Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

[Targaryen]

A google search and 10 minutes can yield this information.... Do you have a specific question on apparitions?

Since Rhamiel already answered my question, no.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would generally place them in the same class as weeping crucifixes, bleeding hosts, visions of heaven/hell, and stories of so-and-so in remote place having raised the dead.

That is, I sincerely doubt their authenticity.

The term "hoax" implies an intentional deception or ruse, and so I won't assume that's the case (though it's a valid possibility). I'm usually simply okay with the idea that the human imagination is quite powerful, and people imagine things all the time. Sort of like the face of Jesus on water stains.

I don't put stock into modern claims of visions, miracles, or supernatural phenomenon. Not because I reject such things as possible a priori, but because I would rather be skeptical than taken in.

If God wanted the Blessed Virgin or any one of the saints in heaven to appear before the Faithful He is more than capable of making it happen, it happened on the Mount of Transfiguration with the appearance of Moses and Elijah, God permitted it with the unusual event with Saul and the witch of Endor. But I don't think I should just assume that when someone says X happened I should just believe it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....Satan and his minions can do the same with these "Marian apparitions"?

i guess you didn't look it up in an internet search.

unless hasatan has and uses his own laser-hologram equipment, he has help.

(look it up now)

 

[Rhamiel]

I would generally place them in the same class as weeping crucifixes, bleeding hosts, visions of heaven/hell, and stories of so-and-so in remote place having raised the dead.

That is, I sincerely doubt their authenticity.

The term "hoax" implies an intentional deception or ruse, and so I won't assume that's the case (though it's a valid possibility). I'm usually simply okay with the idea that the human imagination is quite powerful, and people imagine things all the time. Sort of like the face of Jesus on water stains.

I don't put stock into modern claims of visions, miracles, or supernatural phenomenon. Not because I reject such things as possible a priori, but because I would rather be skeptical than taken in.

If God wanted the Blessed Virgin or any one of the saints in heaven to appear before the Faithful He is more than capable of making it happen, it happened on the Mount of Transfiguration with the appearance of Moses and Elijah, God permitted it with the unusual event with Saul and the witch of Endor. But I don't think I should just assume that when someone says X happened I should just believe it.

-CryptoLutheran

I would recommend you read the book Our Lady Of Fatima by Walsh

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

This thought came to my mind....I know about certain Marian apparitions that a lot of Catholics deem to be true but satan himself disguises himself as a angel of light according to the the word of God. Satan and his demons can masquerade as departed loved ones to trick us and wouldn't it be possible Satan and his minions can do the same with these "Marian apparitions"?

Does it have to be strictly either/or? Either all Marian apparitions are real or all are satanic "hoaxes?" What about the possibility of mass hysteria that is genuinely believed but has only psychological, and no spiritual, grounding? What if some are genuine, others are mass hysteria, and others are demonic?

To answer your particular concern, I would be hesitant to call any genuine Marian apparitions demonic. Would Christ allow his sacred mother to be used in such a way? And as for Satan's appearance as an angel of light, I don't think the text in question is actually referring to visions of angelic beings, but rather to the possibility that even the most extraordinarily holy persons (angelic or human) are susceptible to fall. And even if Satan wanted to use Marian for devious purposes, the Catholic Church generally investigates claims of such apparitions (and other miracles); the content of such revelations are checked against existing Catholic practice and cannot alter previous Catholic doctrine.

Could Satan use psychological means like mass hysteria to draw people away from focus on Christ, and even a proper theology of Mary (which always points to Christ), to an ecstatic Mariology focused on visions that point to Mary without pointing to Christ? Sure, I suppose it's possible. But in that case, the problem would not be with Marian devotion as such, but with the disposition of the individual- seeing Mary as an end-in-herself, not as pointing to Christ; a genuinely, for-real Marian apparition could likewise be corrupted if the person was devoted to Mary above Christ.

 

[Rhamiel]

Does it have to be strictly either/or? Either all Marian apparitions are real or all are satanic "hoaxes?" What about the possibility of mass hysteria that is genuinely believed but has only psychological, and no spiritual, grounding? What if some are genuine, others are mass hysteria, and others are demonic?

To answer your particular concern, I would be hesitant to call any genuine Marian apparitions demonic. Would Christ allow his sacred mother to be used in such a way? And as for Satan's appearance as an angel of light, I don't think the text in question is actually referring to visions of angelic beings, but rather to the possibility that even the most extraordinarily holy persons (angelic or human) are susceptible to fall. And even if Satan wanted to use Marian for devious purposes, the Catholic Church generally investigates claims of such apparitions (and other miracles); the content of such revelations are checked against existing Catholic practice and cannot alter previous Catholic doctrine.

Could Satan use psychological means like mass hysteria to draw people away from focus on Christ, and even a proper theology of Mary (which always points to Christ), to an ecstatic Mariology focused on visions that point to Mary without pointing to Christ? Sure, I suppose it's possible. But in that case, the problem would not be with Marian devotion as such, but with the disposition of the individual- seeing Mary as an end-in-herself, not as pointing to Christ; a genuinely, for-real Marian apparition could likewise be corrupted if the person was devoted to Mary above Christ.

I agree with your first point, it is not all or nothing
the Catholic Church recognizes that many of these "visions" might not be real

as for your second point
we know that demons may appear as "angels of light", false miracles, and there will even be false Christs, so I do not think that Mary would be exempt from demonic counterfeits

 

[MoreCoffee]

I like the story of Marie Bernarde "Bernadette" Soubirous at Lourdes. Aside from being a lovely story, like many in scripture, it is also a place of pilgrimage where a number of notable and very surprising healings have been documented. Not just the kind we see on televangelist TV shows, but very well documented healing followed up for many years even decades with the healing being persistent and the original disease being very well documented with xrays and pictures and well attested doctors' reports.

Of course these things do not prove that Bernadette's visions were real but they do add credibility to the story.

If the same standards of proof were asked of biblical miracles then all would fail, there are no pictures (before-during-after) of the parting of the red sea, none of Jesus walking on water, no xrays or the withered hand that was restored, no coroner's report on Lazarus who rose from the dead. Even the resurrection of our Lord relies on hearsay evidence without benefit of pictures and proofs. That's why sceptics and atheists have mocked Christianity as belief in an invisible friend who rose from the dead.

Make what you will of Lourdes and Fatima but remember that the more stringent the tests you demand of these visionaries the more strict must be your testing of the gospels.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

Shouldn't this thread be on the "Mariology" sub-board of GT?

http://www.christianforums.com/f726/
Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints.

It is a rather intersting, but controversial topic.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7304186-21/
Mary Apparitions: Are they demonic?

Originally Posted by JohnChapter14

I don't know why my last topic violated the terms and agreements, as I posted videos and links for people to view and discuss. Anyway here are two links for people to view. Enjoy.

About Mary
Our Lady of Emmitsburg Cult Watch - Apparitions Divine or Demonic?
.
​

.

 

[Rhamiel]

there is this idea that "everybody is entitled to an opinion"
like, in some regards that is true
but if you do not really study these apparitions, then your opinion is one of ignorance.

the idea that the Miracle of the Sun that happened in Fatima was just some mass hallucination is unfounded, many people who were atheists saw it, many people who were several cities away saw it.
At the time, even the secular press of Portugal, that was VERY hostile to religion, did not deny that something happened, they just tried to blame it on the Aurora Borealis or other implausible naturalistic phenomenon

the healings and the Miracle of the Sun, the prophetic nature of the young visionaries (knowing that Francisco and Jacinta would die very young while Lucia would live to an old age) shows the supernatural nature of the visions

the fact that the visions encouraged
faith in Christ
prayers for the conversion of sinners
prayers for peace
encouraging modesty
shows that they are not from the Devil

I do not believe that the devil could tell people to pray to God, Satan is totally opposed to God

I understand why Protestants want to shrug these facts off
it is very disturbing for you if they are real
it would mean you would have to reassess your theology and how you live your life
it might mean you have some serious changes to make
that is scary
it is easier to just not think about it

it is easier to use psudo-racist ideas from an earlier age "oh those southern European people are so emotional, they get confused easily, they are not used to rational thinking like us people of northern European ancestry"
that was a VERY common way to look at things in the past, look at the 1800's and early 1900's, the ideas that were popular like social Darwinism, Eugenics, Manifest Destiny.
Even the Progressive Teddy Roosevelt had a lot of backwards ideas about "uncivilized nations"

 

[Defensor Christi]

I would generally place them in the same class as weeping crucifixes, bleeding hosts, visions of heaven/hell, and stories of so-and-so in remote place having raised the dead.

That is, I sincerely doubt their authenticity.

The term "hoax" implies an intentional deception or ruse, and so I won't assume that's the case (though it's a valid possibility). I'm usually simply okay with the idea that the human imagination is quite powerful, and people imagine things all the time. Sort of like the face of Jesus on water stains.

I don't put stock into modern claims of visions, miracles, or supernatural phenomenon. Not because I reject such things as possible a priori, but because I would rather be skeptical than taken in.

If God wanted the Blessed Virgin or any one of the saints in heaven to appear before the Faithful He is more than capable of making it happen, it happened on the Mount of Transfiguration with the appearance of Moses and Elijah, God permitted it with the unusual event with Saul and the witch of Endor. But I don't think I should just assume that when someone says X happened I should just believe it.

-CryptoLutheran

I think a crucial point is being missed in this conversation...the Catholic Church does not just "willy-nilly" approve a Marian apparation. There are processes and criteria needed for it to be approved...it isnt as if every person who sees the Blessed Virgin in a piece of toast gets approval...

 

[Targaryen]

I think a crucial point is being missed in this conversation...the Catholic Church does not just "willy-nilly" approve a Marian apparation. There are processes and criteria needed for it to be approved...it isnt as if every person who sees the Blessed Virgin in a piece of toast gets approval...

I don't think anyone is implying that either. however, you can forgive some of us for having a bit of cynicism when it comes to visitations.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I don't think anyone is implying that either. however, you can forgive some of us for having a bit of cynicism when it comes to visitations.

Of course I do, again no one (Catholic or non) is required to believe them...while it may not be directly implied, I think it is important to point out that the Church takes a lot of steps to protect the faithful...

 

[BobRyan]

This thought came to my mind....I know about certain Marian apparitions that a lot of Catholics deem to be true but satan himself disguises himself as a angel of light according to the the word of God. Satan and his demons can masquerade as departed loved ones to trick us and wouldn't it be possible Satan and his minions can do the same with these "Marian apparitions"?

They are all a hoax whether the imagination of the one reporting them or the magician's trick pulled off by Satan.

We know this because of Isaiah 8:19-20

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rhamiel]

They are all a hoax whether the imagination of the one reporting them or the magician's trick pulled off by Satan.

We know this because of Isaiah 8:19-20

in Christ,

Bob

does this disprove the Gospel account of Moses and Elijah appearing on the mount along with Jesus?
well Elijah would not have been dead, because he was taken up into heaven while still alive....
but Moses would have been long dead

the Catholic Church has always preached against magicians and spiritualists

 

[Albion]

For any who wanted me to expand on my earlier answer to the question of the thread, this would be it. There's really nothing more to add. My thanks to Via Crucis.

I would generally place them in the same class as weeping crucifixes, bleeding hosts, visions of heaven/hell, and stories of so-and-so in remote place having raised the dead.

That is, I sincerely doubt their authenticity.

The term "hoax" implies an intentional deception or ruse, and so I won't assume that's the case (though it's a valid possibility). I'm usually simply okay with the idea that the human imagination is quite powerful, and people imagine things all the time. Sort of like the face of Jesus on water stains.

I don't put stock into modern claims of visions, miracles, or supernatural phenomenon. Not because I reject such things as possible a priori, but because I would rather be skeptical than taken in.

If God wanted the Blessed Virgin or any one of the saints in heaven to appear before the Faithful He is more than capable of making it happen, it happened on the Mount of Transfiguration with the appearance of Moses and Elijah, God permitted it with the unusual event with Saul and the witch of Endor. But I don't think I should just assume that when someone says X happened I should just believe it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

They are all a hoax whether the imagination of the one reporting them or the magician's trick pulled off by Satan.

We know this because of Isaiah 8:19-20

does this disprove the Gospel account of Moses and Elijah appearing on the mount along with Jesus?
well Elijah would not have been dead, because he was taken up into heaven while still alive....
but Moses would have been long dead

Moses is referenced in the book of Jude where we find a quote from the book "The Assumption of Moses" regarding the dispute between Michael and the devil over the right to resurrect the body of Moses. That dispute ends in the assumption of Moses bodily into heaven.

As for the RCC and spirits, witches, mediums and "conjure up for me whomever I shall name - by thy familiar spirit" - well the Bible condemns that sort of thing saying that those who did it in the OT in the land of Israel's theocracy - were doomed.

But very often when you get to a subject like this one RC member or another will appeal to the seance of 1Sam 28 held by a witch to try and make their case in favor of their doctrine.

I would argue that the witch was sadly mistaken.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rhamiel]

Moses is referenced in the book of Jude where we find a quote from the book "The Assumption of Moses" regarding the dispute between Michael and the devil over the right to resurrect the body of Moses. That dispute ends in the assumption of Moses bodily into heaven.

As for the RCC and spirits, witches, mediums and "conjure up for me whomever I shall name - by thy familiar spirit" - well the Bible condemns that sort of thing saying that those who did it in the OT in the land of Israel's theocracy - were doomed.

But very often when you get to a subject like this one RC member or another will appeal to the seance of 1Sam 28 held by a witch to try and make their case in favor of their doctrine.

I would argue that the witch was sadly mistaken.

in Christ,

Bob

yes, in the OT Israel (not sure if you can call it a theocracy because the office of King was separate from the office of Priest) people who worked witchcraft were doomed

do you know where else they were doomed?
in the holy kingdoms of Christendom through the Middle Ages
I mean, we burned a LOT of witches at the stake, you can not really doubt the devotion of the Catholic Church in fighting against witchcraft.
those Christian Kings also protected the Lords Day from those who would desecrate it with menial labor and course commerce

but that is a topic for another day

 

[BobRyan]

yes, in the OT Israel (not sure if you can call it a theocracy because the office of King was separate from the office of Priest) people who worked witchcraft were doomed

do you know where else they were doomed?
in the holy kingdoms of Christendom through the Middle Ages
I mean, we burned a LOT of witches at the stake, you can not really doubt the devotion of the Catholic Church in fighting against witchcraft.
those Christian Kings also protected the Lords Day from those who would desecrate it with menial labor and course commerce

but that is a topic for another day

I would be the last one to accuse the RCC of killing too few people in the dark ages. you will get no argument from me on that one.

My point is that one cannot engage in the practice of the witches as if "it were a good thing" so long as "witch" is not the name used.

For example --

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

..

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would generally place them in the same class as weeping crucifixes, bleeding hosts, visions of heaven/hell, and stories of so-and-so in remote place having raised the dead.

That is, I sincerely doubt their authenticity.

The term "hoax" implies an intentional deception or ruse, and so I won't assume that's the case (though it's a valid possibility). I'm usually simply okay with the idea that the human imagination is quite powerful, and people imagine things all the time. Sort of like the face of Jesus on water stains.

I don't put stock into modern claims of visions, miracles, or supernatural phenomenon. Not because I reject such things as possible a priori, but because I would rather be skeptical than taken in.

If God wanted the Blessed Virgin or any one of the saints in heaven to appear before the Faithful He is more than capable of making it happen, it happened on the Mount of Transfiguration with the appearance of Moses and Elijah, God permitted it with the unusual event with Saul and the witch of Endor. But I don't think I should just assume that when someone says X happened I should just believe it.

-CryptoLutheran

Tradition lends a lot of credibility to otherwise improbable claims. The four canonical gospels are full of improbable events yet Christians accept them. Objectively considered there is not a great deal of independent corroborative evidence for the improbabilities in the gospels yet Christian believe them. Some of the accounts of Marian apparitions are better attested by independent sources.

 

[BobRyan]

Who is the "Divine Mother" in this link?

Apparitions pictures | Voice and Echo of the Divine Mother