ is saying be on your guard, watch out!, I mean we all can have doubts, but God will preserve His elect.

2 Thess 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[MKJ]

It seems to me that understanding this will really depend a lot on what you understand "the elect" to mean.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

It seems to me that understanding this will really depend a lot on what you understand "the elect" to mean.

I agree with MKJ here. I don't have any input, though.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It seems to me that understanding this will really depend a lot on what you understand "the elect" to mean.

This is also true.

So far, it seems to me to be a case of theology driving translation? Please forgive me, and correction is welcome if I am wrong on that count.

Which might be a more interesting observation than what I originally sought.

Thanks everyone. I'm still looking for input, particularly if there is reason to see this in the original text and the translation is NOT theology driven.

 

[hedrick]

It seems to me that understanding this will really depend a lot on what you understand "the elect" to mean.

The term (at least in English) occurs in the Gospels only in this passage. In Mark, here are the three occurrences:

And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut short those days.

False messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

The elect do look like those he chose, who will be saved.

Most commentaries acknowledge in the OT and several of the Gospels a concept of election. It's not purely Calvinist, both because there's no sign of being elected for reprobation and because there are signs elsewhere that we have choice as well. But still, election is pretty clearly there throughout the Bible.

So my understanding of Mat 24:24 is that the elect won't be deceived. I don't think this depends upon theology, but upon the way that term elect is used by the near context of this passage, and the presence of "if possible."

 

[~Anastasia~]

The term (at least in English) occurs in the Gospels only in this passage. In Mark, here are the three occurrences:



The elect do look like those he chose, who will be saved.

Most commentaries acknowledge in the OT and several of the Gospels a concept of election. It's not purely Calvinist, both because there's no sign of being elected for reprobation and because there are signs elsewhere that we have choice as well. But still, election is pretty clearly there throughout the Bible.

So my understanding of Mat 24:24 is that the elect won't be deceived. I don't think this depends upon theology, but upon the way that term elect is used by the near context of this passage, and the presence of "if possible."

I think it's the choice of "if possible" and those reasons that the answer might hinge upon.

Thank you.

 

[Biblicist]

I hope that the following lexical entries will help but I agree with MKJ in that the question is not so much lexical but theological.

Taken from BibleWorks 9 -

Friberg Lexicon:

8593 ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν (1) generally, of a quality of persons or things choice, select, excellent (1P 2.4, 6); (2) in the Gospels of those who respond positively to the privileges of God's grace (MT 22.14) and place trust in him (substantivally in LU 18.7); (3) of the basis of salvation in God's calling people to belong to himself elect, chosen (CO 3.12); substantivally, of the community of believers elect (MT 24.24); (4) substantivally, of the Messiah the Chosen One (LU 23.35)

Louw-Nida Lexicon:

30.93 ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν ; ἐκλογή, ῆς f: (derivatives of ἐκλέγομαι and ἐκλογή 'to choose, choice,' 30.92) that which has been chosen - 'chosen.' ἐκλεκτός: ὑμεῖς δὲ γένος ἐκλεκτόν 'you are the chosen race' 1 Pe 2.9; διὰ τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς οὓς ἐξελέξατο ἐκολόβωσεν τὰς ἡμέρας 'for the sake of his chosen people whom he chose, he has reduced those days' Mk 13.20. ἐκλογή: ὃ ἐπιζητεῖ Ἰσραήλ, τοῦτο οὐκ ἐπέτυχεν, ἡ δὲ ἐκλογὴ ἐπέτυχεν 'what Israel sought so eagerly it did not gain, but those whom he chose did' Ro 11.7.

LSJ Lexicon (Abridged):
13367 ἐκλεκτός
ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν, (ἐκλέγ&#969 picked out, select, Thuc., Plat., etc.
II. οἱ ἐκλεκτοί, the elect, N.T.

VGNT Lexicon:

1277 ἐκλεκτός [pg 196]
ἐκλεκτός.
In P Rein 439 (A.D. 102) a “choice” or “beautiful” lodging which is being let is described as ἐκλεκτὸν ἀντρῶνα (l. ἀνδρῶν&#945. For the distinctive Biblical use of the word, cf. farm-accounts—P Fay 1023, al. (c. A.D. 105) where ἐγλεκ(το&#8055 is applied to baskets “‘selected,’ i.e. of a better quality than the rest” (Edd.), and OGIS 4993 (ii/A.D.) τῶν ἐκλεκτῶν ἐν Ῥώμῃ δικαστῶν, with which Dittenberger compares ib. 56710 (ii/A.D.) ἐπίλεκτον κριτήν, the iudex selectus of the Latin inscriptions. The Avircius epitaph—late ii/A.D.—from MS. of Acta Sanctorum has ἐκλεκτῆς πόλεως ὁ πολείτης τοῦτ᾽ ἐποίησα. See also BGU II. 60318 (c. A.D. 167) ἐλαίας ἐγλεκτῆς.

Gingrich Lexicon:
2018 ἐκλεκτός
ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν chosen, select Mt 22:14; 24:22, 24, 31; Lk 18:7; 23:35; Col 3:12; 1 Ti 5:21; 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 2:9; 2 J 1, 13. Choice 1 Pt 2:4 , 6; ὁ ἐ. ἐν κυρίῳ the outstanding Christian Ro 16:13. [pg 60]​

 

[Messy]

I don't know anything about Greek, but I believe the elect can be deceived even if it's just for a while by the false signs and wonders nowadays like angel feathers. You see real genuine christians with good fruit believing it. I think though if you're elected you'll see it eventually. There's that text that we will all be mature, not tossed to and fro by false teaching.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't know anything about Greek, but I believe the elect can be deceived even if it's just for a while by the false signs and wonders nowadays like angel feathers. You see real genuine christians with good fruit believing it. I think though if you're elected you'll see it eventually. There's that text that we will all be mature, not tossed to and fro by false teaching.

the elect will not fall away from Christ to follow a false christ.
They can be mistaken or confused but they will not depart the faith because God has done His work in them giving them eternal life and they will never perish as will the unbelieving wicked who do follow false christs.

The elect have to learn things, and the Holy Spirit is their teacher and guide into all truth. He will keep them, preserve them since he has called and sanctified them wholly.
Christ's promise is He will teach us all things we need to know.


1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, sanctified[a] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[d] 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Let Truth Abide in You

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will[e] abide in Him.

 

[MKJ]

The term (at least in English) occurs in the Gospels only in this passage. In Mark, here are the three occurrences:



The elect do look like those he chose, who will be saved.

Most commentaries acknowledge in the OT and several of the Gospels a concept of election. It's not purely Calvinist, both because there's no sign of being elected for reprobation and because there are signs elsewhere that we have choice as well. But still, election is pretty clearly there throughout the Bible.

So my understanding of Mat 24:24 is that the elect won't be deceived. I don't think this depends upon theology, but upon the way that term elect is used by the near context of this passage, and the presence of "if possible."

Yes, but are we supposed to be imagining the elect from the perspective of the end of time, or something else? Is it like saying everyone who found a winning ticket will be a winner?

I thin whatever the grammar, how we understand the idea of choice and freedom is going to make us take this passage one way or another.

And as some have pointed out, does it mean to say that the elect aren't deceived in the end, or they can't be deceived at all?

 

[hedrick]

Yes, but are we supposed to be imagining the elect from the perspective of the end of time, or something else? Is it like saying everyone who found a winning ticket will be a winner?

I thin whatever the grammar, how we understand the idea of choice and freedom is going to make us take this passage one way or another.

And as some have pointed out, does it mean to say that the elect aren't deceived in the end, or they can't be deceived at all?

I think you're trying to get more specifics out of the passage than are there. Election isn't the subject of the passage. It comes up tangentially. We can tell that the author believes in some kind of election, and doubts that elect can actually be deceived. But beyond that I think we're reading things into the text.

The passage is about fake Christs, so the deception involved is a significant one. It's hard to see how a follower of a fake Christ could be part of the Kingdom. So this isn't about whether an elect can ever make a mistake. But all the questions about election that occur to us: could an elect follow a fake Christ and then return, etc, are going way beyond what you can expect to get by looking at this passage.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I don't think that passage is about fake Christians...

 

[~Anastasia~]

The passage is about fake Christs ....

I do appreciate everyone's responses.

I did also ask in TAW, since there are likely to be those who speak Greek there. I thought maybe I'd hear from some scholars in here who might answer from that standpoint. I may ask folks at my Church next Sunday, but I think the discussion (offline) will be finished by then.

I got an answer that referred also to a homily of St. John Chrysostom.

For the benefit of anyone interested, since the homily makes it particularly relevant to TT, I think ...

In order to best understand this teaching, one should read Matthew 24.23-26 without isolating verse 24.

In verse 23, it says 'dont believe'. The greek grammar implies not to even entertain the idea. As opposed to saying 'stop believing', which would imply it already has entered your mind. Its a prohibition against even contemplating such a thought.
What verses 24 & 26 are implying is the exact opposite of impossibility. It denotes uncertainty. It may imply improbability but not impossibility.

The entire point the Lord is making is not to allow your curiousity to get the better of you, because once you go to the 'secret places' and witness the false wonders, the probability is not that you cant be decieved but that you will be decieved.

St John Chrysostom explains:

And see how He (Christ) secures them; “Go not forth into the deserts, enter not into the secret chambers.” He did not say, “Go, but do not believe” but, “Go not forth, neither depart toward that place.” For great then will be the deceiving, because that even deceiving miracles are wrought.
3. Having told them how Antichrist comes, as, for instance, that it will be in a place; He saith how Himself also cometh. How then doth He Himself come? “As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.....How then shineth the lightning? It needs not one to talk of it, it needs not a herald, but even to them that sit in houses, and to them in chambers it shows itself in an instant of time throughout the whole world. So shall that coming be, showing itself at once everywhere by reason of the shining forth of His glory

(Homilies on Matthew)

Thanks again, everyone!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi all.

I would like to get input on the statement Jesus made in Matt 24:24

Matthew 24:24King James Version (KJV)

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

What is the exact meaning in the original grammar? Is there reason to translate this in such a way as to imply that the "elect" cannot possibly be deceived?

Thanks for any input.

Okay, you probably already know that the word translated as "elect" is εκλεκτους it is the last word in the verse in Greek (εγερθησονται γαρ ψευδοχριστοι και ψευδοπροφηται και δωσουσιν σημεια μεγαλα και τερατα ωστε πλανησαι ει δυνατον και τους εκλεκτους) its meaning is "chosen or select". In the verse (considering its context) the evident intention is that the elect are only those who will be saved during the tribulation, not all the saved of all generations.

It's possible to read the passage as teaching something about divine election to eternal life (a Calvinistic perspective) but the passage doesn't seem to be discussing that subject and if there is some kind of passing reference to divine-election it isn't given any emphasis in the context. I am inclined to the view expressed here:

If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect - So nearly would their pretended miracles resemble true miracles as to render it difficult to detect the imposture; so much so, that if it were possible they would persuade even true Christians that they were the Messiah. But that was not possible. His real friends would be too firmly established in the belief that he was the Christ to be wholly led away by others. Christians may be sometimes led far astray; they may be in doubt about some great doctrines of religion; they may be perplexed by the cavils and cunning craftiness of those who do not love the truth, but they cannot be entirely deceived and seduced from the Saviour. Our Saviour says that if this “were possible,” it would be done then; but it was not possible. Compare the notes at John 10:28-29.
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