The Problem of Hell

[Timothew]

That's like a Muslim saying "Show me a verse wherein Jesus says 'I am God.'"

Actually, isn't it much more like a Bible Believing Christian saying, "Show me from the Scriptures that what you claim is true"?

I see where the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, I see where it says that those who reject the Son of God will perish, and I see where Jesus says that the way is wide that leads to destruction. But I don't see where the Bible says that bad people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever and ever. If you expect me to believe something contrary to what the Bible specifically says, shouldn't you have solid Biblical Proof?

 

[Albion]

Actually, isn't it much more like a Bible Believing Christian saying, "Show me from the Scriptures that what you claim is true"?

Not at all. What I was referring to was asking whether Scripture supports X or Y, but in the exact words that the questioner has chosen.

Anyone can frame an inquiry in such a way that the Bible will , of course, not have used the exact same wording. This allows the questioner to say that the Bible doesn't support the concept whereas it only proves that it doesn't use the exact same words demanded of it by the questioner.

I see where the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, I see where it says that those who reject the Son of God will perish, and I see where Jesus says that the way is wide that leads to destruction. But I don't see where the Bible says that bad people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever and ever.

So again, you have salted your comment with the word "tormented." Is that your point of contention rather than the "eternity" issue?

If you expect me to believe something contrary to what the Bible specifically says, shouldn't you have solid Biblical Proof?

I don't expect you to believe anything that is contrary to what the Bible says.

 

[Timothew]

Not at all. What I was referring to was asking whether Scripture supports X or Y, but in the exact words that the questioner has chosen.

Anyone can frame an inquiry in such a way that the Bible will , of course, not have used the exact same wording. This allows the questioner to say that the Bible doesn't support the concept whereas it only proves that it doesn't use the exact same words demanded of it by the questioner.



So again, you have salted your comment with the word "tormented." Is that your point of contention rather than the "eternity" issue?


I don't expect you to believe anything that is contrary to what the Bible says.

I'm glad that you don't expect me to believe anything that is contrary to what the Bible says. I will continue to believe that the wicked will perish just as the Bible says, rather than being tormented for an eternity.

 

[Albion]

I'm glad that you don't expect me to believe anything that is contrary to what the Bible says. I will continue to believe that the wicked will perish just as the Bible says, rather than being tormented for an eternity.

So then why did you start this thread?

 

[abysmul]

So then why did you start this thread?

I think he said why in the OP:

I just saw this statement in Wikipedia, and I think it could be put under discussion here on Christian Forums:

Personally, I was not really exposed to anything other than eternal conscious torment in Hell, when I was being raised in church. It really wasn't until coming to these forums that I encountered so many people that questioned that teaching and studied the Bible and came to this different conclusion.

I think discussions that prompt us to really read the Bible, and study what we find in it, to be a good thing.

I also think that taking the status quo and comparing it to what the Bible says is a positive thing.

 

[Albion]

I think he said why in the OP:

"I just saw this statement in Wikipedia, and I think it could be put under discussion here on Christian Forums"

And my point was that, if he's going to take the stance that he did in his last post, saying in effect, "I'm going to believe whatever I choose to believe, and I'm going to consider that to be what the Bible says, period" there isn't much room for discussion.

Or, I could put it in a simpler way. For there to be a discussion, it takes two to tango. Otherwise we have oration, not discussion.

 

[abysmul]

Well, that could be said for most threads in theses forums, how many people here change their minds about their denomination's doctrines or from what they have been taught from childhood? One can discuss differences in opinion, theology, etc., without expecting someone else to change their mind.

All that, and 40 some posts in the thread by multiple people doesn't sound like oration.

 

[Albion]

Well, that could be said for most threads in theses forums,

I don't think so.

how many people here change their minds about their denomination's doctrines or from what they have been taught from childhood? One can discuss differences in opinion, theology, etc., without expecting someone else to change their mind.

That isn't even the point. Ventilating the issue and the evidence would be sufficient, but even that was shut off--which is the more curious, considering that he started the thread asking for a discussion.

My attempt to get even a clarification as to whether his issue is the eternal nature of hell or, rather, the "torment" aspect of it apparently wasn't worth a reply.

 

[abysmul]

I don't think so.


That isn't even the point. Ventilating the issue and the evidence would be sufficient, but even that was shut off--which is the more curious, considering that he started the thread asking for a discussion.

My attempt to get even a clarification as to whether his issue is the eternal nature of hell or, rather, the "torment" aspect of it apparently wasn't worth a reply.

I'm curious, what's the chances of your beliefs on Hell changing? Have they changed in any measurable amount during your time here on the forums?

 

[Timothew]

So then why did you start this thread?

For discussion about what the Bible says about this topic, of course.
What the Bible has to say is very important to me, and others here. Discussion is good. Saying that I should believe in ECT because a lot of other people people do is really not very effective.

 

[Albion]

I'm curious, what's the chances of your beliefs on Hell changing?

I'm certainly willing to hear anyone's arguments and evidence and talk about which of them are more persuasive than others--and why.

That's a lot different, IMO, from announcing that whatever I have concluded at this time is what the Bible says, period, and it's too bad everyone else is so wrong...but I still want the rest of you to show me how faulty your alternate views are by taking the time to write them out so I can harrumph them by saying "Nope. The Bible means what I told you already; there's no discussion about that."

 

[Awaken4Christ]

The Jewish Encyclopedia is influenced by the talmud is it not? Think about this. The very Pharisees who helped crucify Jesus, continued in power some time and most likely wrote in the talmud. Do you know what the talmud says about Jesus in it? You just might be using evidence based on those who served satan.

Also, I would implore you to study the controversy behind the Scofield Bible and Talmud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA-JCLYeDro

There is a reason people want to abide by "Sola Scriptura". It is because nothing stands close to inspired scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

I assume you are talking to me.

The Jewish Encyclopedia is influenced by the talmud is it not? Think about this. The very Pharisees who helped crucify Jesus, continued in power some time and most likely wrote in the talmud. Do you know what the talmud says about Jesus in it? You just might be using evidence based on those who served satan.

Yes I know what the Talmud says about Jesus. That is irrelevant to their belief in hell. What I quoted concerned their belief in hell not their view of Jesus.

Also, I would implore you to study the controversy behind the Scofield Bible and Talmud

[Video omitted]

Irrelevant. Did the Jews at the time of Jesus believe in hell, Jesus did not contradict that belief.

There is a reason people want to abide by "Sola Scriptura". It is because nothing stands close to inspired scripture.

So what? Where did I ever say otherwise? Note I quoted several scripture in support of my post.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct.

For the full discussion see my [post=66798326]post #4[/post] this thread.

 

[Timothew]

And my point was that, if he's going to take the stance that he did in his last post, saying in effect, "I'm going to believe whatever I choose to believe, and I'm going to consider that to be what the Bible says, period" there isn't much room for discussion.

Or, I could put it in a simpler way. For there to be a discussion, it takes two to tango. Otherwise we have oration, not discussion.

Discuss away! Go ahead, I'm listening. Make a solid case for eternal torment from the Bible. I want you to, because if you make a solid case, then we can all learn from you, and we will all be unified in the truth.

Show me how the Bible says that the wicked will be in torment in hell, and show me how I am misunderstanding the verses that say the wicked will perish and be destroyed.

But I want it to be solid proof from the Bible, not speculation.
Something like "Jesus said in Luke 13:3 unless you repent, you will likewise perish". See how clear that is? Those that do not repent will perish. Now you show me a similar passage that says "unless you repent, you will experience eternal conscious torment". I know, it is unfair of me to expect that exact quote. That is an unreasonable standard, since the Bible doesn't ever say that. So show me something else. Anything that proves your point. But it must prove your point, or why bother? And you also have to go through each of the verses in the Bible that specifically say the unrepentant will perish. And each of the verses in the Bible that say the unrepentant will be destroyed. And each of the verses that say they will be no more. Not all at once like "None of them say that, so there!". Deal with each one, one by one. Since I already mentioned Luke 13:3, tell me why that doesn't mean "unless you repent, you will perish".

And you can keep your bad attitude towards me to yourself. I know that you hate it that I dare to disagree with the infernal doctrine. You don't have to show it in your posts. Stick to the Biblical Proof. If the doctrine of ECT is true, the Bible will support it.

Think about this:
"Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't going away."

 

[Timothew]

I especially don't know why, if eternal torment is true, that the Bible would EVER use a phrase like "no more" to describe the end fate of unbelievers.

You have a lot of good points, but I want to focus on this one. I don't know why the Bible would ever say "the wicked shall be no more" if their fate is eternal torment. Perhaps someone who believes in ECT can explain why the Bible would say that the wicked are "no more", when the Bible really means "the wicked will remain forever in hell". Surely they can at least see why this is troubling for us, why this makes us believe that the wicked will be no more.

 

[he-man]

Yes I know what the Talmud says about Jesus. That is irrelevant to their belief in hell. What I quoted concerned their belief in hell not their view of Jesus.

So why do you ignore all the other Talmud teachings and only pick one out which is also a display of their irrelevant unbelief?

Irrelevant. Did the Jews at the time of Jesus believe in hell, Jesus did not contradict that belief.

As a matter of fact he did correct that belief with 2Th 1:9 he said" they will pay the punishment of everlasting destruction".

So what? Where did I ever say otherwise? Note I quoted several scripture in support of my post.

Then why don't you stick to scripture and throw your Talmud in the trash?

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol.

That would hardly qualify as eternal punishment, passing through the fire means they were burnt to a crisp forever. 2Ch 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Where do you see anything about punishment?
H1516 גּי גּיא gah'ee, Probably (by transmutation) from the same root as H1466 (abbreviated); a gorge (from its lofty sides; hence narrow, but not a gully or winter torrent): - valley.
H1466 גּוה gêvâh The same as H1465; exaltation; (figuratively) arrogance: - lifting up, pride.

"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46" "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50 “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6 “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

You contradict yourself it says, "drowned in the depth of the sea and if he had not been born" which means nonexistence, not torture forever.
The passage Jesus quotes “explicitly says that it is corpses whose ‘worm will not die’.”

“Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” ... In both texts the word translated as “worm” literally means “grub” or “maggot.”
“The idiom communicates the shame of having one’s corpse unburied, and arguably the irresistible and complete consumption of those corpses by maggots.”
Isaiah 66:24 nor Mark 9:48 say that the worm will “never” die.

The Hebrew language afforded Isaiah the ability to communicate “never,” had he intended to do so. In Judges 2:1 the angel of the Lord says, “I will never break My covenant with you.” Nathan prophecies against David in 2 Samuel 12:10, quoting God as saying, “The sword shall never depart from your house.” In Psalm 15:5 David sings, “He who does these things will never be shaken.” In each case, the word “not” from Isaiah 66:24, לֹא (lo’), is used in conjunction with the Hebrew word עוֹלָם (`owlam), meaning “everlasting.” In other words, “will not ever.” Isaiah 66:24 does not contain `owlam.

Isaiah 66:24 as saying the worm will “never” die. In Matthew 7:23 Jesus says, “I never knew you.” Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:8 that “love never fails.” Hebrews 10:1Each occurrence of “never” in those verses translates the Greek word οὐδέποτε (oudepote), a compound word meaning “not at any time.” This is lacking in both the LXX rendition of Isaiah 66:24, and in Jesus’ citation thereof in Mark 9:48; they simply use the word οὐ (ou) meaning “not.” Isaiah, quoted by Jesus, simply says the worm will not die.
Their Worm Does Not Die: Annihilation and Mark 9:48 | Rethinking HellRethinking Hell

These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/indent]

You are exacerbating what it actually says when all it implies is that your fate will be a punishment of death eternally.
"When the statement is recorded in Scripture, that someone or something “will not die,” a specific context is in view; no life is promised beyond that context. And in Isaiah 66:24, that context is the consumption of a corpse. Their worm, it is promised, will not die in that context, will not be prevented by death from consuming its host. This is an assurance that the abhorrent process of decay will continue unabated until the corpse is completely consumed; the worm is promised no life beyond that."

But Deuteronomy 28:26 and Jeremiah 7:33 say that “no one will frighten them away,” communicating that the shame of those wicked will be irresistible. Scavenging beasts and birds will not be prevented from fully consuming the corpses of the wicked. This doesn’t bring an end to their shame; it makes it permanent.

That’s what is promised by Isaiah 66:24, and why the wicked “will be loathsome to all mankind.”13 Not because immortal scavengers will forever gnaw upon living bodies, but because maggots will not be prevented by death from fully consuming dead ones. Not because their shame is prolonged by being perpetually consumed, but because their shame is made permanent and everlasting by being fully consumed.
Their Worm Does Not Die: Annihilation and Mark 9:48 | Rethinking HellRethinking Hell

 

[James Is Back]

An article on Hell:

THE REALITY OF HELL by Bob L. Ross
​

The Bible was written in three languages: Hebrew (Old Testament), Chaldee (portion of Daniel), and Greek (New Testament). The Bible that we have today is a translation of the Hebrew, Chaldee, and Greek writings into our language. There are many translations of the Bible, the most popular being the King James Version, which you probably own.
The Word “Hell” in the King James Version
There are four words in the KJV translated “Hell.” Of these four words, only one of them is used in the Old Testament. That word is the Hebrew word “Sheol.”

In the New Testament, the three words translated “Hell” are “Hades,” “Gehenna,” and “Tatarus,” all Greek words.
What Do These Words Mean?
1. The Hebrew word “Sheol” is translated:
“Hell”—31 times, as in Psalm 9:17: “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
“Grave”—31 times, as in Ecclesiastes 9:10: “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”
“Pit”—3 times, as in Job 17:16: “They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.”
But actually, the Hebrew word “Sheol” does not mean either “Hell,” “grave,” of “pit.” It means “the unseen world” or “the place of departed spirits.” Notice how it is defined:
Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary says that “Sheol” is “the world of the dead.”
Young’s Analytical Concordance says that “Sheol” is “the unseen state.”
Smith’s Bible Dictionary says that “Sheol” is “always the abode of departed spirits.”
Fausset’s Bible Dictionary and Encyclopedia says that “Sheol” is “the receptacle of the dead.”
So Sheol does not strictly refer to Hell, but to the place of departed spirits, irrespective of whether saved or lost. Sheol is simply a term meaning “the state of the dead in general, without any restriction of happiness or misery” (Smith). In many instances where the word is used, however, the reference is clearly to that compartment of Sheol where the wicked are punished. For example, Notice Psalm 9:17:
“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
2. “Hades” is the Greek word in the New Testament which corresponds to “Sheol” and is translated as follows:
“Hell”—10 times; Matthew 11:23: “And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shall be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.”

“Grave”—1 time: “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” (I Cor 15:55).
But “Hades,” like Sheol, does not strictly or exclusively refer to Hell. “Hades” is the corresponding Greek word to the Hebrew word “Sheol,” and both have the same meaning.
Strong’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament says that “Hades” is “the place [state] of departed souls.”
Young’s Concordance: “the unseen world.”
A.T. Robertson, world-renowned Greek scholar: “Hades is technically the unseen world, the Hebrew Sheol, the land of the departed” (Word Pictures in the N.T.).
The reader is urged to read Luke 16:19-31, where a perfect illustration of Sheol (Hades) is given. This passage draws back the curtain and lets us have a look into both sides of “the land of the departed.”
3. “Gehenna” or “the Gehenna of Fire,” is the Greek word that strictly means Hell. It is never translated by any word but “Hell,” and eleven of the twelve times the word is used, it is used by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Here are a list of the passages in which the word “Gehenna” appears: Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; and James 3:6.
The word “Gehenna” is of Hebrew origin derived from “valley” and “Hinnom.” “Gehenna is the valley of Hinnom. “Gehenna is the valley of Hinnom where the fire burned continually” (A.T. Robertson).
The Valley of Hinnom was a place near Jerusalem where Ahaz introduced the worship of fire gods, the sun, Baal and Moloch. The Jews under ungodly Manasseh offered their children as burnt offerings in this idolatrous worship (Jer 7:31). This cruel worship was finally abolished, and later Josiah made the place a receptacle of dead carcasses and the bodies of malefactors (criminals), in which worms were continually gendering. A perpetual fire was kept to consume the putrifying matter. The place was still in existence at the time of Christ, and the Savior illustrated somewhat the condition in eternity, in “the Gehenna of fire,” by references to this valley.

The Lord Jesus referred to Hell as the “Gehenna of fire,” into which “both body and soul” will be cast. He said that it is “unquenchable fire” and that “the worm [man] dieth not” in the flame, just as the three Hebrew children of Daniel’s day did not die when cast into the fiery furnace (Dan 3).
Hell is no myth as infidels, Russellites, Universalists, and Modernists would have you believe. Christ did not warn of Hell simply to scare men. He warned of Hell because it is reality!
4. “Tartarus,” the fourth word translated “hell,” is used once in the New Testament (II Peter 2:4).
Strong’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament says that “Tartarus” is “the deepest abyss of Hades,” and that the word means “to incarcerate [imprison] in eternal torment.”
A.T. Robertson: “The dark and doleful abode of the wicked dead like the Gehenna of the Jews.”
Fausset’s Dictionary: “The deep, or abyss, or bottomless pit.”
So this word strictly refers to the place where the unsaved are confined in Divine judgment.

Fire in Hell?
​

Leaving the passages that contain these four words translated “Hell,” notice some passages which teach of Hell in words that even a child can understand.


Matthew 13:49, 50: “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Revelation 9:2: “And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.”

Revelation 14:10,11: “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture in the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Rev. 20:10: “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Revelation 19:20: “And the beast was take, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.” (Also Rev 20:14, 15, 21:8; Matt 5:22, 18:8, 25:41; II Peter 3:7; Jude 7).

Everlasting Fire
​

Matthew 18:8: “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee: cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.”

The Greek word for “everlasting” is aionios. The word means ageless-without beginning, without ending, or both. It is used in Romans 16:26 of God :”the everlasting [aionios] God.” This use of the word should clearly show us the meaning of the word “everlasting.”
The Greek scholar A.T. Robertson says of the word: “It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language.”
The very same word (aionios) is used to describe the future life of the righteous and the future punishment of the wicked in Matthew 25:46: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” If punishment of the wicked is limited, we may likewise limit the life of the righteous! But such cannot be done.

For Ever And Ever
​

This phrase, “for ever and ever” (eis tous aionas aionon), occurs 20 times in the New Testament:
of God-16 times;
of saints’ future blessedness-1 time;
of punishment of the wicked and Satan– 3 times

Death
​

Death is never an annihilation, or a ceasing to exist. It is always a separation.
The second death is the final and eternal separation of the unsaved in the “lake of fire” (Rev 20:11-15). That the second death is not annihilation see Revelation 19:20 and 20:10.
Neither does “destruction” mean annihilation. Something can be destroyed without being annihilated. There is much destruction of property, goods, buildings, etc., in war, but such things are not annihilated. The unsaved still exist and will exist for all eternity in the “lake of fire.” They experience “destruction” of peace, joy, and hope.

 

[Timothew]

Death is never an annihilation, or a ceasing to exist. It is always a separation.

This is rubbish.

The Bible never once says that "death is a separation", much less "always a separation". Why do people who believe the traditional view feel entitled to make wild claims without backing them up with scripture?

 

[he-man]

I do not disagree. I think a lot of people are not taught to question what they are "told"... from their family, from their church. They are not taught to question everything and use their scripture to do so.

Mt 13:4 the fowls did come and devour them;..John 15 He takes away and they are burned up;...Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. (2) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. (3)

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. (4) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

(5) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned up.

It is indeed a separation not just a temporary one, but an everlasting one.

 

[Timothew]

Mt 13:4 the fowls did come and devour them;..John 15 He takes away and they are burned up;...Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. (2) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. (3)

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. (4) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

(5) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned up.

It is indeed a separation not just a temporary one, but an everlasting one.

Indeed. The "separation" is actually destruction. As the Bible says "they are burned up".