Catholics in Malaysia refer to God as Allah

[LivingWordUnity]

USA
France
Germany
Netherlands
Mexico
Switzerland
Russia
Take your time.

Russia has recently gone back to Christianity. But many of the countries you list do not have a government that considers itself Christian. Just off the top of my head, France officially renounced her Christian identity hundreds of years ago with the French Revolution. And the United States, following in the spirit of the French Revolution, has always been a mixture of different religions. The current POTUS even declared to the world that the United States is not a Christian nation. The French Revolution led to the apostasy of Western Europe and Western countries as a whole.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Muslims reject the idea of Jesus being the son of God.

I had that argument with a Muslim years ago.

They believe him to be a prophet, 2nd to Mohammed.

They believe Mary was his mother, but I don't believe they accept her perpetual virginity, nor the virgin birth of Jesus.



Jim

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Muslims reject the idea of Jesus being the son of God.

I had that argument with a Muslim years ago.

They believe him to be a prophet, 2nd to Mohammed.

They believe Mary was his mother, but I don't believe they accept her perpetual virginity, nor the virgin birth of Jesus.

In the Koran, it specifically tells Christians that we must renounce our faith in the Holy Trinity. If only Muslims didn't have the false prophet Muhammad and his false teachings. I have no doubt that Muhammad was inspired by the Devil. The Koran is mostly a "how to" book on fighting against Christians and Jews and conquering the world through war. The tolerant parts are at the beginning because they were written before Muhammad started to become successful as a conquering warlord.

 

[RDKirk]

Especially since Dieu comes from Deus which comes from Deyus, the name of a Pagan god.
And 'god' has described pagan gods long before Christianity reached the English people. .

Greek term in the NT for God is Theos, which referred for the ancient Greeks to an otherwise unknown god who was the creator of all things--apart from Zeus who was a god of particular properties, but not the original creator. We could call that "unknown god" a pagan god, except that Paul identified him specifically as being the true God.

The sources I've studied indicate that Deus is derived from Zeus.

 

[RDKirk]

In the Koran, it specifically tells Christians that we must renounce our faith in the Holy Trinity. If only Muslims didn't have the false prophet Muhammad and his false teachings. I have no doubt that Muhammad was inspired by the Devil. The Koran is mostly a "how to" book on fighting against Christians and Jews and conquering the world.

Spend some time with some more scholarly Muslims.

I'm not denying that the Koran is false in its totality, but if most of what you know about the Koran is distilled from either Muslim Islamists or Christian anti-Islamists, that's not all there is to understand about the Koran.

Both are like learning the gospel from a Ku Klux Klansman. And you want to learn about the Koran without conflation with the Hadith (which is the way Islam is taught to disciples).

 

[RDKirk]

Muslims reject the idea of Jesus being the son of God.

I had that argument with a Muslim years ago.

They believe him to be a prophet, 2nd to Mohammed.

They believe Mary was his mother, but I don't believe they accept her perpetual virginity, nor the virgin birth of Jesus.



Jim

And there are a lot of Christians who would argue you into the ground about things that aren't even in the bible.

I've seen arguments here between from Catholics who don't accept Church doctrine.

So just because you had that argument with a Muslim doesn't mean he knows what the Koran actually says.

 

[MikeK]

Russia has recently gone back to Christianity. But many of the countries you list do not have a government that considers itself Christian. Just off the top of my head, France officially renounced her Christian identity hundreds of years ago with the French Revolution. And the United States, following in the spirit of the French Revolution, has always been a mixture of different religions. The current POTUS even declared to the world that the United States is not a Christian nation. The French Revolution led to the apostasy of Western Europe and Western countries as a whole.

So we're clear, are you saying that of USA
France
Germany
Netherlands
Mexico
Switzerland
and Russia,
Russia is a Christian nation and the others are not, is that right? I need clarity from you here, as oy a few posts ago you were lamenting that "liberals" are guilty of the old bait and switch.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It's the kind of nuttiness which turns people away from religion.

When unbelievers see American Christians who have no clue about the Arabic language, arguing over the word Allah,
it fuels their stereotypical view that Christianity is the religion of fools.

Jim

Very true - and it's sadder whenever others may not realize that they do end up making Christianity out to look foolish. t's bad enough whenever others seem to be ignorant of the etymology of words and the basic reality that Arabic Christians have been using the term "Allah" to describe God Almighty for centuries - long before the development of Islam. But to make war on the issue and go forward built on that ignorance of what terms actually mean to people while demonizing them....that is not in line with scripture. It may be based in good intentions or zeal - but it is still a lack of wisdom (Proverbs 19:2).

For the 10 to 12 million Arab Christians today - they have been calling God ‘Allah’ in their Bibles, hymns, poems, writings, and worship for over nineteen centuries. Whether folks like it or not, what an insult to them when we tell them not to use this word ‘Allah’! - especially with all of the things they have been enduring, be it in Lybia, Syria, Iraq or other nations. Just as I do not stop using the word "God" in English because many false sects also use that same word (and the term "God" itself came from pagan roots ), I do not need to stop using the word "Allah" just because the Qur'an uses the same word - AND ultimately, I need to show Muslims the true identity of Allah in the Bible, instead of fighting with them over semantics, and therefore never getting to the real issues.

As another noted wisely:

The Christian Bible in Arabic uses the name "Allah" where the English uses "God" so if I was a Christian whose first language was Arabic than how am I to know the difference? "Allah" is actually a better representation of the name of God then "God" is. Portions of the Bible are written in Aramaic and in Aramaic "God" is "Elahh" which corresponds to the Hebrew "Elowahh" all translated in English as "God". The name "God" has more pagan roots than "Allah" does. I agree that today it is represented differently and somewhat disconnected with its roots but this expose that cultural ignorance is important in determining a words meaning and if a culture disconnects a word's actual meaning and applies its own than their applied meaning is what is significant not its actual meaning. This goes back to Christian substitutes using "goodness" or "gosh" in replace of "God" but those words have the same meaning we are just ignorant to this and because it is accepted in Christian communities we are fine with it satisfied that there is no sin.

This is the point I am making... to a Christian we speak a different language, we use the same words but the words have different meaning. To a non-christian the same words may be disconnected from the meaning that we as Christians associated them with. The non-Christian uses them but should they be accused with using God's name in vain when they don't have any understanding of the word?

Of course what's occurring in Malaysia with the long term battles (more in New controversy erupts over use of word 'Allah' by Malaysia Christians, Ecumenical News and Malaysia Catholics allowed to call God 'Allah' again. Why the fuss? - CSMonitor.com and "There is no God but Allah:" An Indonesian-Christian Reading on Miroslav Volf’s “Allah: A Christian Response” | Hans Harmakaputra - Academia.edu and http://www.eccmsia.org/articles/why-i-use-allah-a-laymans-perspective) is unfortunate when it comes to certain Muslims in political positions trying to keep other Christians from using the term "Allah" to describe God. Not all Muslims have been in agreement, just as not all are in agreement with the actions of extremists and those promoting terrorism - but many take that situation with what's happening there and assume "See!!! Even Muslims know that you can't be a Christian and call God Allah!!" ....and yet that'd be no different than claiming "See!! Even Christians understand that Blacks are inferior!!!" when it came to many claiming Christ but being ignorant of the Scriptures and what CHrist said when it came to the KKK, burning crosses and Jim Crow/Black Codes being used against others.....


indeed, as you noted, we need not trip nor make things up that make Christians look foolish when it comes to making claims over etymology which are not true - and of course, just as it'd be off to argue in claiming in ignorance that Christians cannot call God Allah (as the Bible doesn't forbid it), the same dyanmic would also apply to other concepts taught within Christianity which were later echoed in the Quran. For it's very pointless whenever others choose to speak on the issue of how to see Islam and yet don't actually address the Muslims who do not fit the stereotypes they fit - nor do they deal with the Quran where it actually confirms what Jesus already noted in the Gospels (be it claiming Him as Divine/Spirit of God, born of a Virgin/doing Miracles, the ONLY ONE called Sinless, etc.). Even in regards to the diversity of Muslims as it concerns worship/who is the focus, it's amazing how many do not know that there are and have always been many Muslims/Muslim camps that have actually advocated the concept of Christ being the Messiah when it comes to seeing what is stated directly within the Quran with the Divinity of Christ and others who worship Him - some of this discussed more in the thread entitled Trinitarian Monotheism?. Some of this I and others shared more in-depth with elsewhere (As said here and here and here ).Additionally, there was actually an excellent book on the issue I was very thankful for when it comes to noting what other believers have pointed out in their experiences with Muslims and the ways they connect - as seen in My Neighbour's Faith: Islam Explained for African Christians - John Azumah - Google Books Growing up with a grandmother who was in a camp of Islam and later came to trust in Christ, it's amazing to see the things people claim when saying "Muslims believe these crazy things!!!" ...for growing up and witnessing it, I never saw any of that and still have not. It's annoying when people don't even grow up on your side of the street and yet still want to tell you what you meant and what you believed - but that happens a lot in the West.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And there are a lot of Christians who would argue you into the ground about things that aren't even in the bible.

I've seen arguments here between from Catholics who don't accept Church doctrine.

So just because you had that argument with a Muslim doesn't mean he knows what the Koran actually says.

I agree.

However, I do not believe that the Koran says that Jesus is the Son of God and I have seen the idea of God having a son rejected by Muslims.

I have never read the Koran, other than a few quotes here and there.

So, if you can point to a verse from the Koran which states that Jesus was the son of God, please do.

I'm not talking about all of us being children of God, but Jesus being his only son, or God the son as we know Him.


Jim

 

[Dylan Michael]

Greek term in the NT for God is Theos, which referred for the ancient Greeks to an otherwise unknown god who was the creator of all things--apart from Zeus who was a god of particular properties, but not the original creator. We could call that "unknown god" a pagan god, except that Paul identified him specifically as being the true God.

The sources I've studied indicate that Deus is derived from Zeus.

Zeus, Theos, and Deus are cognates, kind of.
Zeus is derived from Dyeus, the king of the Proto-Indo-European gods.
Deus comes from deiwos, another PIE word. (Fun fact: deiwos is also the source of our word Tuesday.)

 

[LivingWordUnity]

For those who insist on a Pollyanna view of Islam. Can we at least agree that there are good Muslims and bad ones?

 

[ebia]

whats funny is everyone critiques the so called christian led countries yet everyone is beating down the door to get into them....dont see any mass immigration into Muslim countries just a thought on who has it right

Um, mostly people are "beating down the door to get into" rich countries. There isn't much of a mass exodus of people wanting to go to, say, PNG.

 

[andy b]

Um, mostly people are "beating down the door to get into" rich countries. There isn't much of a mass exodus of people wanting to go to, say, PNG.

these countries are rich because they are civilized they are civilized because they are founded on Christianity....but no doubt you will deny that

 

[ebia]

these countries are rich because they are civilized they are civilized because they are founded on Christianity....but no doubt you will deny that

"Civilised" is rather a vague word.

There are plenty of countries that are Christian and therefore are not rich.

One might reasonably say that the rich countries are rich because they exploited and effectively robbed the rest successfully (and still do).

 

[andy b]

"Civilised" is rather a vague word.

There are plenty of countries that are Christian and therefore are not rich.

One might reasonably say that the rich countries are rich because they exploited and effectively robbed the rest successfully (and still do).

its so vague that you wont leave one of these countries so its really not that vague at all

 

[ebia]

its so vague that you wont leave one of these countries so its really not that vague at all

I'm not going to comment on "civilised" without a definition.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Other than a Muslim, how many people would want to leave a country that has mostly a Christian population to live in a Muslim country? I don't see any mad rush of people trying to immigrate to Muslim countries. I only see people running for their lives desperately trying to escape.

 

[ebia]

Other than a Muslim, how many people would want to leave a country that has mostly a Christian population to live in a Muslim country?

I'd rather live in Indonesia or Malaysia than PNG.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I'd rather live in Indonesia or Malaysia than PNG.

I remember when three Christian school girls were chased down and hacked up with machetes by radical Sunni extremists in Indonesia. And then there was that terrorist attack in Bali. So your choice wouldn't be mine.

 

[ebia]

I remember when three Christian school girls were chased down and hacked up with machetes by radical Sunni extremists in Indonesia. And then there was that terrorist attack in Bali. So your choice wouldn't be mine.

I suspect that's because you don't know much about PNG.

Your comment is like me saying "I heard about that school shooting - no way would I choose to live in the US".