can you be a "moral" person...
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I agree! Now with that in mind; doesnt this idea of 1 truth that everyone is aware of; but insist on denying sound rather absurd?
Ill bet they said the same thing about thunder and lightening! Science and Atheism will want to have a man made or naturalistic explanation for thunder and lightening .. etc etc. But guess what! Science explained it, and the religions who were unable to adapt to scientific discoveries are not around any more. What does that tell you?
I am reminded of an old saying;
at the end of the day; science can proclaim it has filled many holes once occupied by religion; forcing religion to scamper off looking for new holes to fill
Yesterday they filled the holes of thunder and lightening; now theyve scampered off trying to fill the holes of creation and life! Its just a matter of time before theyre forced to scamper off looking for something else
Ken
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So is it your opinion that everyone is born with Christian values; weather they're christian or not? When they're good they're following their Christian values, when they're bad they are not?
Kn
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One has to wonder; if the Nazi's hated God so much, why did they put "God is with us" (Gott Mit Uns) on their belt buckles?
WW-2 German Belt Buckles Gott Mit uns
[7]
Yeah; that's what they said when the quakers and abolitionist talked about ending slavery! That's what they said when they talked about giving black people their citizenship rights! That's what they said about a lot of things we now know was right.
Different countries have different laws. Initially the US needed Guns to enforce slavery, and to run the Indians off their land; amongst other things. Once you give someone a right, it becomes difficult to take that right away from them. Kinda like trying to put the Genie back into the bottle
K
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I may have to back off a little. I am the only one from my side posting. Where are all the others. Help.
Perhaps they've abandoned your position; for the truth! Something you might wanna consider.
Ken
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The only words uttered to discredit Hitler's Christian beliefs were hearsay by people like Goebbels and Bormann, who had an axe to grind as he was a Protestant! EVERY thing that has been recorded from Hitler's mouth, or from his writings, attested to his belief that he was "doing God's work".
I always find it interesting, though, that theists want to jump quickly to paint Hitler as an atheist. We NEVER hear them utter a word about Adolf's two great partners in crime - Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito.
Why? Because there is absolutely no doubt about their religious faith! Mussolini was a staunch Roman Catholic, while Hirohito was not just a 'believer' - he was regarded as a god himself!
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stevevw
inquisitive
Hitler grew up as a Catholic and he referred to God and the bible as he was making his way into power. But he was a smart politician and he knew he had to keep the church on side as they were the one institution that could give him trouble. But think about it what were his true intentions. He hated the Jews and Jesus was a Jew. Much of the bible is Hebrew and may of the great men in it are Jews.
Once he got into power his true intentions came out. He closed the churches and replaced the bibles and church with his own version of what he wanted to promote which was Mein Kampf. He replace the cross of Jesus with theswastika. He actually changed the bible and took out all the Hebrews words like hallelujah. He replaced the 10 commandments with his own version of 12 commandments.
- Keep the blood pure and your honor holy.
- Maintain and multiply the heritage of your forefathers.
- Joyously serve the people with work and sacrifice.
- Honor your Fuhrer and Master.
It was compiled by members of the OSS, an American spy agency in World War II. The report was called The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches. The documents lay out a step-by-step plan to de-Christianize Germany:
- Take over the churches from within, using party sympathizers.
- Discredit, jail or kill Christian leaders.
- Re-indoctrinate the congregants.
- Give them a new faith in Germanys Third Reich.
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stevevw
inquisitive
It is not my opinion it is what the bible says.
Romans 2:15
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
So our conscience is what makes us guilty according to Gods laws. But all people are sinners even Christians. Its just becoming a Christian you acknowledge this and that you are unworthy before God and ask forgiveness by accepting Christ who died for our sins. When this happens you become more aware of Gods truth and you try to please Him. You have the Holy Spirit living in you so you cannot harbor sin as well. It becomes to much of a conflict and the two dont go together.
When we do bad it is our choice and we are sinning against God and breaking His laws. This world can block the truth of Gods laws/morals. It can substitute God truth with other religions that look good and similar. This world can corrupt the truth with money and power. People can justify their actions by diminishing Gods truth and making mans truth more important. The Gods truth can be lost and hard to see. But when we come to God through Jesus it will be clear and our eyes will be opened by the Holy Spirit.
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stevevw
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Ken-1122
Moses gave the 10 commandments many years ago well before all the history of say the middle ages when we had strange ideas about the world. So we had a knowledge about right and wrong for a long time. That knowledge of right and wrong is the moral truth of God. So when it says thou shall not kill then this has been the case no matter what time period, or culture or lifestyle humans had. When they killed it was wrong and they knew it. They may have justified to themselves or rationalized that it was OK by using their own truths but it was still a wrong against Gods truth.
In fact it is inherent in science to think this. But science could be just pulling apart and explaining Gods creation. It needs to come up with a naturalistic explanation for life and existence yet life and existence has the appearance of design. If we tried to explain anything else in life that had half as much complexity and magnificent design we would say it had a designer. But for some reason with life atheism wants to make it self made and man made.
But as time has gone by we have accumulated knowledge and now we can discover at a rate beyond belief. We can even know that we know that we had seen the world differently and that things change with time and knowledge. So we are compounding what we know and now we are moving closer to the very core of existence with quantum physics and so there isn't to much more to discover as far as big things are.
But what do we discover when we open that door. That our normal way of seeing the world and measuring it is in conflict with this world. It now calls for a different way of thinking. This has caused some to now go in the direction of things beyond our material world. Its like a full circle where scientists showed us the way to the point of existence and now it is finding it hard to comprehend with that way it had seen the world all the way to that door. So it will be interesting to see what else we come up with in the next few years. I think there will be some very exciting discoveries.
No not really. Because a lack of knowledge about science or medicine is just that. There is no inner knowledge that you can have to make a person more smarter and aware of what the correct procedure is for say heart surgery. We had to learn it trough trial and error and studying. But morals are different. If we have an inner knowledge that has always been there then it will basically be the same.
Moses gave the 10 commandments many years ago well before all the history of say the middle ages when we had strange ideas about the world. So we had a knowledge about right and wrong for a long time. That knowledge of right and wrong is the moral truth of God. So when it says thou shall not kill then this has been the case no matter what time period, or culture or lifestyle humans had. When they killed it was wrong and they knew it. They may have justified to themselves or rationalized that it was OK by using their own truths but it was still a wrong against Gods truth.
I agree but religion should have never jumped into bed with science and tried to play the same game. It is never meant to. It is not a science and cannot be proven by scientific evidence. We are here on this earth which is a material world. God is wherever call it heaven, or a spiritual realm. The two are different planes with different realities. Science can explain things but that doesn't mean it also can prove how it came into being. People make the mistake of thinking just because science can attempt to explain something means they also know how it came into existence.
In fact it is inherent in science to think this. But science could be just pulling apart and explaining Gods creation. It needs to come up with a naturalistic explanation for life and existence yet life and existence has the appearance of design. If we tried to explain anything else in life that had half as much complexity and magnificent design we would say it had a designer. But for some reason with life atheism wants to make it self made and man made.
But as time has gone by we have accumulated knowledge and now we can discover at a rate beyond belief. We can even know that we know that we had seen the world differently and that things change with time and knowledge. So we are compounding what we know and now we are moving closer to the very core of existence with quantum physics and so there isn't to much more to discover as far as big things are.
But what do we discover when we open that door. That our normal way of seeing the world and measuring it is in conflict with this world. It now calls for a different way of thinking. This has caused some to now go in the direction of things beyond our material world. Its like a full circle where scientists showed us the way to the point of existence and now it is finding it hard to comprehend with that way it had seen the world all the way to that door. So it will be interesting to see what else we come up with in the next few years. I think there will be some very exciting discoveries.
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The issue isnt trying to prove religions by science; science doesnt even recognize religion. The problem is when it seems that scientific claims contradict religious claims.
If we make the leap and assume something actually came into existence; it is the job of science to figure that out. The problem is, whenever science figures something out, it never includes religion. It should be understandable when religious people find this threatening.
But it always gives explanations that does not include God.
Ever see a coral reef? Who was the intelligent designer behind that? You should never assume that because something looks complex and magnificent; that it must have an intelligent design behind it.
Are you kidding me??? Do you really believe science is running out of things to discover? The more we learn the more we realize we just dont know!
Now that has religion written all over it! When religion provided answers to the unknown, that normal way of seeing and measuring the world was in conflict with reality and science was the new way of thinking.
Science is falsifiable; meaning there must be a scenario whereas it can be proven wrong. Religion is the opposite; religion cannot allow a scenario where it can be proven wrong. Thats why faith is so important with religion; because when reason, logic, and all the facts fly in the face of religion; sometimes faith is the only card you have to play. With science, they will admit they were wrong and change their claims to include this new found information.
Ken
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stevevw
inquisitive
Ken-1122
So science then has to know when that line is crossed. Perhaps at the moment some of the things they are trying to explain with quantum physics is actually looking t Gods creative qualities and science is trying to put an explanation on it. Even with what science knows now with gravity and astrophysics they really dont know the big picture. They have to reconcile relativity with quantum physics so maybe the way they see things now is only part of the picture. What is keeping everything in the universe in its place and balanced out. Its more than gravity. There are other forces at work and maybe this is part of Gods great creative design that has elements to it that are beyond a naturalistic explanation.
What science tries to do sometimes is put a naturalistic explanation on something that may not be that way. This is sort of happening with how they are trying to explain the quantum world, how the universe began, how life began and addressing things like dark energy and matter. They themselves are coming up with some pretty far fetched explanations to address what they have found and it borders on being as beyond the normal physics of how science validates and measures things themselves.
Science also doesn't recognize anything to do with the supernatural or non physical things. But you have said it scientific claims. A scientific claim maybe that miracles cannot happen and there must be another explanation. But science cant completely rule out that a miracle can happen either. Some people make religious claims that are not Biblical based and this is where it comes undone as well. But I can see how science can totally disprove God and belief in Him.
I dont find it threatening and it should be threatening to someone who has a faith in God. If God was proved by science then there would be no need for faith. God would then be here with us and showing His qualities all the time. But then that would be our reality either and maybe it would then be Gods Kingdom. But if we then make the leap and say that God did make something from nothing come into existence then science would not be able to explain it according to the logic and laws it is using now. It would have to allow for some supernatural aspect and therefor it would step outside their field.
So science then has to know when that line is crossed. Perhaps at the moment some of the things they are trying to explain with quantum physics is actually looking t Gods creative qualities and science is trying to put an explanation on it. Even with what science knows now with gravity and astrophysics they really dont know the big picture. They have to reconcile relativity with quantum physics so maybe the way they see things now is only part of the picture. What is keeping everything in the universe in its place and balanced out. Its more than gravity. There are other forces at work and maybe this is part of Gods great creative design that has elements to it that are beyond a naturalistic explanation.
What science tries to do sometimes is put a naturalistic explanation on something that may not be that way. This is sort of happening with how they are trying to explain the quantum world, how the universe began, how life began and addressing things like dark energy and matter. They themselves are coming up with some pretty far fetched explanations to address what they have found and it borders on being as beyond the normal physics of how science validates and measures things themselves.
Yes but some of them are pretty close to being as out there as they say God is. This is because they have to. What they are seeing and trying to explain now are going off the scale of normal physics. The results they are seeing dont make sense sometimes and add up to what they thought they should be with the normal ways they measure things. So now they are having to think outside the circle. This has caused some to come up with some crazy ideas that can make God seem like pretty good explanation.
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stevevw
inquisitive
Ken-1122
[/quote]Are you kidding me??? Do you really believe science is running out of things to discover? The more we learn the more we realize we just dont know![/quote]Of course there will always be something. But when you consider where we were 100 years ago and even 50 years ago we have come a long way. We have gone well beyond just knowing matter and atoms. Now they say there is not really anything much smaller than what we are seeing in the quantum world. We are mapping the genomes of animals and ourselves. We are looking deep into the universe now at even the remains of the big bang. I would say the next 10 or 20 years will bring some pretty spectacular discoveries that will give us some good insight into life and existence. What I am saying is we are now at the door. Before we were walking down the foot path. So what we will see now is all about how existence came into being so it will be ground breaking.Its like with genetics.
They had some broad ideas about genetics only 20 years ago and could give us things like sex and some diseases that maybe were inherent. Now everything is building on this. It is all building the picture of a human. We dont have to work out how to get there to pull it all apart. We are there now and now we have to do the sorting. I read something about some of the findings with the ENCODE research. One person said its like we have opened the cupboard door of an electrical or communications cupboard. In there are all these billions of wires going everywhere and we have to sort out where they all go.
But what is happening in the world of science is interesting. They have come to a point where normal testable explanations cannot suffice. How do you test a multi universe theory to validate it. But the very idea of multi universes states that there will be other living beings and conditions add infinite universes to make it work. Each universe can never be visited as they are in another realm beyond our reality. Doesn't that sound a lot like God.
But we measure absolutely everything in life that way. Logic states that when we look at a complicated computer software of magnificent architectural design we immediately know it has had some design behind it.
[/quote]Are you kidding me??? Do you really believe science is running out of things to discover? The more we learn the more we realize we just dont know![/quote]Of course there will always be something. But when you consider where we were 100 years ago and even 50 years ago we have come a long way. We have gone well beyond just knowing matter and atoms. Now they say there is not really anything much smaller than what we are seeing in the quantum world. We are mapping the genomes of animals and ourselves. We are looking deep into the universe now at even the remains of the big bang. I would say the next 10 or 20 years will bring some pretty spectacular discoveries that will give us some good insight into life and existence. What I am saying is we are now at the door. Before we were walking down the foot path. So what we will see now is all about how existence came into being so it will be ground breaking.Its like with genetics.
They had some broad ideas about genetics only 20 years ago and could give us things like sex and some diseases that maybe were inherent. Now everything is building on this. It is all building the picture of a human. We dont have to work out how to get there to pull it all apart. We are there now and now we have to do the sorting. I read something about some of the findings with the ENCODE research. One person said its like we have opened the cupboard door of an electrical or communications cupboard. In there are all these billions of wires going everywhere and we have to sort out where they all go.
Faith is not a bad thing and it is the only way we can come to God. To pretend otherwise is trying to mix religion and science. What you are saying about the two is a given and there is no controversy there. Religion cant be measured on a scientific basis and just because it cant doesn't mean that it or God is invalid. The moment you start to try and use science to state that religion is false can be as quickly turned around to say then prove there is no God. They can and never will but they should even entertain the idea as well. Its those who want to use science to prove religion as a religion itself that get into trouble. Though I do believe you can support belief with science sometimes its should be the main basis of belief.
But what is happening in the world of science is interesting. They have come to a point where normal testable explanations cannot suffice. How do you test a multi universe theory to validate it. But the very idea of multi universes states that there will be other living beings and conditions add infinite universes to make it work. Each universe can never be visited as they are in another realm beyond our reality. Doesn't that sound a lot like God.
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stevevw
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Ken-1122
But what is happening in the world of science is interesting. They have come to a point where normal testable explanations cannot suffice. How do you test a multi universe theory to validate it. But the very idea of multi universes states that there will be other living beings and conditions add infinite universes to make it work. Each universe can never be visited as they are in another realm beyond our reality. Doesn't that sound a lot like how non believers say how God is.
But we measure absolutely everything in life that way. Logic states that when we look at a complicated computer software or a magnificent architectural design we immediately know it has had some design behind it.
Of course there will always be something. But when you consider where we were 100 years ago and even 50 years ago we have come a long way. We have gone well beyond just knowing matter and atoms. Now they say there is not really anything much smaller than what we are seeing in the quantum world. We are mapping the genomes of animals and ourselves. We are looking deep into the universe now at even the remains of the big bang. I would say the next 10 or 20 years will bring some pretty spectacular discoveries that will give us some good insight into life and existence. It seems we are standing at the door of all these different fields of existence and life at the same time. Before we were walking down the foot path to that door. So what we will see now is all about how existence came into being so it will be ground breaking.
Faith is not a bad thing and it is the only way we can come to God. To pretend otherwise is trying to mix religion and science. What you are saying about the two is a given and there is no controversy there. Religion cant be measured on a scientific basis and just because it cant doesn't mean that it or God is invalid. The moment you start to try and use science to state that religion is false can be as quickly turned around to say then prove there is no God. They can and never will but they should even entertain the idea as well. Its those who want to use science to prove religion as a religion itself that get into trouble. Though I do believe you can support belief with science sometimes its should be the main basis of belief.
But what is happening in the world of science is interesting. They have come to a point where normal testable explanations cannot suffice. How do you test a multi universe theory to validate it. But the very idea of multi universes states that there will be other living beings and conditions add infinite universes to make it work. Each universe can never be visited as they are in another realm beyond our reality. Doesn't that sound a lot like how non believers say how God is.
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Thats because as humans we know the difference between something man made vs nature made. An alien from another planet who has no idea what something man made looks like will probably assume the designer of a tree leaf is the same designer of a dollar bill and assume that because leaves grow on trees; money grows no trees as well!
Science is not in the business of disproving religion or God. They go where the evidence leads them and do not address the plethora of places where evidence does not lead them; religion and God included
The multiple universe theory is just a hypothetical; there is no scientific theory that claims multiple Universes. Even the name Universe means one. (Uni = 1) If there were more than one they would probably call it multiverse; and all of them together would be called the Universe. They have to have something described as all that exists. That is what we call the Universe.
Ken
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stevevw
inquisitive
Ken-1122
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Thats the thing, suddenly we give nature this great ability to be able to create something far greater than the smartest of humans. In fact it has taken and still is taking humans with all the greatest brains and equipment in the world to begin to understand and work out how our genetic code works. After many decades of testing and trying we still cant replicate life in a lab and thats even with all the aided conditions we allow to give it a boost. Bu somehow nature has done all this and 100 times more than any man made design through plain random chance. The odds seem incredible. I think aliens will know the difference as much as we know the difference between something that is man made and something that is living no matter where they come from. There is almost a inbuilt knowledge of Gods creation that is seen by all.
[FONT="]I understand that, But it doesn't stop people from using it to discredit religion God. Evolution is often quoted as a proof that there cant be a God or there doesn't need to be a God. So people do use science as a way to discredit God. It happens on here all the time. For many it goes beyond the science is just science and it just represents a non emotive point of view. It should but it doesn't for many. Its a bit like religion. It becomes a matter of personal beliefs as atheists and believers. Still I dont think anyone can definitely prove there is no God so what some say about there being no God is a sort of belief just like religion.
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But there is very strong belief in string theory and multi universe theory now. Most scientists dont even consider that our universe is the only one. If they did then they are in trouble because it leaves a lot of explaining. In fact it would make a case for God. Because our one universe is so finely tuned and made for life. There are to many things that are so precise to have come from a chaotic random naturalistic process that could have produced a number of many outcomes. So multi universes help spread the uniqueness around so that our special one is just one of billions. So you see they really have to have something along the lines of other universes and realities to explain the things they see. But they are also taking things outside our reality to accommodate this. This is what some accuse God of being outside our reality to explain things about how life was created.
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We didn’t give nature anything. We have never been able to do everything nature has done. We can do more than ever before, but when it comes to creating life, planets, stars; humans can’t do that stuff!
Why does this surprise you?
How do you know this? As a theist, I can understand you believing this, but that's just your faith at work again.
Do you blame science for this?
Science does have a history of disproving many of the claims of God. I am sure when science discovered the real action behind thunder was not the hammer of Thor, people said science is used to discredit God then as well! Now if you have a problem with it; all you gotta do is prove them wrong!
Again; multiple Universes is not a scientific theory; just hypotheticals.
Such as…..
If our Universe is so finely tuned for life, why is there so little life in it?
I’ll bet if the outcome were different, you would be saying the same thing.
Again Uni-verse means 1. If there were more than one, they wouldn’t be called Universe, they would call them something else; perhaps multiverses.
You seem to be confusing scientists hypothesizing with actual scientific theory
Ken
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And yet some say that nature created itself by random chance. If it looks like its designed and it acts like its designed then maybe its designed.
I think nature is nature no matter where it is. We can look out into space and possible see an aliens planet or sun. They may see ours. We both can look at the same universe. I think its pretty basic that there is a difference between living organisms and something made.
No I dont. But they shouldn't go around pretending they are any different to what religion does. Those who believe in science go beyond it being just a science. It can become personal and then a battle between belief and non belief. I believe there is a spiritual battle going on about there being a God and creation and there being no God and self made/man made. Satan wants people to think there is no God and that we can be gods of our own world. So he wants us to think that everything God can do can be done with Him.
That is different to the Christian God. Thor and the many other myths are easily disproved. God was even around before all those false beliefs. But I cant see where science has disproved the Christian God.
Thats what some say. But many call it a theory. It is the best that science has to explain what they see. There is nothing else. If they havnt got anything then it starts to make God look pretty good as an explanation.
The fine tuning of our universe. Science needs there to be many universes to counter this. But what if there is only one universe that is so finely tuned for life. Other things like gravity. Science has come up with an explanation but it maybe that gravity is a part of something bigger. That something bigger may cause science to rethink how they have calculated everything. They say gravity cant account for the amount of matter in the universe in keeping everything in its place. There is something else. They say it might be dark energy.
But what if God does have some hold over everything. Then there is the problem of reconciling relativity with quantum physics. Like I said maybe science is just pulling Gods creation apart and trying to explain it. I believe now that science is at the point of the quantum world and looking into how things come into existence they will come up against more and more things that will contradict what they thought and how they calculate things. It will become harder to explain things and reconcile them to a naturalistic explanation.
Just here where we are is finely tuned for life. But the entire universe is tuned to allow that life to be where we are now. I believe that the earth is the sweet spot where God created that life and the entire universe is there for us to be able to be here and live.
I dont know maybe. But that is why science needs many other universes. So that ours is not so unique and there is many different ones. Some may be slightly different and have some strange life forms. Some maybe very similar where there is another you and me. Some may be hostile and have not even got off the ground to make anything that resembles a universe like ours.
Yeah it is actually called a multiverse but it is also referred to as a multi universe for some reason. The other world used is parallel universes. I realize its a hypothesis. The trouble is that some carry on like its fact. They have to have something to explain what they see. At the moment string theory is the best with a multiverse. This seems to fit best with how they have explained the big bang and quantum physics. The point is a lot of scientists just about believe that this is what happened. They may adjust the theory as time goes by but it is basically the one they have been promoting. If they dont have this then they basically will have to find another idea otherwise they may have to consider God as some scientists have alluded to in jest.
When science and philosophy collide in a 'fine-tuned' universe
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