Joseph Prince?

[Andrea411]

Since the answer to what sinning is may not be clear to some.... I'll state it.
"Yes" committing a sin certainly IS breaking one of God's laws. And it demands payment. But here is where so many of us miss the boat.....

What is the payment for committing one of those "sins". (The "punishment"?)

Well, we are fortunate in that the Bible clearly spells that out. And the Biblically required punishment is different for each sin. Sometimes we just have to pay some money. Sometimes it is stricter. But, NEVER, is the Biblically required payment for a specific sin ever more severe than simply physical death. "No", even though some of us will come right out and stubbornly declare that is a lie... you can easily open your own Bible, and look it up for yourself.

The maximum punishment for committing a sin (breaking God's law) is nothing more than PHYSICAL death. It is not SPIRITUAL death. It is NOT separation from God in a burning lake of fire.

And that is what Jesus paid for. He DID NOT pay for our overall state of sin... the unbelief in Him. That still hangs over an unbeliever's head.
What Jesus paid for was the ever-lasting death in the grave of believers. He did not remain dead in the grave (He NEVER Spiritually died, nor was He ever, for a moment, separated from God... "No", not even at that point of His "QUESTION "on the cross that you are just itching to point out.), and neither will believers.

I think I see what you're saying. ?? Its not my understanding?? Do you have a link to a teaching or a book? Interesting bc 'the wrath of God' does not line up with the love of God and God on the cross and Father God pouring out wrath on His son.

…7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.…

…IS 55:4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.…

???no time got to run, thanks, andrea

 

[Willie T]

That is exactly what false grace teaches... that once we are saved, what we sow is not what we are going to reap if we sow to the flesh (Galatians 6:7,8), and who needs to actually walk with God cause after all... we are saved no matter what we do!

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

When God says if someone lives after the flesh they shall die... that means they will not be spending eternity with the Father. God's definition of death is being carnally minded

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As pointed out in Romans 8... there IS in fact condemnation if one walks after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

No wonder the modern church is so weak and ineffective... most Christians live just like those who don't know Jesus

None of that states what the Bible clearly says are the required punishments for various sins.

 

[Willie T]

I think I see what you're saying. ?? Its not my understanding?? Do you have a link to a teaching or a book? Interesting bc 'the wrath of God' does not line up with the love of God and God on the cross and Father God pouring out wrath on His son.Part of your puzzlement might be because you have possible been taught that God's wrath was poured out on Jesus. It was not.
Jesus "became" sin and experienced the consequences of that for us. But God's part in this was not punishing Jesus, at all, but rather rescuing Him.

…7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.…

…IS 55:4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.…

???no time got to run, thanks, andrea

Sorry about the rest, but I don't do a flood of questions too well. I prefer to stay focused on a point till we have gotten it clearly nailed down and understood.

 

[rick357]

Just a few things to consider: the phrase original sin is a statement of theology not scripture. Which is not a bad thing if it helps us have a better understanding of scripture but when it blurs understanding it should be restated. God did not tell Adam when you eat you will sin he said you will die.though it would take years for death to take Adam from this world this death was imediate and his seed died with him(thats us) death is the plant sin is the seed as the plant abides it produces seed that seed grows more death. Adam passed the plant to us we produced our own seed. By this we see christ did die for our sins but also brought us from death to life.

 

[Andrea411]

Sorry about the rest, but I don't do a flood of questions too well. I prefer to stay focused on a point till we have gotten it clearly nailed down and understood.

yes, that was what I had been taught but in reading those scriptures, you were correct, it does not say God's wrath was poured out on Him. It says 'we esteemed Him smitten of God'... and that God's wrath was for us not for Him. I have to spend some time to study this bc it is important.
It is one of the arguments I see from atheists about our God... so one way or the other I'd like to be clear on it. Thanks again.

God bless, andrea

 

[Willie T]

yes, that was what I had been taught but in reading those scriptures, you were correct, it does not say God's wrath was poured out on Him. It says 'we esteemed Him smitten of God'... and that God's wrath was for us not for Him. I have to spend some time to study this bc it is important.
It is one of the arguments I see from atheists about our God... so one way or the other I'd like to be clear on it. Thanks again.

God bless, andrea

It IS important, and Jesus WAS punished, and sin always requires a payment (which Christ gave for believers).

But the problem is that just the way we want to blame Jesus for a little child's death, we want to jump over clear scripture, and blame God for what Jesus had to endure to purchase us.

We tend to misperceive a lot that honestly isn't in Scripture anywhere..... Like the way Adam KNEW God was angry with him. Where does the Bible say that? It doesn't.... but that did not keep Adam from THINKING it. And, we have run, headlong, with the idea that God is angry with us.... despite all sorts of Scripture plainly saying He isn't.

 

[Willie T]

I like the fact that you so correctly spotted the word "esteemed" in Isaiah. The Scripture does NOT say, "He WAS", but that "we esteemed ('thought') He was."...... when He was not.

Same thing when Jesus ASKED that question on the cross, that His sin-blasted body and mind "thought" was reality, the same way Adam and we, "THOUGHT" we knew what we were seeing and experiencing........ because we think (perceive God) through a veil of sin that clouds our vision and logic.

Satan didn't just get us to eat an apple, he messed up our understanding and perception of God, something fierce.

 

[rick357]

I like the fact that you so correctly spotted the word "esteemed" in Isaiah. The Scripture does NOT say, "He WAS", but that "we esteemed ('thought') He was."...... when He was not.

Same thing when Jesus ASKED that question on the cross, that His sin-blasted body and mind "thought" was reality, the same way Adam and we, "THOUGHT" we knew what we were seeing and experiencing........ because we think through a veil of sin that clouds our vision and logic.

Satan didn't just get us to eat an apple, he messed up our understanding and perception of God, something fierce.

Jesus said and this is life that they may know you. Reason is death trying to explain life darkness trying to explain light. Hard to do when death and darkness are destroyed when they come in contact with life and light

 

[Willie T]

I have on my computer, a piece of trash that I should delete, but I don't because it was so important to the first "Great Awakening" movement way back in history.

It is a sermon called Sinners in The Hands of an Angry God. You might want to look it up, and read it. If you do, notice the constant focus Edwards puts upon God "DOING" all sorts of evil to men.

And we wonder why our minds have been so trained to think this way.

 

[rick357]

I like the fact that you so correctly spotted the word "esteemed" in Isaiah. The Scripture does NOT say, "He WAS", but that "we esteemed ('thought') He was."...... when He was not.

Same thing when Jesus ASKED that question on the cross, that His sin-blasted body and mind "thought" was reality, the same way Adam and we, "THOUGHT" we knew what we were seeing and experiencing........ because we think (perceive God) through a veil of sin that clouds our vision and logic.

Satan didn't just get us to eat an apple, he messed up our understanding and perception of God, something fierce.

To the question on the cross remember when they asked Jesus about paying taxes he asked about whose image was on the coin. He was telling them by allowing them to "catch his drift" that since they bore the image of God they should give themselves to God. In the same way on the cross he was sending them to psalm 22. It was not a question but a way oof saying I am messiah and what I am doing is for the praise and glory of God. My God has not and will not leave me and I will establish salvation for men...talk about a differant take. Read psalm 22 considering what he was suffering he is the greatest evanglist ever.

 

[Willie T]

To the question on the cross remember when they asked Jesus about paying taxes he asked about whose image was on the coin. He was telling them by allowing them to "catch his drift" that since they bore the image of God they should give themselves to God. In the same way on the cross he was sending them to psalm 22. It was not a question but a way oof saying I am messiah and what I am doing is for the praise and glory of God. My God has not and will not leave me and I will establish salvation for men...talk about a differant take. Read psalm 22 considering what he was suffering he is the greatest evanglist ever.

You seem to get it. Yes, Ps 22 is definitely a prophesy of the words Jesus would say on the cross.

 

[rick357]

You seem to get it. Yes, Ps 22 is definitely a prophesy of the words Jesus would say on the cross.

Yes a prophesy but much more. Jesus taught with the style his audiance was use to. That style was to bring the student to a conclusion by trying to see where in scripture the teacher was drawing his conclusion from. So the question was possed and the teacher would say as it is written or make an allusion like with the coin. Then the student was to go to the original scripture take it in its original context and see how the teacher had applied it to the current context while carefull not to change the original. In this way complex biblical concepts could be discussed without as many words as I use. Now Jesus could do this because his audiance had been learning the text and memorizing the text from five years old to fourteen or fifteen for the less educated much less weekly worship temple worship feast days and discussion for enjoyment. We dont have this base so many things go unnoticed or misunderstood...next time you study and Jesus or one of his apostles refer to a scripture go back and try this process talk about enriched study...oh do it with the exchange at the temptation wow!!! God bless

 

[Gunny]

Jesus taught with the style his audiance was use to. That style was to bring the student to a conclusion by trying to see where in scripture the teacher was drawing his conclusion from.

Amen and amen.


"And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven".

Matthew 18:3-4
NIV

 

[RychusRkr]

I'm amen-ing with Ted in this discussion. Although many good points are made by others.
I was taught and believed once saved, always saved at the Grace Church where I was going to for years. My stepchildren got it in kid's church and when they got older proceeded to (and still do) like a totally ungodly life (alcohol, fornication, and such things). I myself was definetly NOT seeking God's will for my life, given over to entertainment and even dabbling with some sinnage. (never stopped going to church.. hoo hoo!) 2 things happened: I read 'Heaven is So Real' and in it Choo Thomas described the fate of lukewarm and backslidden Christians... (not good). And heard singer Ray Boltz descent into a homosexual life with the explanation that is that 'who he was' and he's saved by grace anyway. So prayerfully I started a good read through the entire New Testamant and lo and Behold, there is NO WAY the New Testament teaches 'osas' and NO WAY teaches that Grace is a free ride to heaven no matter what we do or believe as long as we 'said the prayer'.
I'd have to get the invisible grace eraser and erase MYRIADS of New Testament verses for this to be true. I just opened my bible to Hebrews 3:6 'who's house we are IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end'
There's a bunch of "IF" scriptures. NO there is NO works we can do to earn our salvation at all ever. But we have to obey the Spirit's call to holiness without which NO MAN will see the Lord. I don't think every time we sin we lose our salvation or risk hell but if we harden our hearts and don't continue in Christ and pursue sin, yes, the bible teaches were in risk of going the wrong place....

keep studying!!

 

[RychusRkr]

Grace Church is actually the name of the church I was going to. It is a great church, and I was told the pastor has actually recanted on his belief that once saved always saved. Thank God for His Grace!!! It's the free gift of His power (Charis) that enables me to be saved, live a holy life and have the empowerment I need to do His will. What grace is not is a 'go to heaven' coupon so I can party here on earth, have a good time playin' around with the world and when I die show my ticket at the door, reserved seat, I'm in. No it is God's manifested presence in our lives to those who accept by the obedience of faith. He didn't said in the Book of Revelation that 'all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire except for saved liars who said the sinners prayer'. Grace gives me his empowerment NOT to be a liar!!

 

[Andrea411]

I'm amen-ing with Ted in this discussion. Although many good points are made by others.
I was taught and believed once saved, always saved at the Grace Church where I was going to for years. My stepchildren got it in kid's church and when they got older proceeded to (and still do) like a totally ungodly life (alcohol, fornication, and such things). I myself was definetly NOT seeking God's will for my life, given over to entertainment and even dabbling with some sinnage. (never stopped going to church.. hoo hoo!) 2 things happened: I read 'Heaven is So Real' and in it Choo Thomas described the fate of lukewarm and backslidden Christians... (not good). And heard singer Ray Boltz descent into a homosexual life with the explanation that is that 'who he was' and he's saved by grace anyway. So prayerfully I started a good read through the entire New Testamant and lo and Behold, there is NO WAY the New Testament teaches 'osas' and NO WAY teaches that Grace is a free ride to heaven no matter what we do or believe as long as we 'said the prayer'.
I'd have to get the invisible grace eraser and erase MYRIADS of New Testament verses for this to be true. I just opened my bible to Hebrews 3:6 'who's house we are IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end'
There's a bunch of "IF" scriptures. NO there is NO works we can do to earn our salvation at all ever. But we have to obey the Spirit's call to holiness without which NO MAN will see the Lord. I don't think every time we sin we lose our salvation or risk hell but if we harden our hearts and don't continue in Christ, yes, the bible teaches were in risk of going the wrong place....

keep studying!!

I believe the faith keeps us as long as we desire to be kept. Sin will hardened our hearts until we don't care. God never walks away from us but I believe we can walk away from Him. As long as we are still in the struggle, still battling, God who began a good work in us is able to keep us but knowing people who turned into sin, choosing to willfully sin. They usually don't stay around Jesus - they choose their own way.

 

[RychusRkr]

Amen Andrea411.

good meeting you,,

in Christ,

 

[RychusRkr]

I hope to never be one of these doctrine basher, so called discernment minister, heresy hunters etc. just cause someone doesn't have the same revelation in the word as I do. As long as you believe in Jesus, the Son of God, born of a virgin who died for our sins and not just blatently living in sin and trying to get me to accept it as OK (yes i refer to the group you think I'm refering to). we can have fellowship. I love to teach, discuss maybe a little debate. but I hate to argue the Word. It is too preceous to me to be reduced to an argument. The Word of God is God's love gift to me in the form of Jesus Christ to be cherished, devoured (spiritual nourshment) taugh and shared and lived but not argued.... amen?

 

[RychusRkr]

whenever I hear someone use that word coined by the middle ages catholic church to justify the killing of anyone who didn't adhere to their so called doctrines I turn them off quicker than a leaky toilet. Ever see their websites? Only 3 people are going to heaven, them and maybe their dog and parrot..
'heresy hunters' ... . shut up...

(sorry )

God love them...

 

[hhodgson]

I hope to never be one of these doctrine basher, so called discernment minister, heresy hunters etc. just cause someone doesn't have the same revelation in the word as I do. As long as you believe in Jesus, the Son of God, born of a virgin who died for our sins and not just blatantly living in sin and trying to get me to accept it as OK (yes i refer to the group you think I'm referring to). we can have fellowship. I love to teach, discuss maybe a little debate. but I hate to argue the Word. It is too precious to me to be reduced to an argument. The Word of God is God's love gift to me in the form of Jesus Christ to be cherished, devoured (spiritual nourishment) taught and shared and lived but not argued.... amen?

Hello RychusRkr, and welcome to our forum... (and a big AMEN!)

You will find that there are several "seasoned" brothers and sisters on this forum that DO believe their salvation is Eternally Securred... myself included. Not "ALL" of us believe this, however. We have done, did, and do debate on this subject... among many others in which we do not all agree. What WE do agree is... that we LOVE one another as John stated in... (1 John 3:23). You will also find that even on some WoF issues... that we don't all agree on.

Your quote above is excellent and shows you walk in His LOVE. We would LOVE to have you as a regular.

Thank God for His Grace!!! It's the free gift of His power (Charis) that enables me to be saved, live a holy life and have the empowerment I need to do His will. What grace is not is a 'go to heaven'
coupon so I can party here on earth, have a good time playin' around with the world and when I die show my ticket at the door, reserved seat, I'm in.

Once again... AMEN! You won't find any disagreements on what you're saying here. Yes... Thank God for His Grace... and His MERCY. I compare them to a coin. His Grace on one side gives us what we do not deserve... and Mercy on the other side does not give us what we really do deserve.

Once again... Welcome

Harry...

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