Revelation 12 The Church, and those counted worthy to escape

[John S]

The Pre-Trib Rapture is a false man made doctrine.

 

[NannaNae]

When you read Revelation, you always have to make a distinction between the obedient and wicked. The obedient are not "raptured"/ wisked away to heaven, here is what Lev 26 says:

3“If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them, 4then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely. 6I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid. And I will remove harmful beasts from the land, and the sword shall not go through your land. 7You shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. 8Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand, and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. 9I will turn to you and make you fruitful and multiply you and will confirm my covenant with you. 10You shall eat old store long kept, and you shall clear out the old to make way for the new. 11I will make my dwellinga among you, and my soul shall not abhor you. 12And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be my people. 13I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves. And I have broken the bars of your yoke and made you walk erect.

It says we will get to eat "old store". If you have seen the "Walking Dead" TV show, they are total examples of "getting to eat old store". They just pick it up for free. When Babylon falls, we will be freed from our yoke and free to live in the new world and "eat old store". That is the real "counted worthy to escape these things."

I think this has to do with the location you are when the resurrection happens..
if you are in it where it comes down.. then the sinful are pushed out of his life( area/ zone )..

and if you are his then you are drawn to his life and go there .. and if you are not his you are repelled and pushed out(side ) of his life .
( kind of like that movie about duel gravity only side ways and everyone who is not where they belong gets heated until they move ) but some like the 2 prophets and maybe the 144000 may stay on the other side for his purposes I don't know ... so I for the most part I suspect some are going one way while others are going the other way, like now some people are moving toward life and others are moving away from life . and I think it is the same kind of idea then.

I believe that is why there appears to be conflicting scriptures because of who the subject is talking about . some are being repelled some are being called / drawn..

 

[OneAccordRM]

Would you please restate that in plain English. Even better, point to the parts of my post that you are referring to.


.

Show me how you are connecting Daniels abomination to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem and the Temple are destroyed before the 70th week begins.

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

So verse 26 concludes with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, and desolations are determined.

Daniel then reveals the last 7 years of 490 year prophecy.

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Even if you hold to your 70ad theory regarding the abomination, you have a 40 year gap.


But you already contradicted yourself because you told me the 7 years started with Christs ministry, which lasted 3 1/2 years.

Which isnt possible.


Lucy, you got some splaining to do.

 

[OneAccordRM]

The woman is Israel, but she does not deliver her children in Isaiah 66:8, that is, they are not saved, accepted Jesus, until the time of the great tribulation.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (does not apply to the church)


As soon as - Zion travailed. That is at the very point of the beginning of the great tribulation, which will begin at the middle of the seven years. Salvation will come to the Jews. Which is in Revelation 12:10.
That's when the Jews will accept Jesus.


10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

You still have a conflicting issue.

The woman is protected during the first 3 1/2 years from the serpent.


But her child is caught up to God before the first 3 1/2 years begins.

Jesus wasnt caught up, he ascended, and he wasnt a child, he was an adult.


Not to mention, the Jews dont have the testimony of Christ.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Old Timer]

You still have a conflicting issue.

The woman is protected during the first 3 1/2 years from the serpent.


But her child is caught up to God before the first 3 1/2 years begins.

Jesus wasnt caught up, he ascended, and he wasnt a child, he was an adult.


Not to mention, the Jews dont have the testimony of Christ.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I think you make good points for this not being the historical account of the gospel.. but rather the future prophecy that it is..

And again, think of how this fits with being born again.. think of Paul's words in Galatians where he speaks of Christ being formed in you..

When a person (or a nation here) is born again, Christ is a child.. they're literally BABES in Christ.. and they grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Him..

And as mentioned.. Heaven must RECEIVE Christ until the times of the restitution of all things..

 

[Old Timer]

Everyone knows that Israel IS going to eventually receive CHRIST...

Right?

It's not like it's an uncertainty by any means..

 

[Old Timer]

IMO God is going to take the miracle which we know as being born again by the Spirit of Christ... and apply that to the nation of Israel..

Don't ask me how.. although it must be relative to the 144,000 Israelites from the twelve tribes being sealed with the testimony of God..

Amazing to say the least.. but it's not as though our God isn't an awesome God..

He's going to raise the dead even..

Who can begin to wrap their mind around that?

 

[OneAccordRM]

I think you make good points for this not being the historical account of the gospel.. but rather the future prophecy that it is..

And again, think of how this fits with being born again.. think of Paul's words in Galatians where he speaks of Christ being formed in you..

When a person (or a nation here) is born again, Christ is a child.. they're literally BABES in Christ.. and they grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Him..

And as mentioned.. Heaven must RECEIVE Christ until the times of the restitution of all things..

Everything in Revelation 12 is given as a future prophecy, which essentially rules out Christ as the man child.

Ive prayed over this because the chapter doesnt make any sense with Israel as the woman.


The Jews are not persecuted during the first half of the trib.

They are going to be duped by the ac until he defiles the temple and reveals his true colors.


So, we have a woman, which is allegorical for the Church (take your pick on who the church is, but we know the woman is a sign for a Church)

If the woman is allegory for a mulititude of peoples, then the man child is allegory as well, and its only logical that the man child consists of more than one person, as does the woman.

Woman= singular (but defines a group of people literally)
Man child = singular (why is the man child literal for one person, but the woman isnt?)


I cant make sense of it bro with the woman being Israel.



Besides, during the same period of time the Woman is protected from the serpent, the Two Witnesses are in Israel taken care of business on their end.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


The Two Witnesses come from heaven because they ascend after they are given the Spirit.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

They were told to come up hither, they were not snatched by force.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Angels for example can descend from Heaven.


Dont ask me who the two witnesses are by name, I have my theories, but Im not sure obviously who they are exactly.

 

[Old Timer]

I guess that raises this question..

If the woman is the church of God.. and much of the church of God has been deceased... does that mean that it's only part of the church?

Will the deceased in the body of Christ also be raised and then taken through the tribulation?

 

[Old Timer]

That can't be right because we know that the church of God is meeting the LORD in the air.. right?

 

[OneAccordRM]

That can't be right because we know that the church of God is meeting the LORD in the air.. right?

Yes, at the end of the tribulation when the resurrection takes place, then those who are "alive, and remain" will be caught up with Christ.


The man child are those found worthy to escape all these things.

Those who are found in the Church of Philadelphia.


They are translated, like Enoch and Elijah, it Doesnt have anything to do with Christ coming.


That would mean there are two second comings, and that is not scriptural.


The thief in the night just means Christ will come when people wont be expecting him.

But for those who are saved in Christ and refuse the mark, WE KNOW to expect him.


The thief in the night is for the lost.

1Th_5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, at the end of the tribulation when the resurrection takes place, then those who are "alive, and remain" will be caught up with Christ.

Therefore only the living members of the body of Christ go through the tribulation and the deceased members do not.

The man child are those found worthy to escape all these things.

Those who are found in the Church of Philadelphia.


They are translated, like Enoch and Elijah, it Doesnt have anything to do with Christ coming.

So a portion of the "living" members of the body of Christ are going to be raptured out and not go through the tribulation..?

 

[OneAccordRM]

So a portion of the "living" members of the body of Christ are going to be raptured out and not go through the tribulation..?

Yes, a partial rapture, not every Christian can be raptured. Some will be living in unrepented sin.

Thats why Christ tells the 7 Churches what they are doing wrong, and what they need to do to get right with Christ.

This is what I believe.

Remember, not all who died in the flood are going to the lake of fire, but they did die in the flood.

Only Noah and his family were found righteous to escape.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Remember, this is Jesus talking to Christians in Revelation, which we all fit into one of these Churches.

Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev_2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev_2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev_3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, a partial rapture, not every Christian can be raptured. Some will be living in unrepented sin.

How about those who were like that and who are now deceased?

Thats why Christ tells the 7 Churches what they are doing wrong, and what they need to do to get right with Christ.

Are you speaking of losing salvation?

Remember, not all who died in the flood are going to the lake of fire, but they did die in the flood.

Only Noah and his family were found righteous to escape.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Noah to me is like a picture of Israel..

ONE FAMILY taken THROUGH the flood.. Noah..

ONE FAMILY taken THROUGH the tribulation.. Jacob..

This is why to me it all points to Israel..

 

[OneAccordRM]

How about those who were like that and who are now deceased?

Are you speaking of losing salvation?

Noah to me is like a picture of Israel..

ONE FAMILY taken THROUGH the flood.. Noah..

ONE FAMILY taken THROUGH the tribulation.. Jacob..

This is why to me it all points to Israel..

Those who died in Christ before the Tribulation will be resurrected when Christ returns after the Tribulation when Christ returns, coming in the clouds.
This is what I prayerfully believe.



The rapture is not a resurrection, otherwise you have two resurrections, one at the beginning, and one at the end of the trib.

Doesnt make sense.


A Christian can fall away from Christ and yes, lose their salvation.

OSAS is a false doctrine no where found in scripture.

If you remain in Christ and repent of your sins always you wont have anything to worry about.

But Christ warns.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[OneAccordRM]

Old Timer, I didnt exactly answer one of your questions and I need to adress it because you brought up a valid point.

Gimme sec with the scripture.

 

[Old Timer]

A Christian can fall away from Christ and yes, lose their salvation.

OSAS is a false doctrine no where found in scripture.

If you remain in Christ and repent of your sins always you wont have anything to worry about.

But Christ warns.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

So we're not actually sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the DAY of redemption... and Paul was wrong to be persuaded that He which hath begun a good work in you shall perform it, even until the DAY of Jesus Christ?

I don't know about you, but I know how wretched I am.. and if it's anything to do with me keeping myself in Christ then I'm hopeless.

 

[OneAccordRM]

So we're not actually sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the DAY of redemption... and Paul was wrong to be persuaded that He which hath begun a good work in you shall perform it, even until the DAY of Jesus Christ?

I don't know about you, but I know how wretched I am.. and if it's anything to do with me keeping myself in Christ then I'm hopeless.

YES YOU ARE SEALED

But A Christians produces fruit. (Different from works)

A Christian takes that penny and doubles it or what he has is taken.

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


There are people who have believed in Christ and done nothing for the kingdom.

That is a no no.


What did we do with our salvation?

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Luk_13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


These are those who hold the truth in unrighteousness.