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The Problem of Hell

Timothew

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I just saw this statement in Wikipedia, and I think it could be put under discussion here on Christian Forums:
The problem of Hell is an ethical problem in religion where the notion of Hell as existing for the punishment of souls is regarded as inconsistent with notion of an omnibenevolent God.​
Problem of Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem only arises when the punishment is assumed to be eternal conscious torment, as the wiki states here:
As with other Jewish writings of the Second Temple period, the New Testament text distinguishes two words, both translated "Hell" in older English Bibles: Hades, "the grave", and Gehenna where God "can destroy both body and soul". A minority of Christians read this to mean that neither Hades nor Gehenna are eternal. Christian mortalism is the doctrine that all men and women, including Christians, must die, and do not continue and are not conscious after death. Therefore annihilationism includes the doctrine that "the wicked" are also destroyed rather than tormented forever in traditional "Hell" or the lake of fire. Christian mortalism and annihilationism are directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life at the second coming of Christ and resurrection of the dead. Annihilationism may assert that God will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked (even if the souls of the wicked would be immortal otherwise), leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Conditional immortality asserts that souls are naturally mortal and those who reject Christ are separated from the sustaining power of God, thus dying off on their own.​

One key issue to this is the fact that the Bible never once says that wicked people go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment. However, the Bible does say many times that only those who trust in Jesus Christ will receive eternal life and those who reject him will not receive eternal life. They will perish. One verse out of many that say this is the most familiar verse in the Bible, John 3:16.
 

Der Alte

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I just saw this statement in Wikipedia, and I think it could be put under discussion here on Christian Forums:
The problem of Hell is an ethical problem in religion where the notion of Hell as existing for the punishment of souls is regarded as inconsistent with notion of an omnibenevolent God.​
Problem of Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem only arises when the punishment is assumed to be eternal conscious torment, as the wiki states here:
As with other Jewish writings of the Second Temple period, the New Testament text distinguishes two words, both translated "Hell" in older English Bibles: Hades, "the grave", and Gehenna where God "can destroy both body and soul". A minority of Christians read this to mean that neither Hades nor Gehenna are eternal. Christian mortalism is the doctrine that all men and women, including Christians, must die, and do not continue and are not conscious after death. Therefore annihilationism includes the doctrine that "the wicked" are also destroyed rather than tormented forever in traditional "Hell" or the lake of fire. Christian mortalism and annihilationism are directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life at the second coming of Christ and resurrection of the dead. Annihilationism may assert that God will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked (even if the souls of the wicked would be immortal otherwise), leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Conditional immortality asserts that souls are naturally mortal and those who reject Christ are separated from the sustaining power of God, thus dying off on their own.​

One key issue to this is the fact that the Bible never once says that wicked people go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment. However, the Bible does say many times that only those who trust in Jesus Christ will receive eternal life and those who reject him will not receive eternal life. They will perish. One verse out of many that say this is the most familiar verse in the Bible, John 3:16.

Wiki, really? Wiki is about as reliable as the graffiti scribbled on public facility walls. Every article has a number of [edit] links. Anyone can add to, delete or change anything, at any time without review or controls.
 
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Der Alte

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I was raised in a Christian family, and in a community that is overwhelmingly Christian. Over the past decade or so I've seen more and more people begin to look at and study the concept of eternal torment and question it.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
 
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he-man

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Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/indent]
Mt 13:4 the fowls did come and devour them;..John 15 He takes away and they are burned up;...Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. ;
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. (2) Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. (3) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. (4) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. (5) "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. (6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned up.
 
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CherubRam

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I was raised in a Christian family, and in a community that is overwhelmingly Christian. Over the past decade or so I've seen more and more people begin to look at and study the concept of eternal torment and question it.

And they should question it. Hell has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Hell is a Pagan belief, it comes from Paganism. The word Sheol translates as grave, not Hell. The word Gehenna was a parable that Christ spoke to the masses. It was used to mean destruction.
 
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abysmul

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And they should question it. Hell has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Hell is a Pagan belief, it comes from Paganism. The word Sheol translates as grave, not Hell. The word Gehenna was a parable that Christ spoke to the masses. It was used to mean destruction.

I do not disagree. I think a lot of people are not taught to question what they are "told"... from their family, from their church. They are not taught to question everything and use their scripture to do so.
 
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Timothew

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Wiki, really? Wiki is about as reliable as the graffiti scribbled on public facility walls. Every article has a number of [edit] links. Anyone can add to, delete or change anything, at any time without review or controls.

Wiki was merely the impetus for this discuss. Wiki proves nothing, what matters is what the Bible says. And the Bible says that transgressors will be altogether destroyed. Whine about wikipedia all you want, but you cannot change what the Bible says.

How would you define "The Problem of Hell" if you don't like how the wiki author stated it?
 
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Timothew

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The rich man asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?"
If I do not have eternal life, what must it do to inherit eternal life?
It doesn't make any sense to ask "Since I already have eternal life, what must I do to get it?"

Only those who inherit eternal life will have eternal life. Those who do not have eternal life do not have eternal life. They will perish. This is painfully obvious.
 
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abysmul

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The rich man asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?"
If I do not have eternal life, what must it do to inherit eternal life?
It doesn't make any sense to ask "Since I already have eternal life, what must I do to get it?"

Only those who inherit eternal life will have eternal life. Those who do not have eternal life do not have eternal life. They will perish. This is painfully obvious.

"What must I do to escape eternal torture?"
That has a different ring to it, doesn't it?
 
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Der Alte

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And they should question it. Hell has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Hell is a Pagan belief, it comes from Paganism. The word Sheol translates as grave, not Hell. The word Gehenna was a parable that Christ spoke to the masses. It was used to mean destruction.

Sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring the historical evidence I provided from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud does not disprove that evidence. That is the real Jewish history not the made up revisionist history posted here.
 
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Der Alte

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And they should question it. Hell has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Hell is a Pagan belief, it comes from Paganism. The word Sheol translates as grave, not Hell. The word Gehenna was a parable that Christ spoke to the masses. It was used to mean destruction.

Ignores the historical Jewish evidence in my [post=66798326]post #4[/post], above.
 
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Der Alte

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IMO hell lasts for an aeon/olam, not for eternity.

I do not disagree. I think a lot of people are not taught to question what they are "told"... from their family, from their church. They are not taught to question everything and use their scripture to do so.

Ignores the historical Jewish evidence in my [post=66798326]post #4[/post], above.
 
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Timothew

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John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

People either believe and have eternal life or reject and do not have eternal life.
Having eternal life in hell being tortured alive is not given as one of the options.
 
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CherubRam

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I do not disagree. I think a lot of people are not taught to question what they are "told"... from their family, from their church. They are not taught to question everything and use their scripture to do so.

It is wise to ask question, and it is foolish not to ask questions. It is a sign of evil that a person would complain, that some one should have questions.
 
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Anto9us

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"I looked for Hell all over the globe I have on my desk and the closest I could come to finding it was Detroit. "

I was stationed for four years in Del Rio, Texas.

Hell - Hades - Gehenna - Sheol - Tartarus - Torments...

I survived my commission there - as if by fire...
 
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Timothew

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"I looked for Hell all over the globe I have on my desk and the closest I could come to finding it was Detroit. "

I was stationed for four years in Del Rio, Texas.

Hell - Hades - Gehenna - Sheol - Tartarus - Torments...

I survived my commission there - as if by fire...

A Baptism by fire.
 
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ImaginaryDay

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John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

People either believe and have eternal life or reject and do not have eternal life.
Having eternal life in hell being tortured alive is not given as one of the options.

If this is true, it doesn't leave Hell as much of a "problem", does it? Eternal life with the Lord, or...... nothing. Win either way.
 
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