former Christians who became Muslim what made you turn away from Jesus ?

[WoodrowX2]

Muhammad was NOT a true prophet and allah is a false pagan god Not God. No real follower of Christ would turn away from Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua9HsFPtPM4

During my years (over 45) as a Christian I said those very words many times. I really deeply believed that a person who had been reoborn of the Holy Spirit" given the gifts of speaking in tonguues and of spreading the world could ever leave. I believed Jesus would hold all true Christians fast and remove all doubts. I felt very strong in my closeness to Jesus and knew I would always be embraced in his loving arms.
I sincely believed that Jesus would hold me fast and always help me overcome all doubts and trials.
It was a very deep knowing that as a Christian I would never leave Jesus.
I also know that very many Christians believe they will never leave Christianity.

I pray that one day Jesus will lead them to the truth and they will learn they are to follow Jesus, not worship him.
I did not leave Jesus, he lead me to the truth. I thank him with all my heart for leading me away from the belief he was to be worshiped.

 

[WoodrowX2]

I was asking which part of Paul's teachings different from that of Christ.... So hard to get a straight answer.

Now I wonder which part of Bible looks different? The part where Jesus said the biggest law is to love your neighbor as yourself? Or that what Paul said " Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (1 Cor 13)?

Sorry.
It is quite difficult to put into words and at the same time not to give the Impression I am bashing Christianity.

I do have very much love for Jesus(as) and do know he spoke only the truth.

But what exists today in the Bible are mostly things Jesus(as) would never recognize. Paul gave a new message that over rode the teachings of Jesus(as).

I think that what one needs to do first is to try to picture pre-Paul Christianity and then see how it changed under the direction of Paul.

It is pointless to tell a Paulist the errors of Paul, it is something they have to find on their own.

 

[harvester77]

Sorry.
It is quite difficult to put into words and at the same time not to give the Impression I am bashing Christianity.

I do have very much love for Jesus(as) and do know he spoke only the truth.

But what exists today in the Bible are mostly things Jesus(as) would never recognize. Paul gave a new message that over rode the teachings of Jesus(as).

I think that what one needs to do first is to try to picture pre-Paul Christianity and then see how it changed under the direction of Paul.

It is pointless to tell a Paulist the errors of Paul, it is something they have to find on their own.

Yes I am not keen on this new age evangelical Christian thing either but what did Jesus mean by this? I have to say some Christians do cherry pick the once saved always saved,
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Yes I am not keen on this new age evangelical Christian thing either but what did Jesus mean by this? I have to say some Christians do cherry pick the once saved always saved,
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

As we do not have the original Aramaic words Jesus(as) used. We are essentially just guessing.

However, such a phrase would probably have not been understood by the Jews of the era and an explanation would have been needed. But there is no indication such explanation was given. Makes me suspect the Greek translation is in error.

 

[harvester77]

Well I am trying to study Mohammed and his revelations. He was scared of Gabriel and thought he was possessed at first. Another thing God says we must pray 50 times a day then Mohamed says that's too much for humans, as if God does not know and lowers as if mohamed is in control. Strange, plus when saying the shadada for a religion that emphasis n strict no association with God, mohameds name should not even be mentioned even as the messenger. Only God should when professing your new faith.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Well I am trying to study Mohammed and his revelations. He was scared of Gabriel and thought he was possessed at first. Another thing God says we must pray 50 times a day then Mohamed says that's too much for humans, as if God does not know and lowers as if mohamed is in control. Strange, plus when saying the shadada for a religion that emphasis n strict no association with God, mohameds name should not even be mentioned even as the messenger. Only God should when professing your new faith.

Muhammad (ṣalla Allāhu ʿalay-hi wa-sallam) was not the first one to talk G-d down from fifty. Abraham (ʿalayhi al-salām) was also able to talk G-d down in regards to the destruction of Sodom from fifty to ten righteous inhabitants.

 

[gord44]

God changed his mind a few times in the Hebrew bible.

 

[harvester77]

In Islam he changed it more. I am also interested in how Mohammed thought I teas a demon and not an angel that came to him? Also, what are the satanic verses?

 

[WoodrowX2]

Well I am trying to study Mohammed and his revelations. He was scared of Gabriel and thought he was possessed at first. Another thing God says we must pray 50 times a day then Mohamed says that's too much for humans, as if God does not know and lowers as if mohamed is in control. Strange, plus when saying the shadada for a religion that emphasis n strict no association with God, mohameds name should not even be mentioned even as the messenger. Only God should when professing your new faith.

As I see and understand it the Shahadah is telling us the message came Allaah(swt) not from Muhammad(saaws)
One does not worship the Messenger.

"There is no God, but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah"

Without that being part of the Shahadah I believe we would at the very least be praying to Muhammad, probably even idolizing and worshiping him. The Message was not the work of Muhammad(saaws) he was simply given the responsibility to deliver it to us. We worship the Message not the Messenger.

 

[WoodrowX2]

In Islam he changed it more. I am also interested in how Mohammed thought I teas a demon and not an angel that came to him? Also, what are the satanic verses?

If you read the Bible, you may discover that People who had encounters with Angels, were often very terrified at the initial contacl

Even Mary had to be calmed down by Gabriel as she was terrified at first.

As for the "Satanic Verses" you will have to ask Rashudie as that is the title of his book.

There is no mention of such in the Qur'an, Sunnah or Authenticated Ahadith.

 

[dcalling]

I'm talking about Paul's doctrine of justification by faith alone. You'll find that in Romans and Galatians. Jesus never used the phrase. Look especially at the first three chapters of Romans.

Do you have a specific verse?

Also Paul never differentiated with Jesus on his primary teaching of love. He just expanded it.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Do you have a specific verse?

Also Paul never differentiated with Jesus on his primary teaching of love. He just expanded it.

this says a lot

He just expanded it.


True, the NT did make Paul to be greater and more knowledgeable than Jesus. To the point Christianity became Paulism.

 

[dcalling]

this says a lot
He just expanded it.

True, the NT did make Paul to be greater and more knowledgeable than Jesus. To the point Christianity became Paulism.

Well, it is my bad use of word. None of you can explain what is Paulism, or where did Paul step out of Jesus' teachings.

God has changed Paul to preach God's words, and he did excatly that, and for that he was beaten, in imprisoned and later killed, but he never complained for all the harsh treatments. From his actions and words, he is a true follower of Christ.

 

[gord44]

Do you have a specific verse?

Also Paul never differentiated with Jesus on his primary teaching of love. He just expanded it.

I am beginning to wonder if you have read the New Testament. A quick read through the epistles clearly explains his theology of grace and justification by faith alone. Smaneck already provided the letters you can start in.

Jesus loved the works, that is clear. Paul didn't love the works. You read the gospels alone and Jesus makes you feel like you gotta do some stuff to hang with him. You read the epistles alone and Paul makes you feel all you gotta do is believe in Jesus to hang with him.

I don't get the 'love' aspect much from Paul. Sure he talks about it and preaches it, but he focuses more on salvation.

 

[dcalling]

I am beginning to wonder if you have read the New Testament. A quick read through the epistles clearly explains his theology of grace and justification by faith alone. Smaneck already provided the letters you can start in.

Jesus loved the works, that is clear. Paul didn't love the works. You read the gospels alone and Jesus makes you feel like you gotta do some stuff to hang with him. You read the epistles alone and Paul makes you feel all you gotta do is believe in Jesus to hang with him.

I don't get the 'love' aspect much from Paul. Sure he talks about it and preaches it, but he focuses more on salvation.

Jesus' audiences are all Jews (small faction of non-Jews), they already know God. Paul's audiences are mostly non-Jews, they have to believe in God first. Once people truly know God and his grace, good works will follow. Good works is not because God/people told you to do works, it comes from within, that you have the spirit of God and you want to do good works, it is all nature.

Once you are a true follower of God, good works will follow, not otherwise.

 

[smaneck]

Jesus' audiences are all Jews (small faction of non-Jews), they already know God. Paul's audiences are mostly non-Jews, they have to believe in God first.

Sorry, but that's not what his epistles indicate. He wants people to believe in Christ first. Read the first few passages of Corinthians.

I have to agree with gordRedeemed you are disturbingly ignorant of the contents of the New Testament.

 

[dcalling]

Sorry, but that's not what his epistles indicate. He wants people to believe in Christ first. Read the first few passages of Corinthians.

I have to agree with gordRedeemed you are disturbingly ignorant of the contents of the New Testament.

I attached first few passage of Corinthians, where is the division from what Christ preaches?? You claim I have not read the Gospel, can you give specific verses that show Paul's different to Christ?

Quote below:

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, 2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanksgiving

4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
A Church Divided Over Leaders

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

 

[dcalling]

And look at the following, he is also using the Torah for Christ (1 Corr, below my original quotes)
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[

 

[smaneck]

I attached first few passage of Corinthians, where is the division from what Christ preaches?? You claim I have not read the Gospel, can you give specific verses that show Paul's different to Christ?

I have already told you which verses. The ones in Romans which speak of justification by faith in Jesus Christ. Where does Jesus ever speak of justification period? The burden of proof is on you.

 

[harvester77]

I remember sitting in a service a couple of years ago as a very new Christian and being told that the 12 apstles were prepared to die for their faith and never denied Jesus Christ. That was pretty strong for me as I did not see Mohammed or Joseph smith dying. What do you make of that? Are all the apostles liars?