What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[he-man]

Yes, thank you for another verse confirming what I believe, even as you said. "ALL are under God's control"...and therefore it is up to God to either kill them all or save them all.

Rom 9:27 And Isaiah exclaims about Israel: "Even if the people of Israel are as many as the grains of sand by the sea, yet only a few of them will be saved;

I've decided he has a better plan than 'purposeless eternal torture' or 'eternal death through annihilation'. Only in fulfilling His plan of saving ALL "in due time" can "the last enemy to be destroyed/apollumi is death."
1TI 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

Amen, He accepts responsibility for all He has created....including "the smith" and his purgative flames'.

NO, He will rescue Only those who love Him; not so with the ungodly
Psa 91:14 God says, "I will save those who love me and will protect those who acknowledge me as LORD. 15 When they call to me, I will answer them; when they are in trouble, I will be with them. I will rescue them and honor them. 16 I will reward them with long life; I will save them."

And why is He not destroying Israel in the quoted verse, instead of just destroying their pagan altars?
Is it because they were "chosen". And chosen 'not' because of anything they had ever done. And when He finally 'chooses' everyone in the "due time" of "ages to come", they too will be dealt with, in spite of what they have done, by a God whose "MERCY endurath forever", even though "he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy." A good word for sure brother...and a word for ALL.....including you, I might add.

You have need to learn that Mercy is the knowledge of God
.
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings

1Pe 2:9 But you are the chosen race, the King's priests, the holy nation, God's own people, chosen to proclaim the wonderful acts of God, who called you out of darkness into his own marvelous light.

10 At one time you were not God's people, but now you are his people; at one time you did not know God's mercy, but now you have received his mercy.

Psa 102:13 You will rise and take pity on Zion; the time has come to have mercy on her; this is the right time.

If you are an annihilationist...boldly confess such.

I BOLDLY confess!

I do consider annihilation as a 'more' merciful God, just not as merciful as one who doesn't eternally kill and thereby never destroying death. I much prefer the God Jesus represents and reveals both in action/parable and with his own life, as to how God "Kills and makes alive again" even as the seed dies but results in subsequent life. Such is the "likeness of God" that I believe in and strive to emulate.

The likeness is to obey God then you are protected and by grace will be resurrected to eternal life.

Psa 91:9 You have made the LORD your defender, the Most High your protector, 10 and so no disaster will strike you, no violence will come near your home. 11 God will put his angels in charge of you to protect you wherever you go.

But least you forget that God is a consuming fire.
Pro 6:27 Can you carry fire against your chest without burning your clothes?

DEU 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Too bad the hand (of thedevil/Satan/serprent/dragon???)trump's the 'God-likeness' of most "Christians"...all IMO of course.

Pro 3:33 The LORD puts a curse on the homes of the wicked, but blesses the homes of the righteous.

Take your POV to its 'creative' end. He created sinners and unholy angels. Again I say 'unholy' just for a name for the 1/3. Maybe I better ask, do you even ascribe to the 1/3 fallen angels theology?

No, as I have stated and you should know by now, it is GOD alone who creates good and evil and He certainly does not need any help from people who wish to blame it on a superstitous belief of "fallen angels". Angels cannot fall, angels cannot sin, they can only do the will of God.

As far as all you quoted on Tartarus to prove; "The Bible does not recognize Tatarus as a place of punishment, but as a Greek/Roman MYTH." My bible just doesn't line up with all that. 2PE 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell/Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"'

2PE 2:4 For if God spared not the messengers <G32> that sinned, but cast them down to Hell/Tartarus,Hades.. the GRAVE! G32: a messenger

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment:

Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Ps 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Job 31:11 Such wickedness should be punished by death.
12 It would be like a destructive, hellish <H11> fire, consuming everything I have. H11 'a&#774;baddo&#770;n; concretely Hades: - destruction. &#1488;&#1489;&#1491;&#1468;&#1493;&#1503; [GNB]

 

[Josephus]

Yes, I have found that SOME have SOME common understanding, but NEVER have I found TWO people, out of TEN years and hundreds of people, not TWO individuals with the SAME theology.

How is that POSSIBLE? If ALL these are claiming to KNOW the SAME God through His Son, Jesus Christ, how is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that they are ALL following DIFFERENT understanding?

If there were any two believers in the whole spread of human history that should have agreed with everything the other held to theologically, it would have been Moses and Aaron. But even they didn't! What a powerful teaching and lesson for us all.

Even Moses and Aaron, both who were close to G-d, had two different understandings of one point of theology. The bible gives us this narrative so we too can learn a very important lesson:

If Moses can be wrong about theology, and corrected by another who is not as close to G-d, you can be too:

The Problem with the Inaugural Sin Offering

16 Later Moses sought diligently for the sin offering male goat, but it had actually been burnt. So he became angry at Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's remaining sons, saying, 17 "Why did you not eat the sin offering in the sanctuary? For it is most holy and he gave it to you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement on their behalf before the Lord. 18 See here! Its blood was not brought into the holy place within! You should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary just as I commanded!" 19 But Aaron spoke to Moses, "See here! Just today they presented their sin offering and their burnt offering before the Lord and such things as these have happened to me! If I had eaten a sin offering today would the Lord have been pleased?" 20 When Moses heard this explanation, he was satisfied.


In other words Imagican, if Moses and Aaron had competing theologies, so too can everyone else. In fact, the bible gives us this to teach that two people, no matter how close to G-d, can have conflicting theologies, is normal.

Yes, it's normal. But do Moses and Aaron refuse to discuss the matter? No. We therefore learn from the narrative about what to do about conflicting theologies among believers: reason together. Eventually the side with the clearest reason will win, and in Jewish discourse, it's often a side that neither side expected (hence the expression two Jews, three opinions).

tl;dr:
disagreement is normal. It's how you know people are listening to the Spirit of G-d, for if anyone agreed absolutely on everything in theology that another person held to, then one of them is not hearing from G-d. That's been my experience.

 

[Hillsage]

Rom 9:27 And Isaiah exclaims about Israel: "Even if the people of Israel are as many as the grains of sand by the sea, yet only a few of them will be saved;
NO, He will rescue Only those who love Him; not so with the ungodly

Surely you know this means temporally. OT salvation of the Jews never even dealt with some salvation in the hereafter. Why the Sadduccees didn't even believe there was even a resurrection let alone a hereafter.

Psa 91:14 God says, "I will save those who love me and will protect those who acknowledge me as LORD. 15 When they call to me, I will answer them; when they are in trouble, I will be with them. I will rescue them and honor them. 16 I will reward them with long life; I will save them."

[/size]

[/color][/size][/color][/size] You have need to learn that Mercy is the knowledge of God

[/color][/color]

As you have need to know he was speaking temporally. IMO of course.

I BOLDLY confess! The likeness is to obey God then you are protected and by grace will be resurrected to eternal life.

You need my definition of grace. It is neither greasy nor does it forgive your sins for eternal life. It is the power to accomplish what God decrees. And grace is not 'undeserved favor' because you have to humble yourself to get it.

JAM 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1PE 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. :6 Humble yourselves therefore...

I believe that being "after His likeness" means pursuing "after it". It does not mean obedience to the point that you are some perfect reflection of God. And some will attain unto a "some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." degree of "likeness". Not even Paul had made it, even though he was striving for it.

PHI 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect;

But his striving certainly wasn't to 'go to heaven after he died' His striving was that he might overcome the last enemy of death having obtain the resurrection power available to us in CHRIST.

PHI 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, ...
11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

But least you forget that God is a consuming fire.

Of course HE is, why he is the very LAKE OF FIRE which death and hell shall be cast into so the He may "be all in all" at the fulfillment of His plan. Not theirs or yours...and probably not mine either. But I still like my view best.

ROM 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.

No, as I have stated and you should know by now, it is GOD alone who creates good and evil and He certainly does not need any help from people who wish to blame it on a superstitous belief of "fallen angels". Angels cannot fall, angels cannot sin, they can only do the will of God.

I am not professing to lay blame on anything superstitiously, I am only placing blame on the devil and his angles whom God hath created for their evil purposes, as they are played out in His plan for my life.

Brother, your posts and my posts are getting too long, I bore pretty easy with stuff filling more than the screen size....unless it feels truly 'anointed' to me....and I confess yours don't. I know I know it's reciprocal. All the more reason to keep things bite size for my ole tired eyes.

 

[GforPerplexed]

Do not Fear or be "confused" GfP,

Pardon me Perplexed, i thought you said you were afraid satan was winning.

Sorry but its a term of speech, not a literal meaning.

eg: I'm afraid that he is out of the office and I don't know where he is.

I think you may be either confused or distorting my meaning for your own benefit.

 

[GforPerplexed]

And I am WELL aware of how it is USED by SO MANY to say something DIFFERENT than it actually DOES.

Why is your truth the correct truth?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If there were any two believers in the whole spread of human history that should have agreed with everything the other held to theologically, it would have been Moses and Aaron. But even they didn't! What a powerful teaching and lesson for us all..

Oh wow, yes I see it now! That example can be compared equally with two Christains that disagree with whether Jesus is God or not.

Now I understand, maybe not logically why, because like the above example it is not logical. Someone saying they knew a Catholic who alledgedly practiced Voodoo represents a Catholic who does not agree with other Catholics when the Church forbids it is illogical. It does not represent disagreement on beliefs, it represents a Catholic who is wrong in what they say or do.

Instead of just be wrong about something (like the Westboro nutjobs), it seems that it is assumed everyone is right in whatever they want to believe and the difference just represents disagreement. If that is the case and the way the OP is looking at the entire spectrum of individual human faith, then yes I can see how someone could say no two believers hold the same beliefs. Not everyone likes PB&J for example.

 

[Norah63]

Yes I knew what that 'afraid' meant.
It was a tongue in cheek reply.
Thread lighter, my bad.

 

[GforPerplexed]

Thats ok, I just thought you had a low IQ

 

[Imagican]

If there were any two believers in the whole spread of human history that should have agreed with everything the other held to theologically, it would have been Moses and Aaron. But even they didn't! What a powerful teaching and lesson for us all.

Even Moses and Aaron, both who were close to G-d, had two different understandings of one point of theology. The bible gives us this narrative so we too can learn a very important lesson:

If Moses can be wrong about theology, and corrected by another who is not as close to G-d, you can be too:

The Problem with the Inaugural Sin Offering

16 Later Moses sought diligently for the sin offering male goat, but it had actually been burnt. So he became angry at Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's remaining sons, saying, 17 "Why did you not eat the sin offering in the sanctuary? For it is most holy and he gave it to you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement on their behalf before the Lord. 18 See here! Its blood was not brought into the holy place within! You should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary just as I commanded!" 19 But Aaron spoke to Moses, "See here! Just today they presented their sin offering and their burnt offering before the Lord and such things as these have happened to me! If I had eaten a sin offering today would the Lord have been pleased?" 20 When Moses heard this explanation, he was satisfied.


In other words Imagican, if Moses and Aaron had competing theologies, so too can everyone else. In fact, the bible gives us this to teach that two people, no matter how close to G-d, can have conflicting theologies, is normal.

Yes, it's normal. But do Moses and Aaron refuse to discuss the matter? No. We therefore learn from the narrative about what to do about conflicting theologies among believers: reason together. Eventually the side with the clearest reason will win, and in Jewish discourse, it's often a side that neither side expected (hence the expression two Jews, three opinions).

tl;dr:
disagreement is normal. It's how you know people are listening to the Spirit of G-d, for if anyone agreed absolutely on everything in theology that another person held to, then one of them is not hearing from G-d. That's been my experience.

Romans 12:16
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel

Philippians 2:2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous

there are NOT 'many Gospels'. According to the Bible there is BUT ONE. there are not MANY 'Holy Spirits'. But according to the Bible, ONLY ONE. There are not MANY truths. According to the Bible there is BUT ONE.

That many men err has NOTHING to DO with our instruction.

Acts 2

2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.


No, my friend. I have YET to find words in the Bible that JUSTIFY those that claim to be followers having DIFFERENT understanding according to ONE Gospel. There is NOTHING 'normal' or 'righteous' about men who CLAIM to be followers with EACH following something DIFFERENT.


What I see and BELIEVE that the Bible conveys PERFECTLY is this: There is but ONE truth according to GOD and His Son. And if two people cannot come to an agreement on that ONE truth, then there is something CAUSING 'confusion'. And God is NOT the 'author of confusion'. That very statement INDICATES that there IS an author of confusion but it is NOT GOD. So if not GOD, then WHO or WHAT is the AUTHOR of 'confusion'? I BELIEVE that the answer is perfectly clear and OUTLINED in the Bible.


Satan IS the author of 'confusion'. The FATHER of LIES. And what is it that we TRULY believe when we believe in something CONTRARY to the TRUTH? That is an EASY answer to any willing to be HONEST with themselves. The OPPOSITE of TRUTH is LIE. So when ANYONE BELIEVES in something CONTRARY to the truth, for WHATEVER REASON, they are choosing to believe in LIES. Who is the FATHER of lies? Then WHO is it that is INFLUENCING their BELIEFS if their beliefs are CONTRARY to the TRUTH?



These are SIMPLE understanding. Not designed for the likes of 'rocket scientists, but CHILDREN. Even a CHILD could understand these principles if laid out in front of them CLEARLY.


The problem lies in the CONFUSION that is laid out instead. And MOST of that confusion comes from men being UNWILLING to accept the truth for the FACT that it brings with it GUILT and SHAME.


So instead of FACING their OWN guilt and shame, they try to MANIPULATE what they READ in order to JUSTIFY themselves to RUN from the GUILT and SHAME.


Just about EVERYONE I have EVER met has exhibited the WILL and ABILITY to LIE to themselves when it comes to the TRUTH. And if one can LIE to themselves, it becomes even EASIER to lie to everyone else.


No, what I SEE in your words is an attempt to JUSTIFY. You say you see the stories of 'confusion' in the Bible as INSTRUCTION. I see those stories as instruction as well. But NOT instruction to FOLLOW 'different' understanding. But the CONSEQUENCES of following that which is CONTRARY to the TRUTH.


Your offering concerning Moses WAS NOT 'the' example as you tried to offer it. There is BOUND to be confusion in the BEGINNING of ANYTHING. And the entire story of Moses was about a NEW BEGINNING. Your offering was no different than trying to say God EXPECTS us to rebel or refuse to listen according to the story of Jonah. I certainly DO NOT see it as such. I see a story of the CONSEQUENCES of not LISTENING or FOLLOWING in TRUTH.


When God told Moses what he would say in order to deliver his people, he instantly tried to shirk the responsibility by stating to God he had some sort of PROBLEM speaking. God didn't hesitate, He told Moses to TAKE Aaron WITH HIM and let Aaron do the speaking.

No, my friend, there is NOTHING contained within the ENTIRE Bible that I have found that offers JUSTIFICATION for men believing DIFFERENTLY than in the TRUTH that has been delivered by God through prophet, apostle or His Own Son. There is CERTAINLY NO ENCOURAGEMENT offered within it's pages. Where you came up with THAT idea is about as confusing as the idea itself.

While I am willing to openly admit that each is only able to understand according to what they can bear, NO TWO people can come to DIFFERENT conclusion that contradict each other according to ONE truth.

That means that you and I may come to DIFFERENT TRUTHS. But if we are both to come to THE truth, our understanding must be IDENTICAL or it is NOT 'the truth'. An example might be that we BOTH believe that water is WET. A universal TRUTH. But we may not agree that ALL water is of the SAME FORM and our agreement is STILL of the TRUTH.

But if I say water is wet, and you say you believe in something contrary to that, then it is YOU that has REFUSED to find or FOLLOW the TRUTH. One of us may well know MORE about the intricate details of water, (it's chemical composition and details of it freezing or evaporation), but the most basic FACT that water is WET is something that we BOTH have to agree upon in order for BOTH of us to be following in TRUTH.

Or maybe I missed something in your offering. Maybe I misunderstood what it is that you are trying to say...............

Blessings,

MEC

 

[GforPerplexed]

Of course there is one truth, and yes, water is wet. It clearly understood, proven and written in such a way that it is easy to understand why water is wet and undebatable. There is no room for interpretation, it is clear and precise.

The bible however is far from precise and open to interpretation, hence the confusion.

The bible is messy, written in an old laguage, hard to translate and largly irrelevant to todays society. It should have been updated through the centuries, but somehow it wasnt.

 

[he-man]

Surely you know this means temporally. OT salvation of the never even dealt with some salvation in the hereafter. Why the Sadduccees didn't even believe there was even a resurrection let alone a hereafter.

deleted

 

[Hillsage]

Sorry but its a term of speech, not a literal meaning.

eg: I'm afraid that he is out of the his office and I don't know where he is.

You never will know, this side of glory...as an agnostic...IMO. SO, were you always so inclined? Or did you have some rotten religious experience leading you to such a POV?

I think you may be either confused or distorting my meaning for your own benefit.

Bingo. Since you ignored my first welcoming post totally, I was just making sure I wasn't on some 'do not respond list' or something.

 

[he-man]

Surely you know this means temporally. OT salvation of the never even dealt with some salvation in the hereafter. Why the Sadduccees didn't even believe there was even a resurrection let alone a hereafter.

deleted

 

[he-man]

Surely you know this means temporally. OT salvation of the never even dealt with some salvation in the hereafter. Why the Sadduccees didn't even believe there was even a resurrection let alone a hereafter.

You err a great deal.

Mr 12:24 And Jesus answered them. 'Where you err through this, is not knowing the writings, neither the power of God.​

Surely you jest, even Moses expected to be resurrected!

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob
MK 12:27 God is not of the dead, but of the living: You err a great deal.​

temporally. IMO of course.

I will reward them with long life; I will save them."

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luk 16:31 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Just as the Pharisees and preachers today are lost!
Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you go around about the land and sea to make one convert, and as soon as he was, you make him double the son of Hinnom; as you your own selves are.

And grace is not 'undeserved favor' because you have to humble yourself to get it. JAM 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Yes, but according to the measure
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

PHI 3:11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
[quote=Hillsage;66123285]Of course HE is, why he is the very LAKE OF FIRE which death and hell shall be cast into so the He may "be all in all" at the fulfillment of His plan. Not theirs or yours...and probably not mine either. But I still like my view best. ROM 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.[/quote]Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him.

I am not professing to lay blame on anything superstitiously, I am only placing blame on the devil and his angles whom God hath created for their evil purposes, as they are played out in His plan for my life.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other
scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Angels God hath created for His purposes to correct those ungodly ones who deny God.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Again you do err in a belief that God would allow angels freewill to sin. Angels can only carry out the purposes of God.

Psa 91:11 God will put his angels in charge of you to protect you wherever you go.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error by the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[Hillsage]

You err a great deal.

Yes, I'm sure I do. But I'm in good company in that regard too, IMO of course.

Surely you jest, even Moses expected to be resurrected!

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ​

Thou does twist the scripture to conform to thine theology IMO. This doesn't prove what "Moses expected", it only proves what Jesus knew.

MK 12:27 God is not of the dead, but of the living: You err a great deal.​

I will reward them with long life; I will save them."

Hmm, being such a stickler for 'words' I'd think you know that "LONG life" here temporally, isn't equating to 'eternal life' in the hereafter. IOW we both do err...apparently.
EPH 6:2 "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 "that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.

And shame on you with your deceptive application of Psa 91 pasted onto your Mark verse. Is that because, in context, it confirms my statement as to salvation being here for the Jew? IOW "long life" again is not even implied in Psa 91 as 'eternal life'.

PSA 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

​

Luk 20:37 NOW that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

NOW, that they're raised???? Indicates they couldn't be before Jesus was crucified. So NOW Jesus is revealing in the NT that which was unknown in the OT.

Just as the Pharisees and preachers today are lost!

Thank God then, that it is up to Him to save us. A responsibility He has mightily accepted so we aren't annihilated because of stupid 'lost preachers today'.

HEB 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

ROM 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

ROM 8:20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Yes, but according to the measure
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

And my god gives a 'true' measure of faith necessary unto all for the FIRST SALVATION, that being your born again spirit. You are incorrectly dividing the word and applying 'soul' salvation to 'spirit' salvation.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Context my brother, context.

1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

The measure of purity you 'put on' here will determine just how much of Him you will reflect "as he is" in your glorified body there. This is a quantity earned, but will never equate you to being equal to 'the head'.

2CO 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Do you, my friend, think that you can become perfect and thereby negate the need for Christ's death on the cross. YOU ARE WRONG. You cannot obtain the salvation that required a SINLESS sacrifice. You sinned. You can only work out the salvation of your SOUL, which does not determine you GOING TO HEAVEN it only determines the degree of glorified body you will receive as your REWARD for the works YOU did. You will never equate to the WORK THAT CHRIST DID no matter how perfectly you walk here and now.

PHI 3:11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

And the fact that Paul never achieved immortality is the proof that he never achieved the "Perfection" that brings forth the immortality Paul encourage us to strive for.

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

And 'aionios or "age-during" life' here, equates to immortality and overcoming the last enemy of physical death.

Angels God hath created for His purposes to correct those ungodly ones who deny God.

and How good it is to agree.

Again you do err in a belief that God would allow angels freewill to sin. Angels can only carry out the purposes of God.

Again you do err with your assumption of 'that', which is wrong. I never said that.

Psa 91:11 God will put his angels in charge of you to protect you wherever you go.

And the angel of death protects you how? Or is the angel of death a principality/power under the direct command/authority of Satan, which is only surpassed only by the permissive and sovereign will/authority of God????

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

AMEN. Everknowing that no matter how much grace you grow into, as you strive to have "Christ formed IN YOU", YOU will never negate the measure of grace needed for the initial salvation of your spirit which will grant you access into 'life' in the hereafter. And is 'that' grace which puts 'you in Christ' and not "Christ in you".

 

[he-man]

Thou does twist the scripture to conform to thine theology IMO. This doesn't prove what "Moses expected", it only proves what Jesus knew

That verse is saying that the dead will be raised and that Moses believed in the resurrection, unless you call Christ a LIAR whom they had just quoted for the purpose of entangling Him!

Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.* 31 ... the voice of the Lord came unto him,
(&#949;&#787;&#960;&#953;&#768; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#834; &#946;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#959;&#965;), refers to a particular section in the Exo_3:2-6.

Luk 20:37 Now, that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ​

If God called them as living Let God be true!​

Mar 12:26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, Iamthe God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
'our Lord would show that even there the doctrine of the Resurrection was taught '
And all the rather does He select this passage, as being not a bare annunciation of the doctrine in question, but as expressive of that glorious truth out of which the Resurrection springs. [JFB] ​

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Hmm, being such a stickler for 'words' I'd think you know that "LONG life" here temporally, isn't equating to 'eternal life' in the hereafter. IOW we both do err...apparently. And shame on you with your deceptive application of Psa 91 "long life" again is not even implied in Psa 91 as 'eternal life'.

Better study the Hebrew: H753 length: + for ever coupled with H3117 figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term) Addressed to David but symbolical of Christ. STUDY... STUDY... STUDY...​

Psa 91:16 With long H753 life H3117 will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
The only way he could see salvation would be by resurrection.
Psa 21:4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

NOW, that they're raised???? Indicates they couldn't be before Jesus was crucified. So NOW Jesus is revealing in the NT that which was unknown in the OT.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. ​

see above and

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.​

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Thank God then, that it is up to Him to save us. A responsibility He has mightily accepted so we aren't annihilated because of stupid 'lost preachers today'.

Not quite yet for they continue to be lost today, even more so.Refusing to believe what God says: ​

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And my god gives a 'true' measure of faith necessary unto all for the FIRST SALVATION, that being your born again spirit. You are incorrectly dividing the word and applying 'soul' salvation to 'spirit' salvation.

"each one of us" has been assigned to him his own particular gift, to be used for the good of the whole: none is overlooked; none therefore can be dispensed with for the edifying of the Church (Eph_4:12). A motive to unity (Eph_4:3). Translate, "Unto each one of us was the grace (which was bestowed by Christ at His ascension, Eph_4:8) given according to," etc. the measure &#8212; the amount "of the gift of Christ"
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
'as all the gifts of believers are according to their respective capacity for them, they are not to be puffed up on account of them, but to use them purely for their proper ends.'[JFB]

Context my brother, context.

but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;

And the angel of death protects you how? Or is the angel of death a principality/power under the direct command of Satan, which is only surpassed only by the permissive and sovereign will/authority of God????

Angel of deathdo not know of any thing that could be described as that. The only thing I might suggest is that you Obey the Law of God and then you will not be caught disobeying the Laws of man.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked rulers for the day of evil.


​

 

[BukiRob]

Of course there is one truth, and yes, water is wet. It clearly understood, proven and written in such a way that it is easy to understand why water is wet and undebatable. There is no room for interpretation, it is clear and precise.

The bible however is far from precise and open to interpretation, hence the confusion.

The bible is messy, written in an old laguage, hard to translate and largly irrelevant to todays society. It should have been updated through the centuries, but somehow it wasnt.

Truth does not cease to be truth merely because society has "changed" you make a flawed assumption. That is that the change in today's society is change for good.

In my opinion the problem is people trying to shove their interpretation on scripture. Especially when it is done from people who have no cultural understanding the Jews who wrote scripture.

Idioms get lost and what is translated in English means something to that audience because they are completely unaware of the idiom which convey's an entirely different meaning.

An example of this is Mark 13:32 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

People have taken these verses to say that the return of Messiah can not be know because it says that Only the Father knows....

However, this is a Jewish idiom. G-d way of keeping time (what constitutes a day and month) is based upon the lunar cycle a day starts at sunset and ends at the next.

When the first viable sliver of the new moon appears based on the witness of 2 priests the new month has started. So a month may last 29 or 30 days. Yeshua was declaring that he would return at the new moon on the feast of trumpets. This gap of time was called the hour and day which no man knows...

There are MANY idioms in scripture and if you are unaware of them you walk away with an understand that is not based upon what was actually communicated to the audience it was originally spoken to.

 

[Hillsage]

Sorry it was just a random example.

Nothing to be sorry for. I actually took it as such, and thought it both funny and yet sad. Therefore my query was sincere, I am curious as to what led you to be an agnostic? And what brings you to a Christian Forum, as such?

Sorry again, I did miss your original welcome. No offence meant and thanks for the welcome.

None taken.

 

[Hillsage]

unless you call Christ a LIAR

No, I don't think I'm that stupid. But I admit that's a bit biased.

STUDY... STUDY... STUDY...

If your discernment of my inability to adequately discuss my views with you is right, then it's probably a good time to quit.
​

Angel of deathdo not know of any thing that could be described as that.

Hmm and you think I'm the one needing to study. Really?

Reminds me of a saying; "He who knows only 'his position', really doesn't know."

The only thing I might suggest is that you Obey the Law of God and then you will not be caught disobeying the Laws of man.

Yep, we're on a different page for sure.

I hope this wasn't wholly intolerable for you he-man. As I repeatedly tried to tell you, posts longer than a screen size, kinda are for me. If one can't get a point across with fewer words it certainly isn't proverbial.

Be blessed

 

[Norah63]

Perplexed, this might be the most interesting part of the forums,
but you cant judge IQ's after only a few posts.
Get to know the posters, they might surprise you.
Many come by, preach their hearts, then breeze on down the line.