Allegiance to a flag rather than God.

[dragongunner]

now lets think about that a little deeper ..what if that pledge of allegiance binds you to disobeying God ..like submitting to a mark in order to buy or sell ?

and on the other thought line in the thread..one does not have to pledge allegiance in order to love ones neighbor. we are called to love our Enemy also ..... food for thought

What part of pledge would be the part that says to disobey God….? If they were to change the pledge to mean disobeying God do you really think christians would do it or be for it? We are talking about the pledge as it is now. not what it could be if it changes for some reason….what if someone changes the bible to say we should bow to satan ? See the argument.

You are correct no one has to take the pledge, and no one is forced too. I did when I was in school, but no school I know of do anymore, they also don't have bible class or prayer either. I Love God first, then he tells me to love my neighbor as myself, thats why I love my country, some of my neighbors are my fellow Americans and countrymen that live here.

When My brother returned from Vietnam in 69' I believe he hated this country, and there have been times I have seen people for varies reasons begin to hate America, but their perceptions fogged their souls, in the end people like my brother and others realized it wasn't their country, it was men in power they had a problem with. Its like being young in soul and asking why God hates me and does these bad things, or allows these bad things…..people get mad at God because their perception isn't right. They never think to blame or even ask why does Satan do this, or why are men evil, but in time and maturity if they allow their perception to mature they see it. Some people can't see that yet, they see the evil, the wrong, the sin of America and refuse to see the good, and lump all the evil into a country an evil men and then lump it into a flag and "patriotism".

 

[BryanW92]

The correct name of the author you are refgering to is de Toqueville, .

Just like the correct name of the Marquis de Lafayette is "de Lafayette" and the Tour de France takes place in "de France"? Ummm. NO.

 

[RDKirk]

Allegiance means having loyalty or commitment to someone or something. That's not the same as worship. Worship means to have reverence and adoration for a deity (God). As long as people don't think the flag or America is a god, then it's not worship. It just means we are are pledging our loyalty to America.

Okay, so "loyalty and commitment, then."

One can only be truly loyal to one entity, and that is definitely true of commitment. You cannot commit to but one entity. Neither commitment nor loyalty can be divided if either is to be true.

Google for "divided loyalty" or "divided commitment" and you will find nobody says anything good about them.

Don’t you know that you are slaves of the one you obey? -- Romans 6

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other -- Mattew 6

What is really your nation? Who is really your fellow citizen?

But our citizenship is in heaven, -- Philippians 3

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation -- 1 Peter 2

 

[mafwons]

now lets think about that a little deeper ..what if that pledge of allegiance binds you to disobeying God ..like submitting to a mark in order to buy or sell ?

and on the other thought line in the thread..one does not have to pledge allegiance in order to love ones neighbor. we are called to love our Enemy also ..... food for thought

America would never be involved in the beast system Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes are gonna stop it.

 

[BryanW92]

One can only be truly loyal to one entity, and that is definitely true of commitment. You cannot commit to but one entity. Neither commitment nor loyalty can be divided if either is to be true.

So, a Christian cannot marry, sign a contract, or serve in the military? All these things require commitment and loyalty? I don't think that loyalty to country interferes with loyalty to God, unless that country is a Marxist-Progressive nation or one where the king/president claims to be a god ("we will look back on this day as the day when the planet began to heal and oceans started to recede"). For the first 210 or so years, this was a nation that a Christian could be loyal to and still be fully Christian. Today, it is not. I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore and I usually go to the bathroom for the national anthem at sporting events.

 

[BryanW92]

America would never be involved in the beast system Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes are gonna stop it.

LOL.

 

[RDKirk]

So, a Christian cannot marry, sign a contract, or serve in the military? All these things require commitment and loyalty?

What they require is what the God of the true commitment and loyalty states of them. If the God of our true commitment and loyalty commands, "Love your wife," then your loving your wife is a result of commitment and loyalty to God, not to her.

If the God of your commitment and loyalty commands, "Pay their taxes, honor their officials, obey their laws," then your payment, honor, and obedience a result of commitment and loyalty to God, not to that nation.

I don't think that loyalty to country interferes with loyalty to God, unless that country is a Marxist-Progressive nation or one where the king/president claims to be a god ("we will look back on this day as the day when the planet began to heal and oceans started to recede"). For the first 210 or so years, this was a nation that a Christian could be loyal to and still be fully Christian. Today, it is not. I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore and I usually go to the bathroom for the national anthem at sporting events.

When Paul wrote to the Romans, when Peter wrote to the Christians in various Roman provinces in Turkey, they were speaking to people in an overtly pagan empire. There is no escape clause for "if it's a Christian nation."

Loyalty to earthly nations does interfere with loyalty to God if we don't recogize that we as Christians are citizens of heaven and are merely "aliens and sojourners" in whatever earthly nation we happen to be in.

Those Christians who consider themselves "Russian" would then owe loyalty to Russia; those Christians who consider themselves "American" would then owe loyalty to America; those Christians who consider themselves "Chinese" would then owe loyalty to China.

"There is neither Greek nor Jew" then fails and is a lie.

But scripture is not a lie. For a Christian, "There is neither Greek nor Jew" is the truth. Between Christians, there is not Greek or Jew or America or Russian or Chinese.

For a Christian in America, that Christian in China is his fellow countryman--the unbeliever in America is not. Nor is America his country, but only his temporary host.

Christians are citizens of Heaven, only temporarily commissioned to earthly nations to perform a mission of limited duration...then we're going home. In these nations we are aliens and sojourners, not natives. Then entire letter of 1 Peter explains this in detail.

 

[BryanW92]

"There is neither Greek nor Jew" then fails and is a lie.

But scripture is not a lie. For a Christian, "There is neither Greek nor Jew" is the truth. Between Christians, there is not Greek or Jew or America or Russian or Chinese.

You have that exactly backwards. When the bible says that "There is neither Greek nor Jew", it is speaking of the fact that nationality does not affect our standing in the Kingdom of God. It doesn't mean that you can't be Greek nor Jew. I means that you can be either (or something else entirely) and still be a Christian.

It also says "nor is there male and female" in the same verse. Does that mean that only the androgynous can be Christian?

 

[mafwons]

So, a Christian cannot marry, sign a contract, or serve in the military? All these things require commitment and loyalty? I don't think that loyalty to country interferes with loyalty to God, unless that country is a Marxist-Progressive nation or one where the king/president claims to be a god ("we will look back on this day as the day when the planet began to heal and oceans started to recede"). For the first 210 or so years, this was a nation that a Christian could be loyal to and still be fully Christian. Today, it is not. I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore and I usually go to the bathroom for the national anthem at sporting events.

I don't attend sporting events, but on the very rare occassion I am somewhere and they play the star spangled banner or recite the pledge or other flag worshiping activities, I stay firmly planted in my seat.
Some contracts may be outside the realm of what a Christian should involve themselves in. Serving in the military requires swearing an oath, and that is not allowed for Christians let alone the moral aspects of killing people for money, not thinking thats ok. I believe the Bible outlines the importance of as well as the rules for marriage.

 

[BryanW92]

I don't attend sporting events, but on the very rare occassion I am somewhere and they play the star spangled banner or recite the pledge or other flag worshiping activities, I stay firmly planted in my seat.
Some contracts may be outside the realm of what a Christian should involve themselves in. Serving in the military requires swearing an oath, and that is not allowed for Christians let alone the moral aspects of killing people for money, not thinking thats ok. I believe the Bible outlines the importance of as well as the rules for marriage.

Soldiers are mercenaries?? I had a ultra-Progressive pastor once who talked like you. He would talk about the American solider as a mercenary for oil companies in one breath and then talk about Sandinistas or Hezbollah as freedom fighters in the next.

I can't be the perfect Christian that most of you in this forum demand. Fortunately, there is Jesus. I depend on him more than on my own sense of perfection. I trust that he is perfect much more than I trust that any of you are perfect.

 

[Red Fox]

.

 

[mafwons]

Soldiers are mercenaries?? I had a ultra-Progressive pastor once who talked like you. He would talk about the American solider as a mercenary for oil companies in one breath and then talk about Sandinistas or Hezbollah as freedom fighters in the next.

I can't be the perfect Christian that most of you in this forum demand. Fortunately, there is Jesus. I depend on him more than on my own sense of perfection. I trust that he is perfect much more than I trust that any of you are perfect.

I'm neither ultra progressive or a pastor. I don't meet the Biblical requirements. I am also just a sinner but one who would like to see the truth and try to do better to call me perfect would be quite laughable. I can find nothing more perfect than Jesus and the things this country does don't meet his standards, never havr never will, so I am not on board with it. As I am not affiliated with Hezzbollah or the Sandinistas I cannot specifically comment on their mission, it most certainly was not from God, but it is true that one mans terrorist is anothers freefom fighter.

 

[RDKirk]

You have that exactly backwards. When the bible says that "There is neither Greek nor Jew", it is speaking of the fact that nationality does not affect our standing in the Kingdom of God. It doesn't mean that you can't be Greek nor Jew. I means that you can be either (or something else entirely) and still be a Christian.

But Jews did not eat with Greeks, nor did Greeks consider Jews as philosophically sophisticated. So were they to consider each other as their nationalities demanded?

Is the Russian Christian to go to war with the American Christian if their nations dictate?

It also says "nor is there male and female" in the same verse. Does that mean that only the androgynous can be Christian?

It means that as far as we are to be concerned, we don't count one as any more holy than the other.

 

[dragongunner]

mafwons, you already know how I feel about the American flag and pledging allegiance to it or to America. Like I said before, the American flag does not deserve to be honored any more than the country it represents. All of the patriotic idol worship over America makes me sick to my stomach. As an Native American, this is what I think of the American flag and the country it represents.

“An upside down flag is an international signal of distress… now we, the Indian nations, are in distress. I will wear this flag upside down as long as my people are in distress!” - Russell Means, Lakota (1939 – 2012) - Russell Means, A Portrait

Is this the same Russell Means that in 1983 agreed to become running mate to Larry Flynt in his unsuccessful run for U.S. President….? The same who was arrested for assault and battery….? Among others……maybe sharing this in the "politics" section might be a better option for you and the OP.

 

[Alithis]

America would never be involved in the beast system Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes are gonna stop it.

i dont follow either of them so id have to ask what you mean so i know whether to nod knowingly or fall down laughing

i country that makes it law for men to marry men and terminate children would not make a law opposed to God ? hmmm that boats sailed

 

[BryanW92]

It means that as far as we are to be concerned, we don't count one as any more holy than the other.

That's right. Greek or Jew, slave or free, man or woman: all are equal in Christ, but that doesn't mean that you aren't what you are. You can't say that the Greek or Jew part means that you can't be either, and then say that the male or female part is about just treating both equally. That is the inconsistency of prooftexting.

The Christians of different nations have gone to war for a thousand years. But, we are also told in the bible to obey our leaders. The world is run by Satan in this age. Oftentimes the Christians of one nation fall under Satan's control and the Christians of another nation have to go to war to stop them. But, in the last century, most wars have been fought between Christians and nations of purely Satanic influence, such as socialists, communists, and muslims.

 

[BryanW92]

I'm neither ultra progressive or a pastor.

You're a Centrist, right?

 

[mafwons]

You're a Centrist, right?

I would not say say that I have taken a political poll that I find to be pretty credible and it says I am a slightly left leaning libertarian. The center is usually the worst place to be.

 

[mafwons]

i dont follow either of them so id have to ask what you mean so i know whether to nod knowingly or fall down laughing

i country that makes it law for men to marry men and terminate children would not make a law opposed to God ? hmmm that boats sailed

It was a joke those are two Godless men who are posing as Christian pastors of mega churches, and they have a God helps those who have the most kind of view, sort of a nothing bad ever befalls a true materialist mentality.

I agrer nothing has ever been Christian about this nation nor will it ever be, and on top of that the moral majority does really dumb stuff to get their point across.

 

[BryanW92]

The center is usually the worst place to be.

Yeah. LOL. Most people claim to be in the center, but few really are. The problem is that they consider themselves to be center (or more commonly, slightly left of center) because that's how they choose to self-perceive. My ultra-Prog pastor used to call himself slightly left of center too. I asked him once how often he finds someone who he considers "far left". He said that he knew a few. Then I asked how often he meets someone he considers "far right" and he said that most people he meets are far right. Obviously, he did not know the meaning of the word "center".