I'm just wondering if Islam is really a pagan religion?

[Lik3]

Is it okay to say that Islam is a pagan religion despite the fact that it is a monotheistic religion that like Christianity, was founded in the Middle East? Or would it be okay that because Islam has its roots with a different God it is a pagan religion? I wrote about Islam once upon a time and I wrote that Islam is a pagan religion because it is not Judeo-Christian.

I pasted it to a forum where opinions differed. Most of the people believed that Islam is not a pagan religion because of the first criteria. I still believed and even so today that any non Judeo-Christian beliefs constitute paganism. In your opinion, are only poly-theistic religions like Wicca pagan, or is anyone who is not Christian in particular, pagan? If I were to witness to a Muslim and they wanted to know about the differences between a Muslim and a Christian, what would you do?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I pasted it to a forum where opinions differed. Most of the people believed that Islam is not a pagan religion because of the first criteria. I still believed and even so today that any non Judeo-Christian beliefs constitute paganism.

There's a pretty wide divergence of opinion on this one. Some people insist it's a pagan religion and that Allah is really a demon or a pagan deity or something of that nature. I'm not convinced of that. Rather, I tend to agree with history and anthropology that Islam belongs in the Abrahamic Religions family with Judaism and Christianity, and it actually shares quite a few characteristics as Judaism.

Like Judaism, Islam does not recognize Christ as divine nor does it see God in a triune nature, but rather simply as one being, one essence. So the way I see things, Islam is no more right or wrong than Judaism because they both reject Christ as God in the flesh redeeming creation. Mohammed and his early followers essentially believed that the Qur'an was the completion of Judaism and Christianity, the faith in it's fullest and truest form.

'Allah' is just Arabic for God, there are Arabic-speaking Christians, say in the Coptic Churches, who use the same word. In a certain light, Islam could be viewed as a schismatic group like Arianism or Montanism or any of those heresies that broke out in the early centuries of the church which were quelled by the Ecumenical Councils.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is it okay to say that Islam is a pagan religion despite the fact that it is a monotheistic religion that like Christianity, was founded in the Middle East? Or would it be okay that because Islam has its roots with a different God it is a pagan religion? I wrote about Islam once upon a time and I wrote that Islam is a pagan religion because it is not Judeo-Christian.

I pasted it to a forum where opinions differed. Most of the people believed that Islam is not a pagan religion because of the first criteria. I still believed and even so today that any non Judeo-Christian beliefs constitute paganism. In your opinion, are only poly-theistic religions like Wicca pagan, or is anyone who is not Christian in particular, pagan? If I were to witness to a Muslim and they wanted to know about the differences between a Muslim and a Christian, what would you do?

It's a lot like Judaism.

 

[topcare]

Is it okay to say that Islam is a pagan religion despite the fact that it is a monotheistic religion that like Christianity, was founded in the Middle East? Or would it be okay that because Islam has its roots with a different God it is a pagan religion? I wrote about Islam once upon a time and I wrote that Islam is a pagan religion because it is not Judeo-Christian.

I pasted it to a forum where opinions differed. Most of the people believed that Islam is not a pagan religion because of the first criteria. I still believed and even so today that any non Judeo-Christian beliefs constitute paganism. In your opinion, are only poly-theistic religions like Wicca pagan, or is anyone who is not Christian in particular, pagan? If I were to witness to a Muslim and they wanted to know about the differences between a Muslim and a Christian, what would you do?

I am not sure we could say islam is pagan, I know in this cultre we love to change the meaning of things but pagan has a specific meaning:

one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greek

or


a follower of any of various contemporary religions that are based on the worship of nature or the Earth; a neopagan.

Pagan | Define Pagan at Dictionary.com

islam does not fit this profile

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

 

[SayaOtonashi]

God in the Quran is stated to be deceiver and wants people to sin to puinsh them

 

[ViaCrucis]

Islam isn't Paganism.

Defining "Paganism" is tricky, because originally pagani were simply "rural folk"--people who didn't live in the cities and urban centers of the Roman Empire, and as such continued to cling to the traditions and beliefs of the old Roman order from before its Christianization in the 4th and 5th centuries. It could thus then be extended to describe the heathen "hill people" of Northern Europe.

So does "Pagan" simply mean non-Christian (and non-Jew), or does it more narrowly describe the diverse state and folk traditions throughout Europe, i.e. the Germanic, Roman, and Hellenistic pantheons and related folk practices?

Should "Pagan" describe only the narrowest definition--European Paganism? Or should it also include the the folk traditions and beliefs of any culture? Egyptian? Canaanite? Hindu? Mesoamerican?

If the definition of Paganism is, basically, "Non Christian, non Jewish religion" then everything from Buddhism, to Taoism, to Odinism, to Islam, would be "Pagan", but generally speaking "Pagan" has a narrower definition.

Here is criteria I would use to identify Paganism:

1) Non-Abrahamic -- Paganism by definition does not recognize the unique and universal position of the God revealed from Abraham to Moses, etc. That this God is the only God, and that there is no power His equal or opposite. There is only one Divine Power: God.

2) Non-Confessional -- Paganism is not a dogmatic set of beliefs, but a coalition of folk practices, ideas, and beliefs rooted in the antiquity of various tribes and peoples and cultures.

3) Belief in [a] divine power(s) -- There are gods, spirits, numinous beings. That is, Paganism is in some sense always theistic. Religions where divine beings are either not acknowledged or seen as unimportant or trivial shouldn't be described as Pagan.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Allah – The Greatest Deceiver of them All

Allah as a Deceiver: Examining Satan’s Accusations Against the Integrity of Allah

 

[Needing_Grace]

I heard of Islam as a heretical sect of Christianity.

 

[MKJ]

I don't think it would be a very normal use to call any Abrahamic religion pagan.

 

[MKJ]

I heard of Islam as a heretical sect of Christianity.

That was the view of some commentators at the time, and its an arguable interpretation. Historically it is clearly a post-Christian religion and owes a lot to Christianity.

You could make similar arguments about the relation between Judaism and Chrstianity, that Christianity is a sect of Judaism.

To some extent it is a matter of how you choose to define what constitutes a different belief system, and that will depend on what your purpose is. I would say Mormonism, from a theological perspective is really non-Christian, but I can see why it might be included in a text describing Christian sects of different types too.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Is it okay to say that Islam is a pagan religion despite the fact that it is a monotheistic religion that like Christianity, was founded in the Middle East? Or would it be okay that because Islam has its roots with a different God it is a pagan religion? I wrote about Islam once upon a time and I wrote that Islam is a pagan religion because it is not Judeo-Christian.

I pasted it to a forum where opinions differed. Most of the people believed that Islam is not a pagan religion because of the first criteria. I still believed and even so today that any non Judeo-Christian beliefs constitute paganism. In your opinion, are only poly-theistic religions like Wicca pagan, or is anyone who is not Christian in particular, pagan? If I were to witness to a Muslim and they wanted to know about the differences between a Muslim and a Christian, what would you do?

For the record, despite my satirical post earlier, I'd like to thank you for starting a non-Catholic-bashing, non-conspiracy theory thread on GT. It's refreshing.

On from there, I'd say it's mostly a matter of definition. In common usage, I tend to define "pagan" to mean some form of polytheism that arose naturally, wherein the cultus is dominant over any subsequent dogmatic reflection.

This tended to be true of the societies surrounding ancient Israel, Second Temple Judaism, and early Christianity. It would therefore definitely include not only Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Levantine/Phonecian, Greek, and Roman religion, but also pre-Christian Germanic and Celtic religion, and modern African and Native American polytheism and animism.

It would definitely not include Islam.

I guess one could make a case either way in some instance. Chinese folk religion combines ancient Chinese polytheism and animistic practices alongside Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. Shinto was the state religion of Imperial Japan which represented a development of ancient polytheism combined with modern nationalism and Buddhism. Hinduism definitely developed from more primitive Vedic polytheism but has absorbed a long legacy of intellectual and philosophy speculation into its practice.

But whatever Islam is- and for the record, I don't believe the god Muslims worship, the god of the Qur'an, can be equated with the God whom Christians worship- it isn't pagan by most definitions. It is monotheistic and is rooted in a set of textual, legal, and institutional traditions rather than a set of preexisting cults worshiping a plurality of gods.

And, again for the record, I would also consider Buddhism to be non-pagan, despite having no connection with Abrahamic religion whatsoever. I'd probably say the same about Confucianism and Taoism, but then we'd be getting not just beyond the thread, but into the realm of whether pure, non-folk Confucianism and Taoism are religions at all and where the boundaries lies between religion and philosophical system and worldview.

 

[PaladinValer]

Is it okay to say that Islam is a pagan religion despite the fact that it is a monotheistic religion that like Christianity, was founded in the Middle East?

No.

Or would it be okay that because Islam has its roots with a different God it is a pagan religion?

I think a serious study of comparative religious studies of the ancient Middle East is in order.

I wrote about Islam once upon a time and I wrote that Islam is a pagan religion because it is not Judeo-Christian.

It was incorrect.

I pasted it to a forum where opinions differed. Most of the people believed that Islam is not a pagan religion because of the first criteria. I still believed and even so today that any non Judeo-Christian beliefs constitute paganism.

Paganism is not defined as your opinions suggest.

In your opinion, are only poly-theistic religions like Wicca pagan, or is anyone who is not Christian in particular, pagan?

The definition of words is based on etymology as well as popular usage. Paganism today means a non-monotheistic religion, chiefly of ancient or medieval Europe, Western Asia, or Northern Africa.

If I were to witness to a Muslim and they wanted to know about the differences between a Muslim and a Christian, what would you do?

Be honest and true to the actual facts of both religions. Islam is an Abrahamic religion that worships the same deity we do, though with incorrect theology, just like the Jews do.

 

[MKJ]

For the record, despite my satirical post earlier, I'd like to thank you for starting a non-Catholic-bashing, non-conspiracy theory thread on GT. It's refreshing.

On from there, I'd say it's mostly a matter of definition. In common usage, I tend to define "pagan" to mean some form of polytheism that arose naturally, wherein the cultus is dominant over any subsequent dogmatic reflection.

This tended to be true of the societies surrounding ancient Israel, Second Temple Judaism, and early Christianity. It would therefore definitely include not only Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Levantine/Phonecian, Greek, and Roman religion, but also pre-Christian Germanic and Celtic religion, and modern African and Native American polytheism and animism.

It would definitely not include Islam.

I guess one could make a case either way in some instance. Chinese folk religion combines ancient Chinese polytheism and animistic practices alongside Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. Shinto was the state religion of Imperial Japan which represented a development of ancient polytheism combined with modern nationalism and Buddhism. Hinduism definitely developed from more primitive Vedic polytheism but has absorbed a long legacy of intellectual and philosophy speculation into its practice.

But whatever Islam is- and for the record, I don't believe the god Muslims worship, the god of the Qur'an, can be equated with the God whom Christians worship- it isn't pagan by most definitions. It is monotheistic and is rooted in a set of textual, legal, and institutional traditions rather than a set of preexisting cults worshiping a plurality of gods.

And, again for the record, I would also consider Buddhism to be non-pagan, despite having no connection with Abrahamic religion whatsoever. I'd probably say the same about Confucianism and Taoism, but then we'd be getting not just beyond the thread, but into the realm of whether pure, non-folk Confucianism and Taoism are religions at all and where the boundaries lies between religion and philosophical system and worldview.

It gets a bit tricky if you look at how religions developed over time. Judaism likely began in its earliest days as a polytheistic religion, and pagan philosophy has often been as resolutely monotheistic as Christianity, sometimes even almost Trinitarian.

And Buddhism can incorporate plenty of folk elements.

And then, what about modern neopagans?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It gets a bit tricky if you look at how religions developed over time. Judaism likely began in its earliest days as a polytheistic religion, and pagan philosophy has often been as resolutely monotheistic as Christianity, sometimes even almost Trinitarian.

And Buddhism can incorporate plenty of folk elements.

And then, what about modern neopagans?

Sssh! Don't tell people Yahweh had a wife!

But yeah, that's why I prefaced everything with how it is all a matter of definition, and ended it that way, too.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure that categorizing religions is all that helpful. Religious typology usually involves one religion categorizing the "other," or one agnostic worldview studying comparative religions through various typologies by which it reduces substantial differences between major competing religious systems.

That said, "pagan" is a term in the historic literature, and I think it's helpful at the very least to understanding not just the direct referent of the term in its context (the Greek pagans, the German pagans, the Lithuanian pagans), but how it was used such that if we're, say, Lutheran, we can better understand our relationship to religious systems like Hinduism or African polytheism of which Luther had virtually no knowledge. That is, as Christians who accept that the past has something to teach us, the term "pagan" has some validity; but that's a pretty tendentious way of getting there, and thankfully so, because it certainly isn't as helpful as our forebears probably guessed.

 

[Lik3]

You're welcome, Gratia.

 

[NannaNae]

Mohammid and all of what is now islam were ancestor worshippers.
Mohammid picked one of his( his or someones ) ancestors to be their gods. they had always already worshipped all of them as if they were god's. he just picked one to be the real god.

now jews already proved you can even name a golden calf by my God's name .
but the same or similar name that don't make the golden calf or the ancestor my God.

it is quite convenient though to have golden calfs and or dead ancestors as your gods because they can't answer and have no opinions and mostly they have no retribution that man doesn't create himself .
that retribution proves they have no God at all.. if those men have to do the dirty work. their god isn't real enough to defend himself. .
but dead ancestors and golden calfs created in minds of men.. rarely care about real sin... or what you do or do not do in their name .
and you can do anything you like and blame it on the dead ancestor with my God's name or the golden calf with my God's name .

problem is my God does care what I do and don't do and He has tons of opinions. a whole book of his opinions .. and a spirit that also makes sure we know exactly what He thinks and why he thinks that .

so yep golden calf and dead ancestors, and just all dead things are just too easy.
I live God with real demands is way harder to use !

 

[Tangible]

Islam - a Christian heresy. See also Mormonism.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Islam - a Christian heresy. See also Mormonism.

Sometimes when I look at Islam.. its like they took christianity, and then changed it to validate the arab lifestyle and culture.

 

[PaladinValer]

Mohammid and all of what is now islam were ancestor worshippers.

1. "Muhammed"
2. "Worshipers"
3. The Hebrews were polytheists, and then henotheists before they were strict monotheists.
4. The Caananite people were ancestor-worshipers, but I see nothing about the Arabs being so.

Mohammid picked one of his( his or someones ) ancestors to be their gods. they had always already worshipped all of them as if they were god's. he just picked one to be the real god.

Yahweh was just another one of the local deities of the area too, and many Pagan titles and even other deities' names were merely just given to Yahweh by the Hebrews.

now jews already proved you can even name a golden calf by my God's name .
but the same or similar name that don't make the golden calf or the ancestor my God.

The Hebrews were fooled to think the golden calf was Yahweh. That is different.