Having fun wading through the meaningless ramble Ken?
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I agree! Now with that in mind; doesnt this idea of 1 truth that everyone is aware of; but insist on denying sound rather absurd?Yes religious beliefs were far fetched and many still are. But this is the same for everything across the board with what we believed in the past. Knowledge and awareness of things has enlightened us so that we now know better. But if you look at even what medicine and science believed there were some pretty crazy ideas as well.
Ill bet they said the same thing about thunder and lightening! Science and Atheism will want to have a man made or naturalistic explanation for thunder and lightening .. etc etc. But guess what! Science explained it, and the religions who were unable to adapt to scientific discoveries are not around any more. What does that tell you?I think science is important to help us understand our world and helping people. But it can only go so far. This is where the faith comes in. Knowing where science can end and God begins. Such as with the creation of life. Science will still try to explain everything. Atheism will want to have a man made or naturalistic reason for everything. But we have to also keep an open mind that maybe there is a place for a God/creator that made existence. There are some things that science will never be able to explain.
Ken-1122
I have the belief and I think a lot of Christians do which is biblical based that the morals/values we all have are fro God anyway. So when other religions or non believers have some of these values they are only tapping into what is in us from God. They are not learnt from the beginning, they are just there in us. Our conscience has the truth of Gods morality written on it.
One has to wonder; if the Nazi's hated God so much, why did they put "God is with us" (Gott Mit Uns) on their belt buckles?Ken-1122
It is quite the opposite I am led to believe. He is often quoted as an example of atheists thinking and actions. But he had a mixture of influences with a Catholic mother and a skeptical father. But the most telling came from his closest associates. Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity."[5] Many historians have come to the conclusion that Hitler's long term aim was the eradication of Christianity in Germany,[6] while others maintain that there is insufficient evidence for such a plan.
Yeah; that's what they said when the quakers and abolitionist talked about ending slavery! That's what they said when they talked about giving black people their citizenship rights! That's what they said about a lot of things we now know was right.Actually it is said the end of slavery came from Christians. But I was talking more about where the freedom of rights have led to now. It seems all sorts of things are being allowed. Some have now gained to much rights. Or at least some think they have the right to do certain things that are not OK.
Different countries have different laws. Initially the US needed Guns to enforce slavery, and to run the Indians off their land; amongst other things. Once you give someone a right, it becomes difficult to take that right away from them. Kinda like trying to put the Genie back into the bottleI'm just saying irregardless of what reasons it seems that people think they have a right to a gun. There are lots of guns. If it is the poor and uneducated that have them then that is even worse. But we just dont give anyone the right in the first place. So if there are any it will be only a few and it hard to get and obvious that they shouldn't have them.
I may have to back off a little. I am the only one from my side posting. Where are all the others. Help .
One has to wonder; if the Nazi's hated God so much, why did they put "God is with us" (Gott Mit Uns) on their belt buckles?
WW-2 German Belt Buckles Gott Mit uns
[7]
Hitler grew up as a Catholic and he referred to God and the bible as he was making his way into power. But he was a smart politician and he knew he had to keep the church on side as they were the one institution that could give him trouble. But think about it what were his true intentions. He hated the Jews and Jesus was a Jew. Much of the bible is Hebrew and may of the great men in it are Jews.One has to wonder; if the Nazi's hated God so much, why did they put "God is with us" (Gott Mit Uns) on their belt buckles?
It is not my opinion it is what the bible says.So is it your opinion that everyone is born with Christian values; weather they're christian or not? When they're good they're following their Christian values, when they're bad they are not?
No not really. Because a lack of knowledge about science or medicine is just that. There is no inner knowledge that you can have to make a person more smarter and aware of what the correct procedure is for say heart surgery. We had to learn it trough trial and error and studying. But morals are different. If we have an inner knowledge that has always been there then it will basically be the same.I agree! Now with that in mind; doesnt this idea of 1 truth that everyone is aware of; but insist on denying sound rather absurd?
I agree but religion should have never jumped into bed with science and tried to play the same game. It is never meant to. It is not a science and cannot be proven by scientific evidence. We are here on this earth which is a material world. God is wherever call it heaven, or a spiritual realm. The two are different planes with different realities. Science can explain things but that doesn't mean it also can prove how it came into being. People make the mistake of thinking just because science can attempt to explain something means they also know how it came into existence.Ill bet they said the same thing about thunder and lightening! Science and Atheism will want to have a man made or naturalistic explanation for thunder and lightening .. etc etc. But guess what! Science explained it, and the religions who were unable to adapt to scientific discoveries are not around any more. What does that tell you?
I am reminded of an old saying;
at the end of the day; science can proclaim it has filled many holes once occupied by religion; forcing religion to scamper off looking for new holes to fill
Yesterday they filled the holes of thunder and lightening; now theyve scampered off trying to fill the holes of creation and life! Its just a matter of time before theyre forced to scamper off looking for something else
The issue isnt trying to prove religions by science; science doesnt even recognize religion. The problem is when it seems that scientific claims contradict religious claims.I agree but religion should have never jumped into bed with science and tried to play the same game. It is never meant to. It is not a science and cannot be proven by scientific evidence.
If we make the leap and assume something actually came into existence; it is the job of science to figure that out. The problem is, whenever science figures something out, it never includes religion. It should be understandable when religious people find this threatening.We are here on this earth which is a material world. God is wherever call it heaven, or a spiritual realm. The two are different planes with different realities. Science can explain things but that doesn't mean it also can prove how it came into being. People make the mistake of thinking just because science can attempt to explain something means they also know how it came into existence.
But it always gives explanations that does not include God.In fact it is inherent in science to think this. But science could be just pulling apart and explaining Gods creation.
Ever see a coral reef? Who was the intelligent designer behind that? You should never assume that because something looks complex and magnificent; that it must have an intelligent design behind it.It needs to come up with a naturalistic explanation for life and existence yet life and existence has the appearance of design. If we tried to explain anything else in life that had half as much complexity and magnificent design we would say it had a designer.
Are you kidding me??? Do you really believe science is running out of things to discover? The more we learn the more we realize we just dont know!But as time has gone by we have accumulated knowledge and now we can discover at a rate beyond belief. We can even know that we know that we had seen the world differently and that things change with time and knowledge. So we are compounding what we know and now we are moving closer to the very core of existence with quantum physics and so there isn't to much more to discover as far as big things are.
Now that has religion written all over it! When religion provided answers to the unknown, that normal way of seeing and measuring the world was in conflict with reality and science was the new way of thinking.But what do we discover when we open that door. That our normal way of seeing the world and measuring it is in conflict with this world. It now calls for a different way of thinking.
Science also doesn't recognize anything to do with the supernatural or non physical things. But you have said it scientific claims. A scientific claim maybe that miracles cannot happen and there must be another explanation. But science cant completely rule out that a miracle can happen either. Some people make religious claims that are not Biblical based and this is where it comes undone as well. But I can see how science can totally disprove God and belief in Him.The issue isnt trying to prove religions by science; science doesnt even recognize religion. The problem is when it seems that scientific claims contradict religious claims.
I dont find it threatening and it should be threatening to someone who has a faith in God. If God was proved by science then there would be no need for faith. God would then be here with us and showing His qualities all the time. But then that would be our reality either and maybe it would then be Gods Kingdom. But if we then make the leap and say that God did make something from nothing come into existence then science would not be able to explain it according to the logic and laws it is using now. It would have to allow for some supernatural aspect and therefor it would step outside their field.If we make the leap and assume something actually came into existence; it is the job of science to figure that out. The problem is, whenever science figures something out, it never includes religion. It should be understandable when religious people find this threatening.
Yes but some of them are pretty close to being as out there as they say God is. This is because they have to. What they are seeing and trying to explain now are going off the scale of normal physics. The results they are seeing dont make sense sometimes and add up to what they thought they should be with the normal ways they measure things. So now they are having to think outside the circle. This has caused some to come up with some crazy ideas that can make God seem like pretty good explanation.But it always gives explanations that does not include God.
But we measure absolutely everything in life that way. Logic states that when we look at a complicated computer software of magnificent architectural design we immediately know it has had some design behind it.Ever see a coral reef? Who was the intelligent designer behind that? You should never assume that because something looks complex and magnificent; that it must have an intelligent design behind it.
Faith is not a bad thing and it is the only way we can come to God. To pretend otherwise is trying to mix religion and science. What you are saying about the two is a given and there is no controversy there. Religion cant be measured on a scientific basis and just because it cant doesn't mean that it or God is invalid. The moment you start to try and use science to state that religion is false can be as quickly turned around to say then prove there is no God. They can and never will but they should even entertain the idea as well. Its those who want to use science to prove religion as a religion itself that get into trouble. Though I do believe you can support belief with science sometimes its should be the main basis of belief.Now that has religion written all over it! When religion provided answers to the unknown, that normal way of seeing and measuring the world was in conflict with reality and science was the new way of thinking.
Science is falsifiable; meaning there must be a scenario whereas it can be proven wrong. Religion is the opposite; religion cannot allow a scenario where it can be proven wrong. Thats why faith is so important with religion; because when reason, logic, and all the facts fly in the face of religion; sometimes faith is the only card you have to play. With science, they will admit they were wrong and change their claims to include this new found information.
But we measure absolutely everything in life that way. Logic states that when we look at a complicated computer software or a magnificent architectural design we immediately know it has had some design behind it.Ever see a coral reef? Who was the intelligent designer behind that? You should never assume that because something looks complex and magnificent; that it must have an intelligent design behind it.
Of course there will always be something. But when you consider where we were 100 years ago and even 50 years ago we have come a long way. We have gone well beyond just knowing matter and atoms. Now they say there is not really anything much smaller than what we are seeing in the quantum world. We are mapping the genomes of animals and ourselves. We are looking deep into the universe now at even the remains of the big bang. I would say the next 10 or 20 years will bring some pretty spectacular discoveries that will give us some good insight into life and existence. It seems we are standing at the door of all these different fields of existence and life at the same time. Before we were walking down the foot path to that door. So what we will see now is all about how existence came into being so it will be ground breaking.Are you kidding me??? Do you really believe science is running out of things to discover? The more we learn the more we realize we just dont know!
Faith is not a bad thing and it is the only way we can come to God. To pretend otherwise is trying to mix religion and science. What you are saying about the two is a given and there is no controversy there. Religion cant be measured on a scientific basis and just because it cant doesn't mean that it or God is invalid. The moment you start to try and use science to state that religion is false can be as quickly turned around to say then prove there is no God. They can and never will but they should even entertain the idea as well. Its those who want to use science to prove religion as a religion itself that get into trouble. Though I do believe you can support belief with science sometimes its should be the main basis of belief.Now that has religion written all over it! When religion provided answers to the unknown, that normal way of seeing and measuring the world was in conflict with reality and science was the new way of thinking.
Science is falsifiable; meaning there must be a scenario whereas it can be proven wrong. Religion is the opposite; religion cannot allow a scenario where it can be proven wrong. Thats why faith is so important with religion; because when reason, logic, and all the facts fly in the face of religion; sometimes faith is the only card you have to play. With science, they will admit they were wrong and change their claims to include this new found information.
Thats because as humans we know the difference between something man made vs nature made. An alien from another planet who has no idea what something man made looks like will probably assume the designer of a tree leaf is the same designer of a dollar bill and assume that because leaves grow on trees; money grows no trees as well!Ken-1122
But we measure absolutely everything in life that way. Logic states that when we look at a complicated computer software or a magnificent architectural design we immediately know it has had some design behind it.
Science is not in the business of disproving religion or God. They go where the evidence leads them and do not address the plethora of places where evidence does not lead them; religion and God includedFaith is not a bad thing and it is the only way we can come to God. To pretend otherwise is trying to mix religion and science. What you are saying about the two is a given and there is no controversy there. Religion cant be measured on a scientific basis and just because it cant doesn't mean that it or God is invalid. The moment you start to try and use science to state that religion is false can be as quickly turned around to say then prove there is no God.
The multiple universe theory is just a hypothetical; there is no scientific theory that claims multiple Universes. Even the name Universe means one. (Uni = 1) If there were more than one they would probably call it multiverse; and all of them together would be called the Universe. They have to have something described as all that exists. That is what we call the Universe.But what is happening in the world of science is interesting. They have come to a point where normal testable explanations cannot suffice. How do you test a multi universe theory to validate it. But the very idea of multi universes states that there will be other living beings and conditions add infinite universes to make it work. Each universe can never be visited as they are in another realm beyond our reality. Doesn't that sound a lot like how non believers say how God is.
[FONT="]Thats the thing, suddenly we give nature this great ability to be able to create something far greater than the smartest of humans. In fact it has taken and still is taking humans with all the greatest brains and equipment in the world to begin to understand and work out how our genetic code works. After many decades of testing and trying we still cant replicate life in a lab and thats even with all the aided conditions we allow to give it a boost. Bu somehow nature has done all this and 100 times more than any man made design through plain random chance. The odds seem incredible. I think aliens will know the difference as much as we know the difference between something that is man made and something that is living no matter where they come from. There is almost a inbuilt knowledge of Gods creation that is seen by all.Thats because as humans we know the difference between something man made vs nature made. An alien from another planet who has no idea what something man made looks like will probably assume the designer of a tree leaf is the same designer of a dollar bill and assume that because leaves grow on trees; money grows no trees as well!
[FONT="]I understand that, But it doesn't stop people from using it to discredit religion God. Evolution is often quoted as a proof that there cant be a God or there doesn't need to be a God. So people do use science as a way to discredit God. It happens on here all the time. For many it goes beyond the science is just science and it just represents a non emotive point of view. It should but it doesn't for many. Its a bit like religion. It becomes a matter of personal beliefs as atheists and believers. Still I dont think anyone can definitely prove there is no God so what some say about there being no God is a sort of belief just like religion.[/FONT]
Science is not in the business of disproving religion or God. They go where the evidence leads them and do not address the plethora of places where evidence does not lead them; religion and God included
But there is very strong belief in string theory and multi universe theory now. Most scientists dont even consider that our universe is the only one. If they did then they are in trouble because it leaves a lot of explaining. In fact it would make a case for God. Because our one universe is so finely tuned and made for life. There are to many things that are so precise to have come from a chaotic random naturalistic process that could have produced a number of many outcomes. So multi universes help spread the uniqueness around so that our special one is just one of billions. So you see they really have to have something along the lines of other universes and realities to explain the things they see. But they are also taking things outside our reality to accommodate this. This is what some accuse God of being outside our reality to explain things about how life was created.The multiple universe theory is just a hypothetical; there is no scientific theory that claims multiple Universes. Even the name Universe means one. (Uni = 1) If there were more than one they would probably call it multiverse; and all of them together would be called the Universe. They have to have something described as all that exists. That is what we call the Universe.
We didn’t give nature anything. We have never been able to do everything nature has done. We can do more than ever before, but when it comes to creating life, planets, stars; humans can’t do that stuff!Ken-1122
[FONT="]That’s the thing, suddenly we give nature this great ability to be able to create something far greater than the smartest of humans.
Why does this surprise you?In fact it has taken and still is taking humans with all the greatest brains and equipment in the world to begin to understand and work out how our genetic code works. After many decades of testing and trying we still can’t replicate life in a lab and that’s even with all the aided conditions we allow to give it a boost. Bu somehow nature has done all this and 100 times more than any man made design through plain random chance.
How do you know this? As a theist, I can understand you believing this, but that's just your faith at work again.The odds seem incredible. I think aliens will know the difference as much as we know the difference between something that is man made and something that is living no matter where they come from. There is almost a inbuilt knowledge of Gods creation that is seen by all.
Do you blame science for this?I understand that, But it doesn't stop people from using it to discredit religion God
Science does have a history of disproving many of the claims of God. I am sure when science discovered the real action behind thunder was not the hammer of Thor, people said science is used to discredit God then as well! Now if you have a problem with it; all you gotta do is prove them wrong!Evolution is often quoted as a proof that there can’t be a God or there doesn't need to be a God. So people do use science as a way to discredit God. It happens on here all the time.
But there is very strong belief in string theory and multi universe theory now. Most scientists don’t even consider that our universe is the only one.
Such as…..If they did then they are in trouble because it leaves a lot of explaining.
If our Universe is so finely tuned for life, why is there so little life in it?In fact it would make a case for God. Because our one universe is so finely tuned and made for life.
I’ll bet if the outcome were different, you would be saying the same thing.There are to many things that are so precise to have come from a chaotic random naturalistic process that could have produced a number of many outcomes.
Again Uni-verse means 1. If there were more than one, they wouldn’t be called Universe, they would call them something else; perhaps multiverses.So multi universes help spread the uniqueness around so that our special one is just one of billions. So you see they really have to have something along the lines of other universes and realities to explain the things they see. But they are also taking things outside our reality to accommodate this. This is what some accuse God of being outside our reality to explain things about how life was created.
And yet some say that nature created itself by random chance. If it looks like its designed and it acts like its designed then maybe its designed.We didnt give nature anything. We have never been able to do everything nature has done. We can do more than ever before, but when it comes to creating life, planets, stars; humans cant do that stuff!
I think nature is nature no matter where it is. We can look out into space and possible see an aliens planet or sun. They may see ours. We both can look at the same universe. I think its pretty basic that there is a difference between living organisms and something made.How do you know this? As a theist, I can understand you believing this, but that's just your faith at work again.
No I dont. But they shouldn't go around pretending they are any different to what religion does. Those who believe in science go beyond it being just a science. It can become personal and then a battle between belief and non belief. I believe there is a spiritual battle going on about there being a God and creation and there being no God and self made/man made. Satan wants people to think there is no God and that we can be gods of our own world. So he wants us to think that everything God can do can be done with Him.Do you blame science for this?
That is different to the Christian God. Thor and the many other myths are easily disproved. God was even around before all those false beliefs. But I cant see where science has disproved the Christian God.Science does have a history of disproving many of the claims of God. I am sure when science discovered the real action behind thunder was not the hammer of Thor, people said science is used to discredit God then as well! Now if you have a problem with it; all you gotta do is prove them wrong!
Thats what some say. But many call it a theory. It is the best that science has to explain what they see. There is nothing else. If they havnt got anything then it starts to make God look pretty good as an explanation.Again; multiple Universes is not a scientific theory; just hypotheticals.
The fine tuning of our universe. Science needs there to be many universes to counter this. But what if there is only one universe that is so finely tuned for life. Other things like gravity. Science has come up with an explanation but it maybe that gravity is a part of something bigger. That something bigger may cause science to rethink how they have calculated everything. They say gravity cant account for the amount of matter in the universe in keeping everything in its place. There is something else. They say it might be dark energy.Such as ..
Just here where we are is finely tuned for life. But the entire universe is tuned to allow that life to be where we are now. I believe that the earth is the sweet spot where God created that life and the entire universe is there for us to be able to be here and live.If our Universe is so finely tuned for life, why is there so little life in it?
I dont know maybe. But that is why science needs many other universes. So that ours is not so unique and there is many different ones. Some may be slightly different and have some strange life forms. Some maybe very similar where there is another you and me. Some may be hostile and have not even got off the ground to make anything that resembles a universe like ours.Ill bet if the outcome were different, you would be saying the same thing.
Yeah it is actually called a multiverse but it is also referred to as a multi universe for some reason. The other world used is parallel universes. I realize its a hypothesis. The trouble is that some carry on like its fact. They have to have something to explain what they see. At the moment string theory is the best with a multiverse. This seems to fit best with how they have explained the big bang and quantum physics. The point is a lot of scientists just about believe that this is what happened. They may adjust the theory as time goes by but it is basically the one they have been promoting. If they dont have this then they basically will have to find another idea otherwise they may have to consider God as some scientists have alluded to in jest.Again Uni-verse means 1. If there were more than one, they wouldnt be called Universe, they would call them something else; perhaps multiverses.
You seem to be confusing scientists hypothesizing with actual scientific theory