Help with Greek in Matt 24?

[~Anastasia~]

Posted this in TT but I should ask here. Thanks!

Hi all.

I would like to get input on the statement Jesus made in Matt 24:24

Matthew 24:24King James Version (KJV)

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

What is the exact meaning in the original grammar? Is there reason to translate this in such a way as to imply that the "elect" cannot possibly be deceived?

Thanks for any input.

 

[ArmyMatt]

while I don't know the Greek there, I can say it depends on how you define elect. if we are saying elect as all of those that will persevere and will chose to follow Christ, then it is not that they cannot be deceived, but more that they won't be because they are faithful to God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

while I don't know the Greek there, I can say it depends on how you define elect. if we are saying elect as all of those that will persevere and will chose to follow Christ, then it is not that they cannot be deceived, but more that they won't be because they are faithful to God.

That's a similar point to what came up over there.

The whole discussion (off CF) came up because of the question as to whether or not it's possible for Christians to be deceived or wrong about things. (Not only this exact deception.)

Of course, I believe there's certainly a danger that a Christian can be deceived in general. I'm starting to wonder that there seems to be a very large segment of Christianity that doesn't agree with this at all. (At least on the deception part.)

I do believe God has mercy and can protect the simple, or unlearned, or unprepared. He certainly helped me tremendously when I was new in the faith and on my own. But He also directed me to the Church, and eventually led me to find the Orthodox Church. And I have the distinct sense that the more we know, the more we are responsible for, and I wouldn't feel that I should ever presume that God will keep me from any possibility of deception.

But Scripture is often the easiest point to argue from. And I can't figure out if the Greek justifies that translation, or if it's a translation driven by theology.

Thanks so much for your answer.

 

[buzuxi02]

In order to best understand this teaching, one should read Matthew 24.23-26 without isolating verse 24.

In verse 23, it says 'dont believe'. The greek grammar implies not to even entertain the idea. As opposed to saying 'stop believing', which would imply it already has entered your mind. Its a prohibition against even contemplating such a thought.
What verses 24 & 26 are implying is the exact opposite of impossibility. It denotes uncertainty. It may imply improbability but not impossibility.

The entire point the Lord is making is not to allow your curiousity to get the better of you, because once you go to the 'secret places' and witness the false wonders, the probability is not that you cant be decieved but that you will be decieved.

St John Chrysostom explains:

And see how He (Christ) secures them; “Go not forth into the deserts, enter not into the secret chambers.” He did not say, “Go, but do not believe” but, “Go not forth, neither depart toward that place.” For great then will be the deceiving, because that even deceiving miracles are wrought.
3. Having told them how Antichrist comes, as, for instance, that it will be in a place; He saith how Himself also cometh. How then doth He Himself come? “As the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.....How then shineth the lightning? It needs not one to talk of it, it needs not a herald, but even to them that sit in houses, and to them in chambers it shows itself in an instant of time throughout the whole world. So shall that coming be, showing itself at once everywhere by reason of the shining forth of His glory

(Homilies on Matthew)

 

[~Anastasia~]

In order to best understand this teaching, one should read Matthew 24.23-26 without isolating verse 24.

In verse 23, it says 'dont believe'. The greek grammar implies not to even entertain the idea. As opposed to saying 'stop believing', which would imply it already has entered your mind. Its a prohibition against even contemplating such a thought.
What verses 24 & 26 are implying is the exact opposite of impossibility. It denotes uncertainty. It may imply improbability but not impossibility.

The entire point the Lord is making is not to allow your curiousity to get the better of you, because once you go to the 'secret places' and witness the false wonders, the probability is not that you cant be decieved but that you will be decieved.

St John Chrysostom explains:

(Homilies on Matthew)

Thank you so much, buzuxi. I think that is more to the point than trying to isolate particular words (or verses). I think this will be very helpful in the discussion. I really appreciate that.

(Not that I'm overmuch worried about the "end of things" but I would rather properly understand what is written. I appreciate too hearing St. John Chrysostom's teaching on it. Thanks!)