Is there reason to be moral to others...

[Targaryen]

What does that mean? Why do we have it?

Why have any law, from God ,secular or otherwise?

Have you not seen when anarchy not only is dangerous to the person but to other people or to other things around them?

Case in point in recent Canadian history, the Vancouver riots.

Was it lawful for a crowd to gather together after their hockey team lost a championship game? Yes.

Was it lawful for them to express their disappointment in the result of the match? Yes

Was it lawful of this crowd to decend into violence and destroy property,commit minor acts of arson and the like? No.

That's what the law does in secular terms. It's meant to protect as well as define what constitutes a wrong action.

So why would god not have laws? The same type of sentiment would exist in a benevolent Devine being. Just how those laws are interpreted and it's offenders called to account would be different then the secular norms would be.

 

[Harry3142]

JGG-

If people are to form a strong, cohesive society, there must be a foundation of moral laws dictating what actions its citizens are permitted to engage in. Otherwise, the society will disintegrate due to the people's fear and mistrust of each other.

This was the purpose of the original laws and commandments of Torah. There's nothing in the five books of Torah to indicate that there was an afterlife which they could attain through following its laws. Instead, the purpose of those laws was specifically intended as the means whereby the Hebrews could mold their people into a strong, cohesive society. This society would be powerful enough to defend itself against its enemies, and the members of its citizenry would feel secure in the knowledge that its moral laws forbade anyone else in that society from harming them unjustly.

Even Lenin came to realize that a society needed a code of morality as its foundation in order to survive. When he first took over Russia, he declared that the moral laws were part of the church's means of oppressing the people, so they were to be tossed aside. However, within only 3 years he saw Russia's society falling apart. And it had already disintegrated to such an extent that he himself brought back the moral laws he initially had tossed aside, and imposed strict penalties for anyone who violated them.

 

[Andrea411]

Before you were a Christian, what was the objective standard which leads you to make this absolute statement ? Thanks.

What I would want someone to do to me in the same circumstances, would be the simplest way to figure my philosophy at that time. Being honest to my spouse, family, friends, so they could trust my word. Integrity was an important component in my thinking. I wouldn't want others to think I was untruthful or untrustworthy but it was really about 'I' didn't want to think I was a lousy person. 'I' wanted to be a 'good' person. It was a standard only I would be able to judge. I wanted to respect myself.
I really hated Christians bc they were such hypocrites. What I didn't realize is that hypocrites are people who say to do one thing yet do another and that describes everyone I know. Yes, Christians are hypocrites but they at least try to attain to some level of kindness and integrity.
As a parent, I think we are the worst hypocrites, you know we tell our kids not to do all the things we did or will do bc we don't want them to get hurt. We do it anyway.
The Lord opened my eyes to the reality of our Creator. And then I found out how good He is and that I did need Him and I have never regretted giving my life to Him. But I still look around the church and think, "what a bunch of hypocrites and reprobates" but its with a gentle laugh bc we are all just trying to do our best on any given day. Some days we succeed, others not so much. I stand in utter awe at His grace, love and majesty in the midst of His fallen world.
One day He will resurrect it and make it what He intends for it to be, in the mean time, we live and pray and do our best to allow Him to live in us and through us.

God bless, andrea

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

What I would want someone to do to me in the same circumstances, would be the simplest way to figure my philosophy at that time. Being honest to my spouse, family, friends, so they could trust my word. Integrity was an important component in my thinking. I wouldn't want others to think I was untruthful or untrustworthy but it was really about 'I' didn't want to think I was a lousy person. 'I' wanted to be a 'good' person. It was a standard only I would be able to judge. I wanted to respect myself.
I really hated Christians bc they were such hypocrites. What I didn't realize is that hypocrites are people who say to do one thing yet do another and that describes everyone I know. Yes, Christians are hypocrites but they at least try to attain to some level of kindness and integrity.
As a parent, I think we are the worst hypocrites, you know we tell our kids not to do all the things we did or will do bc we don't want them to get hurt. We do it anyway.
The Lord opened my eyes to the reality of our Creator. And then I found out how good He is and that I did need Him and I have never regretted giving my life to Him. But I still look around the church and think, "what a bunch of hypocrites and reprobates" but its with a gentle laugh bc we are all just trying to do our best on any given day. Some days we succeed, others not so much. I stand in utter awe at His grace, love and majesty in the midst of His fallen world.
One day He will resurrect it and make it what He intends for it to be, in the mean time, we live and pray and do our best to allow Him to live in us and through us.

God bless, andrea

Every person on Earth is a hypocrite to some level . Its part of our depraved nature and it doesn't matter if you are saved in Christ or a staunch professed atheist. Theres hypocrisy in everyone . Its amazing God loves us the way he does . Truly amazing.

 

[JGG]

I'm not going to argue with you, just saying your wrong. I was an atheist, I don't hate atheists. The Lord didn't hate me, He was gracious to me and loved me even before I knew Him.

I was quite moral before I was a Christian, one of my favorite books was and is Atlas Shrugged, written by that famous atheist Ayn Rand. I always thought if she'd just open her eyes, she'd have seen that she was walking parallel to the Lord. Following truth wherever it took her, but God is truth. Ayn loved truth. I did too. She taught me why I shouldn't lie, bc it lifted the person you were lying to above yourself. In effect, you were kneeling before anyone you lied to.

I still don't hate atheists, even the lord said, He would rather they be hot or cold instead of lukewarm. At least atheists are willing to be cold toward the Lord. i can deal with them better then lukewarm Christians.

I don't hear any Christians I'm around hating on unbelievers....

Are you a Christian now? Here's the Christian view on atheist morality:

“I think its OBVIOUS to EVERYONE, that, there is a certain GROUP of people within the American populace that are the MAJOR Contributor to to the runaway moral degradation we see sociologically (The Heathen, the Atheist , the Liberally Immoral)”

Don't treat me like someone who hasn't read what you have to say.

 

[Andrea411]

Are you a Christian now? Here's the Christian view on atheist morality:

“I think its OBVIOUS to EVERYONE, that, there is a certain GROUP of people within the American populace that are the MAJOR Contributor to to the runaway moral degradation we see sociologically (The Heathen, the Atheist , the Liberally Immoral)”

Don't treat me like someone who hasn't read what you have to say.

Well I don't recognize those words but don't worry about it... I won't treat you anyway at all.

 

[RDKirk]

...other than because God said so?

Concepts of morality existed long before Abraham. Abraham was raised under the Law of Hammurabi, which Hammurabi claimed came to him from the pagan god Marduk.

The ancient Greek philosophers interestingly did not base their morality on the gods, but on their own human reasoning. Western philosophy is based more on that of the ancient Greeks than anything else. When Western Christians think they're following Christian principles, they are thinking mostly like Greeks with just a veneer of Christian thought.

So Westerners mostly do what they think is right by their own Greek-based reasoning--and otherwise what they think God ought to think is right.

So considering that the ancient Greeks came up with quite socially functional morality based on their own reason, then there is a reason to be moral other than "because God said so."

Hermits and castaways on desert islands don't need morality. People who live in communities with other people need morality. Morality is what weaker people use to convince stronger not to kill them, and what the strong use to keep the weak from killing them in their sleep.

 

[LilLamb219]

Are you a Christian now? Here's the Christian view on atheist morality:

“I think its OBVIOUS to EVERYONE, that, there is a certain GROUP of people within the American populace that are the MAJOR Contributor to to the runaway moral degradation we see sociologically (The Heathen, the Atheist , the Liberally Immoral)”

Don't treat me like someone who hasn't read what you have to say.

Is that quote the Christian view or one person's opinion? Could you provide the source for the quote please?

 

[JGG]

Concepts of morality existed long before Abraham. Abraham was raised under the Law of Hammurabi, which Hammurabi claimed came to him from the pagan god Marduk.

The ancient Greek philosophers interestingly did not base their morality on the gods, but on their own human reasoning. Western philosophy is based more on that of the ancient Greeks than anything else. When Western Christians think they're following Christian principles, they are thinking mostly like Greeks with just a veneer of Christian thought.

So Westerners mostly do what they think is right by their own Greek-based reasoning--and otherwise what they think God ought to think is right.

So considering that the ancient Greeks came up with quite socially functional morality based on their own reason, then there is a reason to be moral other than "because God said so."

Hermits and castaways on desert islands don't need morality. People who live in communities with other people need morality. Morality is what weaker people use to convince stronger not to kill them, and what the strong use to keep the weak from killing them in their sleep.

I agree. So why is it that atheists are assumed to be immoral?

 

[JGG]

Is that quote the Christian view or one person's opinion? Could you provide the source for the quote please?

It's a CF poster speaking on behalf of Christians. Fret not, here's more:

"An atheist simply disagreeing, fine whatever it’s just wasted effort talking to those people but most of the time atheists seem to take things a step further and actively degrade any morality outside secular humanism. Mostly due to their ideal of living in a society that had no breaks on the liberal progressive train. “

“Atheists lack the huge body of spiritual knowledge that believers have, thus making them unqualified to ‘provide for the general welfare’ as elected officials.”

“Anti-theist/atheists are bound by the same morals as everyone else no matter what they believe. They may try to twist and pervert this code to suit their own selfishness and to conform to society, but everyone has the same basic idea of doing good which comes from the Creator. At least until their hearts have been hardened and corrupted. “

“Yes , indeed atheism negatively impacts morality and ones desire to be moral. AFterall, isn’t the ideology of Moral Relativism an atheist one ? Of course it is..its counter to a Theist one.”

“So to me an athiest is a lesser person who is closed minded and shallow.”

And as I said, this is the attitude researchers are finding common among believers.

 

[aiki]

The atheists I have encountered all believed they had to act morally, but when pressed they couldn't offer any sound, objective reasons for doing so. That was my point.
​

As opposed to "because God said to"? I don't see how that's sound or objective. Is there an objective reason not to murder your neighbor's child other than "because God said not to"?

"Because God said so" is an over-simplification of the reasons why believers obey their Creator. It makes it sound like Christians are all just blindly, thoughtlessly obedient, which they aren't. The reasons I obey God stem from who He is and from the knowledge that His way is the best way to act.

I don't think there is another objective source for morality that is as sound as the one Christians possess.

Besides, that's a different point from what you said initially: Unlike theists, atheists are not obliged to be moral, have no moral imperative, and have no true "ought to" in regards to morality. What did you mean by that?

Well, from what basis do you as an atheist derive your morality?

What makes a reason for action superior or inferior? What is the effect of having a superior reason?

Philosophically speaking, subjectively-derived moral values and duties are inferior to objectively-derived ones because they reduce to preferences and cannot be truly obligatory as such.

Doesn't look like it. You all know the Christian answer, but just arrived at it in different ways. That suggests that the attitude is intrinsic and justified, not reasonably cobcluded.

No, you're just determined to see what you want to see. That's how a bias works.

As a Christian I know you view atheists as inferior, but cannot say so.

On what basis do propose to tell me what my own mind is on this issue? It takes a great deal of hubris to think you know what I believe better than I do myself.

It's intrinsic in the belief system.

No, its not - no matter how much you wish it were.

I'm just investigating why.

But you aren't really investigating. You're simply trying to confirm your bias.

Afterall you claim atheists have lesser reason to be moral, so why would they be moral? They have a poor reason for doing so.

Yes, they do have a poor philosophical basis for their morality. But, as I pointed out, this doesn't mean that atheists are morally inferior in their conduct.

Selah.

 

[oi_antz]

And as I said, this is the attitude researchers are finding common among believers.

Would you rather say common than popular?

 

[JGG]

Would you rather say common than popular?

Common.

 

[JGG]

"Because God said so" is an over-simplification of the reasons why believers obey their Creator. It makes it sound like Christians are all just blindly, thoughtlessly obedient, which they aren't.

You're source of morality is perfect and objective and you're not blindly obedient? What's wrong with you?

The reasons I obey God stem from who He is and from the knowledge that His way is the best way to act.

And where does this knowledge come from?

I don't think there is another objective source for morality that is as sound as the one Christians possess.

So if I were to give 100 Christians a moral question, theyy would answer the question the same way

Well, from what basis do you as an atheist derive your morality?

What do you imagine it to be?

Philosophically speaking, subjectively-derived moral values and duties are inferior to objectively-derived ones because they reduce to preferences and cannot be truly obligatory as such.

Is that so? How are your "objective Christian morals" different from my "subjective ones"?

No, you're just determined to see what you want to see. That's how a bias works.

Maybe you're biased.

On what basis do propose to tell me what my own mind is on this issue? It takes a great deal of hubris to think you know what I believe better than I do myself.

I'm not saying I know you better. You know it just as well as I do. You're a Christian, right?

No, its not - no matter how much you wish it were.

Prove me wrong.

But you aren't really investigating. You're simply trying to confirm your bias.

I was a Christian when I joined this board 10 years ago. I've investigated.

Yes, they do have a poor philosophical basis for their morality. But, as I pointed out, this doesn't mean that atheists are morally inferior in their conduct.

What philosophical basis is that?

 

[oi_antz]

Common.

Then I think it is not true.

 

[JGG]

Then I think it is not true.

Why's that?

 

[oi_antz]

Why's that?

It's an assumption of a common trait, but I am sure there are exceptions. Therefore, I don't think it is true, but if you said it is popular then I would accept it.

 

[JGG]

It's an assumption of a common trait, but I am sure there are exceptions. Therefore, I don't think it is true, but if you said it is popular then I would accept it.

If I said that dogs have four legs, would you expect that there would be exceptions?

 

[oi_antz]

If I said that dogs have four legs, would you expect that there would be exceptions?

Sure. But that's beside the point. You shouldn't make generalizations about things which cannot be generalized.

 

[JGG]

Sure. But that's beside the point. You shouldn't make generalizations about things which cannot be generalized.

Are these statements not also generalizations? I didn't see you object to them.

The atheist's reasons for his morality are inferior.

As I already stated, Christians differ from atheists in the area of morality... Christians do, though, have more than the subjective basis of atheists by which to judge between what is morally right and wrong.

THe problem for the atheist is that he has no sound, objective basis for his morality. And without an objective and universally-authoritative source for his morality all he is adhering to morally are his own preferences (and/or what moral strictures his particular culture imposes upon him). This means for the atheist that there is, morally, really no true "ought to," no actual moral imperatives, to which anyone is obliged to adhere.

Christians don't follow God's Moral Law for that reason but because they believe God's way is always the best way to live.

I have no problems making generalizations while others use them to look down on me, and hold themselves up as superior.