I'm just wondering if Islam is really a pagan religion?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It really shouldn't matter much, we don't need to categorize their religion! We shouldn't get hung up on words.

The only thing they need to know is that they need to hear, believe, repent, confess, and be baptized.

I'm really not talking about categorizing their religion- pagan or not, Abrahamic or not, etc.

But how do you communicate to them that they need Christianity when they think they already have assurance of Paradise in Islam?

 

[PaladinValer]

I think most of the radicals doctrine is based upon disputable hadiths. Which are just "wise sayings of the prophet". It isn't entirely the Quran where the madness comes from. They do have other books they consider just as holy in Islam. I believe.. 5[??] books in all.

Asides from the Qur'an:
The Taurat, which is essentially the Pentateuch
The Zabur, which are the Psalms
The Injeel, which is the original Gospel (note "original" and the lack of a plural in "Gospel"; Muslims believe in just one book, supposedly given to Jesus). It is sometimes interpreted to be the New Testament, particularly by lay Muslims, but this appears to be doubtful.

 

[steve_bakr]

These groups win elections and are coming to power across the ME, with or without elections.

That speaks volumes of what Muslims consider to be the real message of Islam.
How outsiders see things are irrelevant, because we are not the ones practicing it.

Your opinion, then, eliminates all Western Scholarship on Islam. By extension, then, I cannot know Greek Philosophy, Buddhism, or Hinduism. Similarly, I cannot know Quranic Arabic because I am not a 7th Century Arab.

 

[SolomonVII]

Your opinion, then, eliminates all Western Scholarship on Islam.

No, actually it doesn't. Modern universities often discount all Western scholarship about Islam on the account that it is from the colonial point of view, and often sneer at Bernard Lewis on that account.
That is not my position at all, in fact.

By extension, then, I cannot know Greek Philosophy, Buddhism, or Hinduism. Similarly, I cannot know Quranic Arabic because I am not a 7th Century Arab.

No, you are expressing a very narrow and rather ignorant anti-Islamic point of view. It is also anti-academic.

Not at all. My position is that as a living belief system, Islam is ultimately defined by those who practice it. It matters little what it is in theory, any more than it matters what communism is, in theory, or what Christianity is, in theory.

Muslims do not look to what Steve Bakr decrees are the irrefutable tenets of the faith, any more than they look to Bernard Lewis as the ultimate authority of what Islam is.

I tend to agree with Daniel Pipes that Islam has been defined as a great many things through the ages, and it is redefining itself even now.

All religious texts are to be interpreted. The Steve Bakr understanding of Arab and Islam may be the supremely perfect one.
But Islam is as Islam does.

 

[steve_bakr]

No, actually it doesn't. Modern universities often discount all Western scholarship about Islam on the account that it is from the colonial point of view, and often sneer at Bernard Lewis on that account.
That is not my position at all, in fact.

Not at all. My position is that as a living belief system, Islam is ultimately defined by those who practice it. It matters little what it is in theory, any more than it matters what communism is, in theory, or what Christianity is, in theory.

Muslims do not look to what Steve Bakr decrees are the irrefutable tenets of the faith, any more than they look to Bernard Lewis as the ultimate authority of what Islam is.

I tend to agree with Daniel Pipes that Islam has been defined as a great many things through the ages, and it is redefining itself even now.

All religious texts are to be interpreted. The Steve Bakr understanding of Arab and Islam may be the supremely perfect one.
But Islam is as Islam does.

That is very flattering, but I said I'm not an expert. Universities do not necessarily discount scholarship on Islam. There used to be a field known as "Orientalism," prominant in the 19th & early 20th centuries, which was indeed very colonialist. But these Orientalists were also experts in Islamic languages and translated a large quantity of original Islamic texts.

What is happening in the Middle East has more to do with geopolitics and sociology than religion. I am confident that a Muslim scholar such as Sayyed Hossein Nasr regards militant Islamism as a deviation. It is not the Islam that he teaches and practices.

 

[simonthezealot]

All of you calling it an abrahamic religion do not know what you're speaking about...
If there God is not the God Abraham ISAAC AND JACOB, then it is not the God of Abraham...
It's the deceiver.

 

[SolomonVII]

That is very flattering, but I said I'm not an expert. Universities do not necessarily discount scholarship on Islam. There used to be a field known as "Orientalism," prominant in the 19th & early 20th centuries, which was indeed very colonialist. But these Orientalists were also experts in Islamic languages and translated a large quantity of original Islamic texts.

What is happening in the Middle East has more to do with geopolitics and sociology than religion. I am confident that a Muslim scholar such as Sayyed Hossein Nasr regards militant Islamism as a deviation. It is not the Islam that he teaches and practices.

That is how Bernard Lewis is discounted-as an Orientalist.
Rather anti-intellectual attitude, I think, but that is the state of the study these days.
No matter.
To the extent that these Islamic deviants are the rising star of Islam these days, winning elections, and taking over countries, I would prefer that the deity of these deviants would not be associated with God in any way.

It is hard enough to evangelize in this secular world without having to explain how it can be that the God these deviants worship is actually the same one as the God of Christians and Jews.

 

[PaladinValer]

All of you calling it an abrahamic religion do not know what you're speaking about...
If there God is not the God Abraham ISAAC AND JACOB, then it is not the God of Abraham...
It's the deceiver.

Therefore, l God is false?

This, folks, is why Fundamentalism cannot be orthodox.

Since Islam claims the God of Abraham by being descendents of Ishmael, then unless Jacob and Isaac suddenly switched deities or Abraham worshiped a different deity, then your argument an illogical Categorical Error Fallacy.

Furthermore, the term Abrahamic has nothing to do with the other two:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/Abrahamic

Another reason: it relies on misinformation for it to be "right".

 

[simonthezealot]

The Qur’an tells us that Abraham was Muslim.
The bible tells us that he was the Hebrew.

 

[PaladinValer]

The Qur’an tells us that Abraham was Muslim.
The bible tells us that he was the Hebrew.

The word "muslim" in that context means someone who was in peaceful submission to God. That's what it means, and no amount of spinning is going to change the fact your opinion is wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

Is it okay to say that Islam is a pagan religion despite the fact that it is a monotheistic religion that like Christianity, was founded in the Middle East? Or would it be okay that because Islam has its roots with a different God it is a pagan religion? I wrote about Islam once upon a time and I wrote that Islam is a pagan religion because it is not Judeo-Christian.

I pasted it to a forum where opinions differed. Most of the people believed that Islam is not a pagan religion because of the first criteria. I still believed and even so today that any non Judeo-Christian beliefs constitute paganism. In your opinion, are only poly-theistic religions like Wicca pagan, or is anyone who is not Christian in particular, pagan? If I were to witness to a Muslim and they wanted to know about the differences between a Muslim and a Christian, what would you do?

Some Muslim groups are pretty barbaric.

But the religion itself claims to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and that Jesus is coming back to earth again. They believe in various parts of the OT and NT.

And they claim to believe in the God of Abraham. The one that created the world.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[simonthezealot]

The word "muslim" in that context means someone who was in peaceful submission to God. That's what it means, and no amount of spinning is going to change the fact your opinion is wrong.

Right, the god of this world...(smaLL g)


A Christ-less god is no God at all...

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Some Muslim groups are pretty barbaric.

But the religion itself claims to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and that Jesus is coming back to earth again. They believe in various parts of the OT and NT.

And they claim to believe in the God of Abraham. The one that created the world.

in Christ,

Bob

Good post BobRyan.

 

[simonthezealot]

The word "muslim" in that context means someone who was in peaceful submission to God. That's what it means, and no amount of spinning is going to change the fact your opinion is wrong.

You clearly know neither scripture or the quran...
God can not be Trinity and not a Trinity and be the same God.
Trinity is orthodox doctrine, the quran outright denies this, it seems you are the one outside orthodoxy...

1 John 4:3New International Version (NIV)

but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

[steve_bakr]

That is how Bernard Lewis is discounted-as an Orientalist.
Rather anti-intellectual attitude, I think, but that is the state of the study these days.
No matter.
To the extent that these Islamic deviants are the rising star of Islam these days, winning elections, and taking over countries, I would prefer that the deity of these deviants would not be associated with God in any way.

It is hard enough to evangelize in this secular world without having to explain how it can be that the God these deviants worship is actually the same one as the God of Christians and Jews.

Orientalism is well known for containing some rather prejudiced attitudes that are somewhat ethnic in nature. However, there were many very accomplished Orientalists that did not always harbor such attitudes, like R. J. Nicholson and A. J. Arberry. There was another name for a Western scholar known as "Arabist," of whom Guillarme was one, noted for his expertise in the Arabic language.

A preeminent 20th century European scholar was the language prodigy Annemarie Schimmel. She received her first Ph.D in Arabic Studies at the age of 19 and was proficient in at least five Islamic languages. Schimmel was well respected by Muslims and authored "The Mystical Dimensions of Islam," among many other scholarly works.

I would propose that the current Islamist radicalism no more represents Islam than the sacking of Jurusalem and Constantinople or the persecution of Jews and Muslims by Christians in Europe represent Christianity.

Bernard Lewis is mainly a historian and political commentator whose views were criticized by Edward Said in his book, "Orientalism." But Lewis is not a scholar of Islam nor is he an expert in the Arabic language.

 

[PaladinValer]

Right, the god of this world...(smaLL g)


A Christ-less god is no God at all...

Fallacy of Equivocation and typical twisting of the text given. Invalid response.

 

[simonthezealot]

Fallacy of Equivocation and typical twisting of the text given. Invalid response.

LOL how so?
You make the claim that someone is making a false representation it behooves you to point it out, otherwise you are sinning against that person.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I have been beginning to view islam as a offshoot of christianity in the vein of the latter day saints or JWs. Islam is just much much older.

Whatever category those two fall under is the same I would place Islam.

 

[Albion]

Some Muslim groups are pretty barbaric.

But the religion itself claims to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and that Jesus is coming back to earth again. They believe in various parts of the OT and NT.

And they claim to believe in the God of Abraham. The one that created the world.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't quite see how this answers the question, however. It is not unheard of to borrow bits and pieces from one religion and make them part of some other religion. That doesn't automatically make the latter into a variety of the former.

It would be more sensible just to see the end result as a heathen religion dressed up with parts of somebody else's folklore.

 

[SolomonVII]

Orientalism is well known for containing some rather prejudiced attitudes that are somewhat ethnic in nature. However, there were many very accomplished Orientalists that did not always harbor such attitudes, like R. J. Nicholson and A. J. Arberry. There was another name for a Western scholar known as "Arabist," of whom Guillarme was one, noted for his expertise in the Arabic language.

A preeminent 20th century European scholar was the language prodigy Annemarie Schimmel. She received her first Ph.D in Arabic Studies at the age of 19 and was proficient in at least five Islamic languages. Schimmel was well respected by Muslims and authored "The Mystical Dimensions of Islam," among many other scholarly works.

I would propose that the current Islamist radicalism no more represents Islam than the sacking of Jurusalem and Constantinople or the persecution of Jews and Muslims by Christians in Europe represent Christianity.

Bernard Lewis is mainly a historian and political commentator whose views were criticized by Edward Said in his book, "Orientalism." But Lewis is not a scholar of Islam nor is he an expert in the Arabic language.

I tend not to see what is happening in Islam today all about Sufis and mysticism and whirling dervishes.
That is all very academic though. If the real world was a book, that would be a very nice book to live in.
The whirling dervishes and Sufis are getting whacked too, by the deviants who are taking over the House of Islam.