can you be a "moral" person...

[stevevw]

Ken-1122

But unless the Alien is familiar with every single element on Earth, how is he going to distinguish natural from man made especially when most of the man made stuff is made from natural materials? If he came in contact with a leaf, a dollar bill, a baseball, a gold nugget, or an iron spike; how is he going to know what is man made vs natural?

Well if they had to get here to see that then they would be familiar with building things. That means they will have some knowledge of man made or lien made things. If they have a brain they should be able to work it out. If they can fly here then they are smarter than us. We can tell the difference between a rock and a rock that has been chiseled to form an early cutting tool. Its that obvious. But this is not the point. It all looks like something that has design. Whether its a leaf or a dollar bill it has design. But the leaf has so much more design because it also lives. So not only does it have patterns an texture but internal systems that all work together as part on that design. Its like design within design.

Look at the mimic moth of Malaysian. It has a complete mural scene painted on its wings. So its a designed creature with a designed picture of another designed creature painted on itself to fool predators. Now its one thing to say that the design of living organisms all came about by random chance. But then to say that a complete painted scene just happen to fall into place on the wings on a moth bit by bit by chance is another thing. This just looks like it was designed and the genetics for this were already there within the moths.

http://www.myrmecos.net/2011/08/30/a-mural-on-moth-wings/

 

[Strathos]

Racist? Do elaborate.

He was an advocate of racist policies such as racial profiling in law enforcement.

 

[Eudaimonist]

He was an advocate of racist policies such as racial profiling in law enforcement.

Is there anything more than that? That strikes me as a position that might be motivated by probabilistic arguments.

I personally oppose racial profiling, but I would not assume that someone was racist simply because they were in favor. I'd have to know quite a bit more about that person.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[stevevw]

Ken-1122

I’m not talking about Jesus changing, I’m talking about Christianity changing. The bible is written in a way that it can be interpreted many different ways, and the people who interpret the bible to day interpret it differently than they did yesterday. Yesterday many Christians interpreted the bible in a way that allowed racism, and slavery; today many interpret the bible in a way that allows homosexuality and women preachers!

The bible is clear about what it says if you take the time to study it and do the proper research and referencing. Some people cut corners and quote things out of context by taking little snippets and using them to justify something. But this is done in all walks of life. People take the law and challenge it because they will see it and use it in a way that they choose to because they have other agendas. But there is a truth that can be found. Sometimes you have to do some referencing with other parts of the bible to see what the true meaning is. The church added a lot of things that were not in the bible and they decided that this was OK. The main thing is that we look to Jesus and we need to be born again in the spirit of God. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
Colossians 2:8[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."[/FONT]

Why would 42 billion light years worth of more Universe be difficult to explain?

I dont know, maybe because it would then be taking to many light years for the light to travel to us which would mean that the universe would have to be more than 13.8 billion years old. This would then mean that everything they have calculated was wrong.

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say Planet Earth is fine tuned? When you consider the entire Universe appears to not only be void of life; but is actual hostile to life as we know it; except for a tiny speck known as Planet Earth; this idea that the entire Universe is fine tuned for life sounds ridicules; don’t cha think?

Its not just planet earth being fine tuned for life. If gravity and whatever else keeps all the matter in the universe in its place was ever so slightly different then we would be in trouble as well. If it were a little stronger than things would be sucking into each other. If a little weaker then things would be flying apart. But for things to even get to the point of having an earth that is in a sweet spot other things had to be just right to even make a universe that would have this opportunity. Like with the strong and electromagnetic forces, are responsible for the unusually efficient production of carbon, the element upon which all known life is based. Any small difference and the carbon produced would be different and this would result in an inhospitable universe.
What is the “fine-tuning” of the universe, and how does it serve as a “pointer to God”? | BioLogos

So if intelligent life turned up elsewhere in the Universe; would that convince you that your bible is wrong?

I dont know. That would be something amazing and really make you think about things. But My faith is strong and its not as if I am deluded where I am waiting for something to disprove God. The other thing to consider is I believe Satan will use something like this to deceive people. He has to eventually make an appearance and he needs to make it look like he's some sort of savior or great being that tricks people. He will be able to do great signs and wonders and try to mimic God. The bible talks about him coming down to earth with his fallen angles and there will be great signs in the sky. It even talks about people being tricked and even to the point where some of Gods elect are fooled. So even though this may look very convincing and Christians may seem out of place to continue to have faith in God we have to be careful about these things.

Anyway I was just thinking we may have strayed off topic a bit and I didn't want to go down this line to much.

 

[Strathos]

Is there anything more than that? That strikes me as a position that might be motivated by probabilistic arguments.

I personally oppose racial profiling, but I would not assume that someone was racist simply because they were in favor. I'd have to know quite a bit more about that person.


eudaimonia,

Mark

http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/freedom-rider-christopher-hitchens-white-man

 

[Eudaimonist]

http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/freedom-rider-christopher-hitchens-white-man

When I click on that link, it says that the page is unavailable.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

dp

 

[Euler]

He was an advocate of racist policies such as racial profiling in law enforcement.

That's it? Please explain how that impacted upon his role as an antitheist, which is where my admiration for him lay.

 

[stevevw]

Secular society can have morals. But those morals are subject to interpretations and challenges because they believe in subjective morality. So there is no absolute truth with anything. If someone can make a case good enough to push their point of view then it can take the floor and be considered. A government can do the same and push an agenda as to a moral right or in the name of goodness or a nations rights to protect decency or humane treatment. But they can present a distorted case sometimes. Not include all the facts and make something look a little better than it really is. It doesn't mean they dont have good morals. But it is mixed up with good things and bad things as well. Its all part and parcel of a worldly system of truth and morality.

This is the problem when you dont have any clear and independent set of morals so that we can judge things by. Something thats strong enough to withstand all the corruption and compromise that tries to justify things that may not be really good. We have seen time and time again how society and nations and even the world when united just get it wrong. What some believe to be right turns out wrong and ends up making matters worse. So humans just havnt got the ability and truthfulness to be reliable enough to have control over setting the agenda for what is morally right. Only God through Jesus can do this. Just states that He is the way the TRUTH and the life. So in Him we have the only true judgement of what is right and what is wrong.

 

[Strathos]

When I click on that link, it says that the page is unavailable.


eudaimonia,

Mark

It works fine for me.

That's it? Please explain how that impacted upon his role as an antitheist, which is where my admiration for him lay.

Well anti-theism is a form of bigotry just like racism...

 

[Euler]

It works fine for me.



Well anti-theism is a form of bigotry just like racism...

Bigotry? Against something you don't believe exists?

Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch.

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."

 

[madaz]

stevew-

There has been some debate about this word.
“lion,” rather than “pierced.” In some of these manuscripts “pierced” is a marginal note. On the other hand, there are Hebrew texts that read “pierced,”
The two words are strikingly similar in appearance in the original Hebrew text. The only difference between the word translated “like a lion,” and the one rendered “they pierced” is in the length of the upright vowel stroke on the latter word. The two might easily be confused.

Precisely, it is my assertion that the two words were indeed confused.

 

[stevevw]

madaz

Precisely, it is my assertion that the two words were indeed confused

Thats what I was saying before that you have to do some research to find out the proper meanings and interpretations. You also have to reference things with other parts of the bible to see how they stand up. It is also remarkable how some things are related to other parts of the bible speaking about the same thing in different ways. Yet were written at different times and places.

 

[Strathos]

Bigotry? Against something you don't believe exists?

Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch.

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."

Bigotry against theists. Do you believe theists exist?

 

[madaz]

madaz
Thats what I was saying before that you have to do some research to find out the proper meanings and interpretations. You also have to reference things with other parts of the bible to see how they stand up. It is also remarkable how some things are related to other parts of the bible speaking about the same thing in different ways. Yet were written at different times and places.

If one uses "conclusion first" research, one could easily interpret things to mean a certain thing when they are indeed irrelevant.

It's human nature to find "evidence" of a desired conclusion, when such evidence is scarce or non existent.

 

[stevevw]

If one uses "conclusion first" research, one could easily interpret things to mean a certain thing when they are indeed irrelevant.

It's human nature to find "evidence" of a desired conclusion, when such evidence is scarce or non existent.

If the evidence is scarce or non existent then it wont be supported. Some may want to make it a certain way but if it cant be supported then it wont stand up to scrutiny.

But your not really understanding what I mean. I was talking about the bible supporting the bible for believers and not whether the bible is true according to non believers. Sometimes when someone doesn't understand a verse in the bible you can clarify its meaning by referring to other parts of the bible that will confirm it. Or in the case of prophesy refer to other parts of the bible to support that prophesy. If several parts of the bible support what it said then there is no made up conclusion. The bible itself has made the statement. All that is being done is confirming it with other parts of the same book.

ie the meaning of pieced is confirmed by the fact that it is used in the middle of other verses that speak about Jesus such as they draw lots for his garments and the writer David speaks out my God why have you forsaken me. These were the words of Jesus on the cross and the soldiers also drew lots for His cloths over a 1000 years into the future from when this psalm was written. King David represented the coming of Jesus and has many parallels with Him. So using other verses that support that also reference Jesus we can build support for what the true meaning of the verse represents. So the Hebrew word does mean pieced as in Jesus being pieced and nothing to do with lion as that meaning doesn't go with the rest of what the psalm is referring to. So the surrounding support confirms the meaning of the word and not the word taken in isolation which can be misleading.

So it is cross referencing bible verses even from the old testament to the new and visa versa that we can confirm and get the true meanings. But if you take the verses in isolation you can easily be misguided and get things wrong or out of context and this is what some do when they bring up examples. So if someone says God is an evil God for example because of a verse they see they need to understand what this verse represents in the context of the whole story and even other parts of the bible that will give more understanding why things were the way they were. This is the same for when people try to justify actions in the name of God. This is a good practice with any research in any subject.

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken-1122Well if they had to get here to see that then they would be familiar with building things. That means they will have some knowledge of man made or lien made things. If they have a brain they should be able to work it out. If they can fly here then they are smarter than us. We can tell the difference between a rock and a rock that has been chiseled to form an early cutting tool. Its that obvious. But this is not the point. It all looks like something that has design. Whether its a leaf or a dollar bill it has design. But the leaf has so much more design because it also lives. So not only does it have patterns an texture but internal systems that all work together as part on that design. Its like design within design.

You are making a lot of assumptions; assuming a being from another planet is technologically more advanced than us and would be able to figure a lot of stuff out that we cannot. You don't know that.

Look at the mimic moth of Malaysian. It has a complete mural scene painted on its wings. So its a designed creature with a designed picture of another designed creature painted on itself to fool predators. Now its one thing to say that the design of living organisms all came about by random chance. But then to say that a complete painted scene just happen to fall into place on the wings on a moth bit by bit by chance is another thing. This just looks like it was designed and the genetics for this were already there within the moths.

– A mural on moth wings

An alien would probably assume the moth was just a victim of a person who likes to paint insects.

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken-1122

The bible is clear about what it says if you take the time to study it and do the proper research and referencing. Some people cut corners and quote things out of context by taking little snippets and using them to justify something. But this is done in all walks of life. People take the law and challenge it because they will see it and use it in a way that they choose to because they have other agendas. But there is a truth that can be found. Sometimes you have to do some referencing with other parts of the bible to see what the true meaning is. The church added a lot of things that were not in the bible and they decided that this was OK. The main thing is that we look to Jesus and we need to be born again in the spirit of God.

The bible is a series of small books, and the books do not always agree with each other; what is written in some of the books will even contradict what is written in some of the other books.
People will often quote books and scriptures that will support their agenda, and ignore the books and scriptures that contradict their agenda. Because of that; as mankind evolves; so does Christianity. Just as people’s morals are not the same as they were 100 years ago; neither is christianity.

I dont know, maybe because it would then be taking to many light years for the light to travel to us which would mean that the universe would have to be more than 13.8 billion years old. This would then mean that everything they have calculated was wrong.

Science (unlike religion) is designed to be able to make corrections when it is proven wrong.

Its not just planet earth being fine tuned for life. If gravity and whatever else keeps all the matter in the universe in its place was ever so slightly different then we would be in trouble as well. If it were a little stronger than things would be sucking into each other. If a little weaker then things would be flying apart. But for things to even get to the point of having an earth that is in a sweet spot other things had to be just right to even make a universe that would have this opportunity. Like with the strong and electromagnetic forces, are responsible for the unusually efficient production of carbon, the element upon which all known life is based. Any small difference and the carbon produced would be different and this would result in an inhospitable universe.

Inhospitable to life AS WE KNOW IT! Ever think it might be perfect for life that we are unaware of? There could be intelligent life living on the Sun claiming that life can only exist between the tempatures of 26 and 27 million degrees fahrenheit; and they are looking at Earth claiming the planet is too cold to support any type of life as they know it.

Ken

 

[Euler]

Bigotry against theists. Do you believe theists exist?

Nonsense. The disagreement centers around the VIEWS of those people, not the people themselves. To be antitheist is to attack theism, not theists.

If I attack your political stance as being harmful/unjust/illogical, am I being bigoted?

 

[Ken-1122]

Nonsense. The disagreement centers around the VIEWS of those people, not the people themselves. To be antitheist is to attack theism, not theists.

If I attack your political stance as being harmful/unjust/illogical, am I being bigoted?

Good point! How many times have we heard them say "hate the sin, not the sinner" but as soon as this logic is used on them, they cry bigotry!

K