Is there reason to be moral to others...

[JGG]

What better way to show love not only to God but to others than by having good morals?

Why would that show how much you love God?

God doesn't NEED us to have morals, but it does benefit mankind.

So you're saying Christians are not required to be moral?

 

[aiki]

Well, this is a pretty moronic theory and one that fails to understand Christians on a fundamental level
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Not really, you just said just pretty much exactly what they expected you to say:

"THe problem for the atheist is that he has no sound, objective basis for his morality. And without an objective and universally-authoritative source for his morality all he is adhering to morally are his own preferences (and/or what moral strictures his particular culture imposes upon him). This means for the atheist that there is, morally, really no true "ought to," no actual moral imperatives, to which anyone is obliged to adhere."

That's their theory in a nutshell: Christians have to follow the rules, but atheists don't. Seems like their theory is dead on to me.

My underlined statement above does not preclude atheists from behaving morally, nor does it contradict the idea that they would. So, no, I have not said what you asserted Christians - in theory - think or say about atheists. I believe atheists have their own reasons for "following the rules," though some, in my experience, have not thought very deeply about them.

Selah.

 

[Andrea411]

...other than because God said so?

Not if it conflicts with our own needs or desires. Look at every atheist society and see what happens, they decide what is best for the 'whole'... that means you have to get rid of the ones that drain society. Pretty soon your old, and your one of the drains. It just makes sense to pull the plug.

Morality gives value to whatever is made in God's image, within us is the image of our Creator. When we compromise morality we compromise God and its downhill from there...

 

[JGG]

My underlined statement above does not preclude atheists from behaving morally, nor does it contradict the idea that they would. So, no, I have not said what you asserted Christians - in theory - think or say about atheists. I believe atheists have their own reasons for "following the rules," though some, in my experience, have not thought very deeply about them.

Selah.

Perhaps you should explain what the statement means precisely. The theory is that believers believe that they have to act morally, and atheists do not. How is what you're saying different? It's just interesting because you still maintain that atheists are morally inferior, just for different reasons. This would merely suggest that their theory is too narrow, as it appears that Christians have multiple reasons to assert that atheists are inferior. This suggests a more systemic belief.

How are Christians superior to atheists in this case? Are you saying Christians think about morality deeply?

 

[aiki]

Perhaps you should explain what the statement means precisely. The theory is that believers believe that they have to act morally, and atheists do not. How is what you're saying different?

The atheists I have encountered all believed they had to act morally, but when pressed they couldn't offer any sound, objective reasons for doing so. That was my point.

It's just interesting because you still maintain that atheists are morally inferior, just for different reasons.

The atheist's reasons for his morality are inferior, but this does not mean that the atheist is himself morally inferior. I know some very moral atheists.

This would merely suggest that their theory is too narrow

More shallow than narrow.

as it appears that Christians have multiple reasons to assert that atheists are inferior. This suggests a more systemic belief.

You certainly seem to want them to view atheists this way. However, I don't, as a Christian, view atheists as inferior, though their worldview may be. Atheists are created in the imago dei just as believers are and possess thereby as much intrinsic value as any Christian.

How are Christians superior to atheists in this case? Are you saying Christians think about morality deeply?

As I already stated, Christians differ from atheists in the area of morality in that they possess a more objective, and, I think, more rationally sound basis for their moral values and duties. This doesn't mean that Christians are therefore necessarily more moral than atheists, however. Some Christians have behaved quite immorally at times. Christians do, though, have more than the subjective basis of atheists by which to judge between what is morally right and wrong.

Selah.

 

[JGG]

The atheists I have encountered all believed they had to act morally, but when pressed they couldn't offer any sound, objective reasons for doing so. That was my point.

As opposed to "because God said to"? I don't see how that's sound or objective. Is there an objective reason not to murder your neighbor's child other than "because God said not to"?

Besides, that's a different point from what you said initially: Unlike theists, atheists are not obliged to be moral, have no moral imperative, and have no true "ought to" in regards to morality. What did you mean by that?

The atheist's reasons for his morality are inferior, but this does not mean that the atheist is himself morally inferior. I know some very moral atheists.

What makes a reason for action superior or inferior? What is the effect of having a superior reason?

More shallow than narrow.

Doesn't look like it. You all know the Christian answer, but just arrived at it in different ways. That suggests that the attitude is intrinsic and justified, not reasonably cobcluded.

You certainly seem to want them to view atheists this way.

I just recognize that you do and investigate why.

However, I don't, as a Christian, view atheists as inferior, though their worldview may be. Atheists are created in the imago dei just as believers are and possess thereby as much intrinsic value as any Christian.

As a Christian I know you view atheists as inferior, but cannot say so. It's intrinsic in the belief system. I'm just investigating why. Afterall you claim atheists have lesser reason to be moral, so why would they be moral? They have a poor reason for doing so.

As I already stated, Christians differ from atheists in the area of morality in that they possess a more objective, and, I think, more rationally sound basis for their moral values and duties. This doesn't mean that Christians are therefore necessarily more moral than atheists, however. Some Christians have behaved quite immorally at times. Christians do, though, have more than the subjective basis of atheists by which to judge between what is morally right and wrong.

If Christian morals are objective, how can they be different? If your reasons for being moral are superior then how can you ever justify acting immorally? And which is it that atheists have an inferior reason to be moral or inferior ability to judge between right and wrong (thus making them morally inferior)?

 

[LilLamb219]

Why would that show how much you love God?



So you're saying Christians are not required to be moral?

It's shows love to God by being respectful and appreciative of His Law.

I'm not sure what you're asking with "Christians are not required to be moral?" Required for WHAT?

 

[JGG]

It's shows love to God by being respectful and appreciative of His Law.

So, because God says so.

I'm not sure what you're asking with "Christians are not required to be moral?" Required for WHAT?

To be Christian I suppose. Saved.

 

[LilLamb219]

So, because God says so.



To be Christian I suppose. Saved.

No and No.

I don't love God because God says so. And I don't want to follow His good Law because God says so.

Doing good does not make a Christian. Our triune God makes Christians and he does so by grace through faith. Being saved has nothing to do with what we can or cannot do. We can't work our way to salvation. So being good...well, that could be an outcome of being a Christian, but it does not make one a Christian at all.

Being a Christian is about identity. It connects me to the one who died on the cross for me and forgives my sins.

 

[JGG]

No and No.

I don't love God because God says so. And I don't want to follow His good Law because God says so.

Doing good does not make a Christian. Our triune God makes Christians and he does so by grace through faith. Being saved has nothing to do with what we can or cannot do. We can't work our way to salvation. So being good...well, that could be an outcome of being a Christian, but it does not make one a Christian at all.

Being a Christian is about identity. It connects me to the one who died on the cross for me and forgives my sins.

Then why does God have laws?

 

[Targaryen]

Then why does God have laws?

Why does society have laws? Why do other faith systems have laws?

Lawful actions, no need for consequences.

Unlawful actions, consequences for defying the law.

 

[oi_antz]

Unlawful actions, consequences for defying the law.

That is how law is used, but the original purpose of law is to define what is officially right and wrong when people can't agree.

 

[Targaryen]

Correct.....thank you for adding on to that.

 

[JGG]

Why does society have laws? Why do other faith systems have laws?

Lawful actions, no need for consequences.

Unlawful actions, consequences for defying the law.

Yeah, that's my point. If there are no consequences for not following God's laws, why have laws?

 

[LilLamb219]

God's Law is Holy.

Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

It's a reflection of God's character. That's why we have God's Law.

 

[JGG]

God's Law is Holy.

Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

It's a reflection of God's character. That's why we have God's Law.

What does that mean? Why do we have it?

 

[Andrea411]

Exactly. Christians especially cannot fathom why atheists would be moral. They believe they have no reason to. This is why they hate atheists. They view them as parasites. That's the prevailing theory. Thanks for demonstrating.

I'm not going to argue with you, just saying your wrong. I was an atheist, I don't hate atheists. The Lord didn't hate me, He was gracious to me and loved me even before I knew Him.

I was quite moral before I was a Christian, one of my favorite books was and is Atlas Shrugged, written by that famous atheist Ayn Rand. I always thought if she'd just open her eyes, she'd have seen that she was walking parallel to the Lord. Following truth wherever it took her, but God is truth. Ayn loved truth. I did too. She taught me why I shouldn't lie, bc it lifted the person you were lying to above yourself. In effect, you were kneeling before anyone you lied to.

I still don't hate atheists, even the lord said, He would rather they be hot or cold instead of lukewarm. At least atheists are willing to be cold toward the Lord. i can deal with them better then lukewarm Christians.

I don't hear any Christians I'm around hating on unbelievers....

 

[LilLamb219]

What does that mean? Why do we have it?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

God's Law is Holy. He cannot sin. We are created in God's image, thus, we have the Law written on our hearts, but we sin because of the fall as written in Genesis.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

...other than because God said so?

There are good sound reasons to be moral and not suppress our Moral Conscience which is a manifestation of The Moral Law which God has inscribed (on us) and prescribed :

1. God in his love and thoughtfulness gave us a Moral Conscience so we would be above the animals of the Forest .

1.a. If we obey it, it not only benefits us but it makes for the best civil society imaginable.

2. It is a personal reflection of God himself who is infinitely moral, ethical, reighteous , holy, sacred, etc.... and he made us in his image. Therefore, we should try to maintain that high honor of being fashioned in his likeness as a love-gift back to him.

3. It helps us distinquish what is objectively right from wrong otherwise it is just peoples opinion if something is wrong, bad, or evil. The Moral Law IS the standard for which we judge everything according to...a standard higher and beyond ourselves .

4. When we are moral willingly, we feel good/better about ourselves and this feeling is a God thing also. Knowing we are living properly is good for our self esteem plus knowing we are pleasing God is very satisfying.

5. It is a good example to others on how to live.

6. It is something that we will be accountable for when we stand before Christ at the Judgement Seat of Christ, or for the Unbeliever...at the Great White Throne Judgement . It is called The Book of Works or Deeds.

7. It will afford Us the best and highest satisfaction and benefit if we are moral and ethical . We will be seen as trustworthy, not flighty, not self centered wanting what we want regardless of whether its right or wrong, we will be admired by others, and there is fruit that comes from living uprightly .

8. It is a good legacy to leave behind and it tends to stay in a persons mind .

9. Jesus sacrificed his life for us so that we could be free from the enslavement of sin which includes immorality .

10 . A victorious life of living morally, is objectively better than its counterpart and living according to this truth is what wise people of integrity do and strive for even though they do not always stay in step with Gods Moral Law as much as they want to.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Before you were a Christian, what was the objective standard which leads you to make this absolute statement ? Thanks.