Revelation 12 The Church, and those counted worthy to escape

[Old Timer]

I certainly think that rewards are going to be measured although not salvation..

Because it's impossible to be saved twice..

And if it's up to us then there's no hope imo..

If you'd like to believe that you're keeping yourself in Christ, then this is where we must part ways.

 

[Old Timer]

Paul talks about men being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that they may be saved in that Day... in Corinthians he speaks of losing rewards but not their salvation.

It's a fine line.. where do you draw it..

IN CHRIST out of Christ IN CHRIST out of Christ...

Again, no person ever gets saved twice.. so if any man loses salvation there is no way to repent again otherwise we crucify Christ again..

 

[OneAccordRM]

If you'd like to believe that you're keeping yourself in Christ, then this is where we must part ways.

Nothing that I am doing brother, all I can do is keep my faith in Christ and do what the Spirit says.

Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Luk_13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


Salvation is not as lax as most protestant doctrine would have us believe, and no Im not catholic.


Sin can and will separate us from Christ.

2Pe_2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

 

[Old Timer]

Nothing that I am doing brother, all I can do is keep my faith in Christ and do what the Spirit says.

Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Luk_13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


Salvation is not as lax as most protestant doctrine would have us believe, and no Im not catholic.


Sin can and will separate us from Christ.

2Pe_2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Well then keep up the good work and you'll be fine..

 

[OneAccordRM]

Paul talks about men being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that they may be saved in that Day... in Corinthians he speaks of losing rewards but not their salvation.

It's a fine line.. where do you draw it..

IN CHRIST out of Christ IN CHRIST out of Christ...

Again, no person ever gets saved twice.. so if any man loses salvation there is no way to repent again otherwise we crucify Christ again..

Man, I see you producing fruit by proclaiming the truth on this very website.


You arent the one who needs to worry.


Now, Id be super worried if I was a preterist or Amil, that is called preaching another Jesus or Gospel, and that is a no no.

2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2Co_11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Well then keep up the good work and you'll be fine..

Not work, fruit.

Works are of the flesh, and we cant work our way to heaven.


But fruit, which is righteous works, comes from the Spirit of the living God, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Eph_5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)

 

[OneAccordRM]

and yes nearly everyone is resurrected...

So true..

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Rev20]

Show me how you are connecting Daniels abomination to the destruction of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem and the Temple are destroyed before the 70th week begins.

I have come to the conclusion over the years that those who cannot grasp basic math and English become futurists.

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

So verse 26 concludes with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, and desolations are determined.

I had to really think about what you are saying here. The calculations are so simple, I could not understand why you were miscalculating? But after studying what you wrote above, I understand.

You believe that verse 26 and 27 are completely separate verses, with one following the other in the order of events. But that is not proper grammar. Verse 26 and 27 are tied together with the conjunction "and"; so verse 26 does not conclude until verse 27 concludes.

I hope that makes sense. But just in case, try this:

1) Ignore the line numbers. The original Hebrew didn't have any line numbers. Those numbers were added by the translators (you should know that). Consider the verses as part of the same paragraph since they are connected with the conjunction "and" (you should know that, as well).

2) Ignore the confusion caused by the "threescore and two weeks" reference in 9:26. It has already been established in 9:25 that Christ arrived at the end of the sixty-ninth week; so he was cut-off (crucified) in the middle of the 70th week due to the length of his ministry. That is a fact that cannot be changed without corrupting the language.

3) Tie the related items together from the remaining sentences:

The only thing left to determine is how the last half-week of the 70 weeks fit into the picture. That was the half-week immediately following the crucifixion.

As I explained earlier, the only thing remaining that had a fixed time of fulfillment was the confirmation of the covenant with the children of Israel. The disciples performed the remaining half-week of confirmation, which was completed at the time they were sent to the Gentiles in Acts 10. After that, all who came to Christ (Jew and Gentile) were equally blessed by the new covenant.


.

 

[Douggg]

2) Ignore the confusion caused by the "threescore and two weeks" reference in 9:26. It has already been established in 9:25 that Christ arrived at the end of the sixty-ninth week; so he was cut-off (crucified) in the middle of the 70th week due to the length of his ministry. That is a fact that cannot be changed without corrupting the language.

The verses don't say anything about the length of Jesus's ministry.

The verses say is when he is cutoff.

The length of Jesus's ministry, even if it were in the text, which it is not, would be before he is cutoff. The length of Jesus's ministry is not part of the prophecy. It is not in the text.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as KING, which "the" messiah actually means, riding a donkey, Zechariah 9, at the end of the 69th week. 4 days later he was cutoff, crucified. Leaving the last week the 7 years still future.

The confirmation of the covenant - for 7 years - is the Mt. Sinai covenant. Another thing that Jesus did not do, because the Prince who shall come is not Him, but the Antichrist. The confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant "for 7 years" is a law that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:10-11

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.


The seven years cycle has been interrupted for at least 2000 years, because the Jews have not had control of the temple mount - which is where the reading must take place. The Antichrist, mistaken by the Jews
as their perceived messiah, will oversee the reading of Moses' instructions to go in and possess the land, to reset the 7 years cycle.


There is nothing in the text in either Daniel 9, nor spoken of by any of the apostles in any of the new testament letters, about the length of Jesus's ministry being 3 1/2 years.

 

[OneAccordRM]

I have come to the conclusion over the years that those who cannot grasp basic math and English become futurists.



I had to really think about what you are saying here. The calculations are so simple, I could not understand why you were miscalculating? But after studying what you wrote above, I understand.

You believe that verse 26 and 27 are completely separate verses, with one following the other in the order of events. But that is not proper grammar. Verse 26 and 27 are tied together with the conjunction "and"; so verse 26 does not conclude until verse 27 concludes.

I hope that makes sense. But just in case, try this:

1) Ignore the line numbers. The original Hebrew didn't have any line numbers. Those numbers were added by the translators (you should know that). Consider the verses as part of the same paragraph since they are connected with the conjunction "and" (you should know that, as well).

2) Ignore the confusion caused by the "threescore and two weeks" reference in 9:26. It has already been established in 9:25 that Christ arrived at the end of the sixty-ninth week; so he was cut-off (crucified) in the middle of the 70th week due to the length of his ministry. That is a fact that cannot be changed without corrupting the language.

3) Tie the related items together from the remaining sentences:

The only thing left to determine is how the last half-week of the 70 weeks fit into the picture. That was the half-week immediately following the crucifixion.

As I explained earlier, the only thing remaining that had a fixed time of fulfillment was the confirmation of the covenant with the children of Israel. The disciples performed the remaining half-week of confirmation, which was completed at the time they were sent to the Gentiles in Acts 10. After that, all who came to Christ (Jew and Gentile) were equally blessed by the new covenant.


.

Its not my math that is off friend.

Daniels 490 years started in 457bc with Artaxerxes commandment.

Putting the end of Daniels 490 year prophecy at around 33ad if you believe the prophecy is consecutive.

If you dont believe the prophecy is consecutive, then you have a 37 year gap between the crucifixion (messiah cut off after the 483 years) and the start of Daniels final 7 years, again, if you believe his prophecy was finished at 70ad.



Math is math.

 

[NannaNae]

"I have come to the conclusion over the years that those who cannot grasp basic math and English become futurists."

well wait a minute with John's bad math skills ( he wanted help to calculate the number of the name of the beast..) Daniel , Isaiah , Ezekiel, Enoch( everything was in the future to these guys ) , Paul and tons more .... I suspect I like the odds of those who are in the
futurist boat...

so I will keep my lot with that boat crew.. even with John's bad Math skills ..
because no matter what it isn't about math.. it is about who you know and who knows you !

 

[Rev20]

The verses don't say anything about the length of Jesus's ministry.

The verses say is when he is cutoff.

The length of Jesus's ministry, even if it were in the text, which it is not, would be before he is cutoff. The length of Jesus's ministry is not part of the prophecy. It is not in the text.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem hailed as KING, which "the" messiah actually means, riding a donkey, Zechariah 9, at the end of the 69th week. 4 days later he was cutoff, crucified. Leaving the last week the 7 years still future.

LOL! Jesus was the Messiah when he was baptized by John. Read the following from Isaiah, which Jesus read while he was in the temple, shortly after receiving the Holy Ghost from God and being tempted by the devil in the wilderness:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound . . ." -- Isa 61:1​

He was already the Messiah long before riding the donkey. There are many references to that fact. Remember the Samaritan woman at the well, early in his ministry?

"The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he." -- Jn 4:25-26​

.

 

[Rev20]

Its not my math that is off friend.

Daniels 490 years started in 457bc with Artaxerxes commandment.

Daniel's prophecy is worded in a manner that makes the beginning irrelevant. I realize there has been much hair-splitting over the centuries on that point, but the facts are this:

Jesus began his ministry at the end of the 69th week, and he was killed (cut-off=destroyed) from all accounts at least three years later. That left approximately one-half week remaining; not a full week as futurists claim.


.

 

[NannaNae]

but I am a futurist and I can go with 3 1/2 years give a month or two( due to difference in the lunar months of the jewish calendar ) and I can say pretty sure that it restarts at pentecost like the first 3 1/2 ended and is over around near tabernacles 3 1/2 years later..



his children took up their cross followed him.. and have spent 2 more days/2000 years in the only hell they will ever know and morning of the third day is coming. ;P

 

[Douggg]

LOL! Jesus was the Messiah when he was baptized by John. Read the following from Isaiah, which Jesus read while he was in the temple, shortly after receiving the Holy Ghost from God and being tempted by the devil in the wilderness:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound . . ." -- Isa 61:1​

He was already the Messiah long before riding the donkey. There are many references to that fact. Remember the Samaritan woman at the well, early in his ministry?

"The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he." -- Jn 4:25-26​

.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


The passage in Daniel 9 is speaking of his arrival in Jerusalem. He was not hailed as the messiah, which means the King of Israel, in Jerusalem until that last passover week.

Luke 18:
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.




Like 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

Messiah means anointed. It applies to kings and priests in old testament times. "The" messiah is the special promised "King of Israel" that God would send to restore the kingdom back to Israel and lead the Jews and the world into the messianic age of peace and harmony within the world.

Jesus was not hailed as that promised King of Israel, son of David, in Jerusalem until that last passover week.

There is nothing in Daniel 9 about the time of the messiah's ministry. None of the apostles taught in their testimonies that Jesus had a 3 1/2 year ministry fulfilling Daniel 9.

The "for 7 years", however, is right in the bible in Deuteronomy 31:10-11. After Gog/Magog and the elimination of the muslim's control on the temple mount, the coast will be clear to reinstate the every 7 years cycle that Moses made a law for all future generations to observe.

 

[Interplanner]

No Doug he was hailed as that kind of king in Jn 6 and he escaped. He meant to be hailed as the king he had described himself to be--the suffering good shepherd. I find that you have missed the drama entirely by trying to juggle 2P2P even if it drives us crazy and you beyond credibility.

 

[Douggg]

No Doug he was hailed as that kind of king in Jn 6 and he escaped. He meant to be hailed as the king he had described himself to be--the suffering good shepherd. I find that you have missed the drama entirely by trying to juggle 2P2P even if it drives us crazy and you beyond credibility.

Inter, you know you might end up in Miss Crabtree's summer school second semester if you keep this up.

No-one hailed Jesus as King of Israel in John 6. He was in the region of Galilee, not Jerusalem.

And it says "a" king, but not the King of Israel. A king would be the king over them in Galilee. Which Jesus was not sent to be a king in Galilee.

Jesus departed from them before they had a chance.

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

 

[Douggg]

To Inter,

 

[NannaNae]

No Doug he was hailed as that kind of king in Jn 6 and he escaped. He meant to be hailed as the king he had described himself to be--the suffering good shepherd. I find that you have missed the drama entirely by trying to juggle 2P2P even if it drives us crazy and you beyond credibility.

Interplanner I have no idea what 2p2p.... what is that . I read all of second peter and have no one clue what it could be.


but you are wrong and Dougg is right..

who was king of Israel.
Joseph and then Jesus..

and I am going to far as to believe that he actually was in body form and genetics also probably actually David son who died to redeem David's kingdom, David's son the ONE Greater + older / wiser and better than Solomon , Solomon who was the one who was the king of kings in the sea age.

Jesus had to die a king because man used to kill their kings for their own sins. so righteous kings had to be redeemed too.
so Jesus had to be KING of KINGS and the redeemer of them also.

who is the king of the USA? no one knows hum ! well .. I suggest that everybody be nice to their neighbors..

there is some queens of the new world too and and every one has been into mocking them for a very long time.. but do any of you know how they are .. I would be nice to your neighbors wife too..

just like he knew Joseph was king of Israel, there is a king/rulers of every country and they probably aren't in power so be nice to your neighbors.. heck Joseph probably didn't even know he was king.. but he was. you just never know who it will turn out to be ..... because sin/ death / hell in men's minds.. is a usurper of everything and always has been. just like the king of england are a bunch of germans who have no real right there ... hell usurps truth .

innerplanner you are wrong God knows where every king and every queen and every one of everyones gifts and inheritances are...
if they have possession and are ruling now is immaterial. because just like Joseph and Jesus or some of those raunchy kings of Judah. they are in spiritual control for good or bad if they are in power or not. .

 

[Interplanner]

And I think your understanding of what happened there is missing the point in the overall writing of John. If anyone thought there was a chance to overthrow Rome, it was the Galileans. that's why he ministered specifically to them for a long time, to try to save the country from what Judaizing would do. Even Caiahphas tried to save the country from it, Jn 11 & 18.