Christians are not commanded to observe the seventh day.

[MoreCoffee]

Okay BobRyan, but you can't say that you were not told.

 

[BobRyan]

I can say I never argued against those quotes - as though they are an argument against the Holy Spirit.

I can also say that the quotes we all see here -- #81 are given to us in english by the RCC source itself - I neither translate nor interpret by giving the quote for the reader to "read". Because the English used - is incredibly obvious.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

That is a good question - do those people not go to church? no weekends? -- just work 6months then 6 months of worship??

Please supply your biblical answer. Quote the passage you choose to follow for those circumstances. People at the South Pole are entitled to know how to follow the 10 commandments.

As for me, I follow scripture.

Rom 14:4-6
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
NASU

The reality is, the old Sabbath commandments cannot be universally followed, without making some additional tweaks, but the new testament freedom from the old covenant allows us to properly worship no matter what place we are on the planet, or even what planet we happen to be on.

What would be the proper scriptural answer to how to time the Sabbath when you are on a two week moon visit? No fair making stuff up, get it from the Bible!

You are stumped. I am not. Maybe Paul of Tarsus really was inspired of God to write those words.

 

[BobRyan]

It is not just RCC sources that make these claims

I find the "details" here as stated in English by the RCC sources themselves - to be incredibly obvious to the objective unbiased reader.



[FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29[/FONT]


Some may point out that the statements above are not meant to negate the work of the Holy Spirit. In my quote of them I never argue that these statements are meant to negate the work of the Holy Spirit.

It is also a great many of the other pro-sunday scholars noted in my signature line.

=================================

Here is an example of claims made by pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

We saw all of that here --
#1

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Is it your claim that until the fall or until the cross the people of God should be worshiping God as our "Creator" but after the resurrection of Christ that would be replaced by the importance of worshiping him as "Savior" ??
​

Exactly. It's not about Creation anymore, it's about the Apocalypse.

After the cross we have

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7. as part of the Rev 14:6 "Everlasting Gospel to preach to the whole world". As viewed by the "Saints who keep the Commandments of God AND faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

And Is 66:23 - speaking even of eternity and the "New Heavens and New Earth" says - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... SIX Days shall you labor ... for in SIX days the Lord MADE... and rested the seventh day therefore He blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy".

So yes -- "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7

 

[Cribstyl]

After the cross we have

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7. as part of the Rev 14:6 "Everlasting Gospel to preach to the whole world". As viewed by the "Saints who keep the Commandments of God AND faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Repeating same old false argument does not make them truth. In reference to Rev 14:7 Worshipping the creator and sabbathkeeping is not implied as the same thing. In reference to Rev14:6, John does not call the law the everlasting gospel. In reference to Rev 14:12 the commandments of God is related to content of the New Covenant not the law given Moses.

And Is 66:23 - speaking even of eternity and the "New Heavens and New Earth" says - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... SIX Days shall you labor ... for in SIX days the Lord MADE... and rested the seventh day therefore He blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy".

So yes -- "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7

Sabbath to Sabbath is a reference to week to week, not sabbathkeeping.

 

[listed]

After the cross we have

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7. as part of the Rev 14:6 "Everlasting Gospel to preach to the whole world". As viewed by the "Saints who keep the Commandments of God AND faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

And Is 66:23 - speaking even of eternity and the "New Heavens and New Earth" says - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... SIX Days shall you labor ... for in SIX days the Lord MADE... and rested the seventh day therefore He blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy".

So yes -- "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7

Meaningless twisted dribble that has already been refuted here several times. This is now nothing more than spam.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Is it your claim that until the fall or until the cross the people of God should be worshiping God as our "Creator" but after the resurrection of Christ that would be replaced by the importance of worshiping him as "Savior" ??
​

Exactly. It's not about Creation anymore, it's about the Apocalypse.

After the cross we have

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7. as part of the Rev 14:6 "Everlasting Gospel to preach to the whole world". As viewed by the "Saints who keep the Commandments of God AND faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

And Is 66:23 - speaking even of eternity and the "New Heavens and New Earth" says - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... SIX Days shall you labor ...
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord your God. ... For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So yes -- "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7

Repeating same old false argument does not make them truth.

Does your position require you to complain whenever those scriptures are posted??

In reference to Rev 14:7 Worshipping the creator and sabbathkeeping is not implied as the same thing.

Until we read the text and notice the details in it.

In reference to Rev14:6, John does not call the law the everlasting gospel.

The message of the first angel in Rev 14:6-7 is the everlasting Gospel and contains the message about future judgment - just as Paul says in Romans 8:13-16 "on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge".

In reference to Rev 14:12 the commandments of God is related to content of the New Covenant

Until you read the actual New Covenant in Jer 31:31-33 and note that the LAW of that new Covenant is that which Jeremiah and his contemporary readers would have known - the one that is quoted again for us in Hebrews 8.

In every example the solution you propose relies on the reader not knowing the details of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cribstyl]

After the cross we have

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7. as part of the Rev 14:6 "Everlasting Gospel to preach to the whole world". As viewed by the "Saints who keep the Commandments of God AND faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

And Is 66:23 - speaking even of eternity and the "New Heavens and New Earth" says - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... SIX Days shall you labor ... for in SIX days the Lord MADE... and rested the seventh day therefore He blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy".

So yes -- "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

Repeating same old false argument does not make them truth.
​

Does your position require you to complain whenever those scriptures are posted??

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

In reference to Rev 14:7 Worshipping the creator and sabbathkeeping is not implied as the same thing.
​

Until we read the text and notice the details in it.

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

In reference to Rev14:6, John does not call the law the everlasting gospel.
​

The message of the first angel in Rev 14:6-7 is the everlasting Gospel and contains the message about future judgment - just as Paul says in Romans 8:13-16 "on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge".

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

In reference to Rev 14:12 the commandments of God is related to content of the New Covenant
​

Until you read the actual New Covenant in Jer 31:31-33 and note that the LAW of that new Covenant is that which Jeremiah and his contemporary readers would have known - the one that is quoted again for us in Hebrews 8.

In every example the solution you propose relies on the reader not knowing the details of the text.

You call it complaining, I call it pointing out scriptures in context.

First off, you're using Rev14 to claim it teaches that; keeping sabbath and the ten commandments are taught after the cross. These scriptures does not say that. That argument is based on word games and designed to contradict scriptures that says; we're not under the law.
You're not addressing the texts in context, but rather using it for word games. Piling on more scriptures like Isa66 and Jer 33 are more questionable arguments to stack the deck with commentary.

 

[BobRyan]

After the cross we have

"Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7. as part of the Rev 14:6 "Everlasting Gospel to preach to the whole world". As viewed by the "Saints who keep the Commandments of God AND faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

And Is 66:23 - speaking even of eternity and the "New Heavens and New Earth" says - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

Ex 20:8-11 "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... SIX Days shall you labor ...
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the Lord your God. ... For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.



So yes -- "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7

First off, you're using Rev14 to claim it teaches that; keeping sabbath and the ten commandments are taught after the cross.

yes I believe it is fair to say that I am pointing that out as details in the texts listed above.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Revelation chapter fourteen doesn't mention the "ten commandments"

 

[listed]

Revelation chapter fourteen doesn't mention the "ten commandments"

nor the Sabbath.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Revelation chapter fourteen doesn't mention the "ten commandments"

nor the Sabbath.

typical word games..... in the SDA vocabulary any time the terms commandment(s), rule(s), law(s), etc. is used it must mean the 10 commandments and nothing else. To these people there is no commandments other than the 10 with perhaps the dietary commandment. One cannot argue that other commandments are talked about when the word(s) are mentioned as it falls on deaf ears.

 

[MoreCoffee]

typical word games..... in the SDA vocabulary any time the terms commandment(s), rule(s), law(s), etc. is used it must mean the 10 commandments and nothing else. To these people there is no commandments other than the 10 with perhaps the dietary commandment. One cannot argue that other commandments are talked about when the word(s) are mentioned as it falls on deaf ears.

It's truth that matters not what ears filter out or in. If some want to see "commandments" as code for "the ten commandments" unless otherwise stated then they will fall into error. Obviously when Jesus says "upon these two commands hang all the law and the prophets" he is not using "commandments" as code for "the ten commandments". Thus the argument is self defeating because clear counter examples are present in scripture.

I just posted a video clip from a conference in Dubai where a Muslim teacher answers a Christian's question about the Muslim prohibition on pork. The Muslim teacher uses specious reasoning to establish the prohibition on Pork and what's interesting is that he uses the same kind of specious reasoning that we see in this thread. The root cause of the errors we see in this thread is reading scripture as honey pot of proof-texts that one can dip into to prove one's own opinion to be true and one's interlocutor's opinion to be a lie. The reason that such an approach is faulty is that the scriptures are not written as a honey pot of proof texts. The scriptures are written to teach specific lessons with each book being written for its own purposes. The overall message only becomes apparent when the whole is read and each part if carefully compared to the teaching of Jesus Christ. For Christians the last word in revelation from God, the definitive revelation beyond which it is not possible to go, is Jesus Christ. So when I see a Muslim arguing in favour of Moses' prohibition on pork and a Seventh Day Adventist arguing in favour of Moses' ten commandments I know that the argument they are presenting is missing the most important revelation from God, namely Jesus Christ. What Moses says is not complete. It is completed by Jesus Christ. So Jesus Christ tells me "Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile." and the apostles add "Thus he declared all foods clean." so I know that pork will not defile me, it is not a sin to eat pork. It is not necessary to eat pork either. But when a religious teacher tells me "don't eat pork" and makes that into a religious duty then I know that the religious teacher is teaching error. I dismiss their error and take the truth that Jesus taught.

Truth is a better master than religious traditions invented by would be prophetesses and would be prophets. Ellen White and Mohammed fail to convince whenever they speak against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

It's truth that matters not what ears filter out or in. If some want to see "commandments" as code for "the ten commandments" unless otherwise stated then they will fall into error.

The Commandments of God in the NT are the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant.

And turns out -- even the RCC admits that those "commandments" include the Decalogue - the TEN Commandments.

The RCC specifically addresses the question of whether the TEN Commandments have been abolished.

[FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

yes I believe it is fair to say that I am pointing that out as details in the texts listed above.

in Christ,

Bob

The people at the South Pole research station . . . real people, alive right now . . cannot keep your Sabbath day commandments, they have not had a sunset for several months now.

I would suggest that the New Testament came along just in time to negate a command which was about to become impossible for some people in some places.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's truth that matters not what ears filter out or in. If some want to see "commandments" as code for "the ten commandments" unless otherwise stated then they will fall into error. Obviously when Jesus says "upon these two commands hang all the law and the prophets" he is not using "commandments" as code for "the ten commandments". Thus the argument is self defeating because clear counter examples are present in scripture.

I just posted a video clip from a conference in Dubai where a Muslim teacher answers a Christian's question about the Muslim prohibition on pork. The Muslim teacher uses specious reasoning to establish the prohibition on Pork and what's interesting is that he uses the same kind of specious reasoning that we see in this thread. The root cause of the errors we see in this thread is reading scripture as honey pot of proof-texts that one can dip into to prove one's own opinion to be true and one's interlocutor's opinion to be a lie. The reason that such an approach is faulty is that the scriptures are not written as a honey pot of proof texts. The scriptures are written to teach specific lessons with each book being written for its own purposes. The overall message only becomes apparent when the whole is read and each part if carefully compared to the teaching of Jesus Christ. For Christians the last word in revelation from God, the definitive revelation beyond which it is not possible to go, is Jesus Christ. So when I see a Muslim arguing in favour of Moses' prohibition on pork and a Seventh Day Adventist arguing in favour of Moses' ten commandments I know that the argument they are presenting is missing the most important revelation from God, namely Jesus Christ. What Moses says is not complete. It is completed by Jesus Christ. So Jesus Christ tells me "Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile." and the apostles add "Thus he declared all foods clean." so I know that pork will not defile me, it is not a sin to eat pork. It is not necessary to eat pork either. But when a religious teacher tells me "don't eat pork" and makes that into a religious duty then I know that the religious teacher is teaching error. I dismiss their error and take the truth that Jesus taught.

Truth is a better master than religious traditions invented by would be prophetesses and would be prophets. Ellen White and Mohammed fail to convince whenever they speak against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

The Commandments of God in the NT are the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant... those "commandments" include the Decalogue - the TEN Commandments.
...

It leads to error, BobRyan, seeing "commandments" as code for "the ten commandments" unless otherwise stated leads to error.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you have some time then watch the video clip ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Es9xJutiwo

 

[Cribstyl]

yes I believe it is fair to say that I am pointing that out as details in the texts listed above.

in Christ,

Bob

Tell me where I'm off base about your detailed understanding of Rev14:6 and 7 BobRyan.

SDA's everlating gospel is based on their interpretation of the three angels messages of Rev 14. true or false?

SDA believe that the first angel message was manifested in the ministry of William Miller and the Millerites who prophetically established that; "the hour of God judgment has come" (1844). Ellen White along with other Millerites pioneers confirmed that the hour of Christ judgment came not on earth as expected but rather in the heavenly sanctuary.

Rev 14:6
¶And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,


Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

After much deliberation after the great disappointment of 1844, it was accepted and agreed by the Millerites that sabbathkeeping was the way to worship Him that made heaven and earth. Dismissing the fact that even William Miller said: I was in error about Christ's return.

So SDA gospel is to teach that judgment began in heaven and all are to be judged by the law.
The second angel's message is Babylon has fallen........ They consider the rejection of the first angel's message about he The sanctuary, Sabbath and the law, has put all Sunday churches in line with the beast ( Catholicis) with it's mark ( Sunday worship). True or False?