Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[THIS]

Are you thinking they both died?

Jesus died in the flesh. You deny the life of the spirit after the death of our bodies.

 

[Gibs]

Hi all in this discussion of non trinity. I am also a non denominational Christian and solidly a non Trinitarian.

Really the Shema, or proclamation to Israel settles the question,

De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

God in the verse is elohiym and then it tells that is ONE LORD, and LORD in all capitals is the rendering given of the translators for YAYWEH!

And yes Jesus Christ is God with us in a body at Bethlehem and now by spirit as the Father is to dwell in Him in all fullness until all things are under His feet,

Some profound verses now to reckon with from faithful Paul, of which most only will partly comprehend.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How many see this proves that Yahweh is yet fully in Jesus Christ, Messiah, until this sin problem is fully resolved. So Christ in you is still the Father in you yet by Spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sure there is more to add to the fortification of no trinity, a false doctrine.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[THIS]

Hi all in this discussion of non trinity. I am also a non denominational Christian and solidly a non Trinitarian.

I am not a trinitarian. The trinity doctrine is false.

Really the Shema, or proclamation to Israel settles the question,

De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

God in the verse is elohiym and then it tells that is ONE LORD, and LORD in all capitals is the rendering given of the translators for YAYWEH!

The trinity doctrine makes a three-headed god.
There are three, but the three are ONE and the same.

And yes Jesus Christ is God with us in a body at Bethlehem and now by spirit as the Father is to dwell in Him in all fullness until all things are under His feet,

Some profound verses now to reckon with from faithful Paul, of which most only will partly comprehend.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How do you get that Jesus is not God since he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God?
All this scripture is telling us is that we will be like God. We will all be the same. We will be like Jesus. We will not just be spirit. We will not just have flesh, but we will have a new flesh body that is spiritual.

How many see this proves that Yahweh is yet fully in Jesus Christ, Messiah, until this sin problem is fully resolved. So Christ in you is still the Father in you yet by Spirit.

However, Jesus himself lives in those saved.
That means that Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, which IS GOD.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sure there is more to add to the fortification of no trinity, a false doctrine.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Jesus IS the Spirit. Jesus’ Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

 

[THIS]

When we are saved, we receive the Holy Spirit, see Acts 5:32.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, see 2 Corinthians 6:16.

The scriptures also tell us that when we are saved Jesus lives inside us, see 2 Corinthians 13:5.

How do you think that we have three in us if they are not all the same?

There is only one Spirit, see Ephesians 4:4.

Jesus is God and Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

 

[THIS]

In 1 Corinthians 15:25, it says Jesus must REIGN UNTIL HE has put all his enemies under his feet.

In 1 Corinthians 15:24, it says Jesus will hand the kingdom to God the Father, after he [Jesus] has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.

Since the scriptures also say JESUS' KINGDOM WILL HAVE NO END, and the scripture also says Jesus will reign UNTIL...that shows us Jesus was God before coming to earth, he was God ALWAYS while on earth, and he is God in heaven now.

Luke 1:33 and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

Jesus is, and was always God, God with a body, a body before coming to earth, a human body while on earth, and back to his Spiritual body after ascending to heaven.

 

[THIS]

Jesus is the Spirit.

Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17 all tell us Jesus is the Spirit.

See also 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18, and 1 Corinthians 15:45.

 

[Gibs]

"This",
you ask,

"How do you get that Jesus is not God since he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God?
All this scripture is telling us is that we will be like God. We will all be the same. We will be like Jesus. We will not just be spirit. We will not just have flesh, but we will have a new flesh body that is spiritual."

Really the answer to your question is simple and easy to give a right answer.

LORD, Yahweh of Hosts of whom the Father extended of Himself as His Redeemer and so in the fullness of time came in the body prepared of Jesus Christ, the one and only Son of God then in Him became our Redeemer. Read Proverbs 8:22 and possessed means extended!

And so Jesus was also a man and also He was God as Yahweh of Hosts, the Father dwelt in Him. Remember what Jesus told Philip, you have seen me you have seen the Father, Joh 14:9

Read also Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 and verse 9 means fully God in a body.

The Father gave of Himself to come and be our Redeemer in Jesus Christ plus He gave to us His One and ONLY beloved begotten Son made of woman and so He was one of us and One with God as He was also fully God with us, Emmanuel!

Now a bit more of this mystery is that a man had to overcome Satan and wrest back the world stolen from Adam. This could not be done as God or God would have done that in the first place when Adam fell to Satan.

There is more too, that is Christ did it even taking our fallen sinful nature which Adam did not inherit. You see He inherited it from His mother around 4,000 yrs. after the fall.

So you see Satan saw that this ought to be easy pickings as he knew Jesus must not reach within and use the power of God that He possessed. You can be sure Satan monitored this closely as if Jesus did Satan would have won again.

Satan knew also that he must not bring Jesus to death or Jesus would have won by default.

Now, Jesus the man that He was could die and He did that on the cross for us that we could be redeemed. Deity in Him did not sink and die as Deity cannot die but was the power in Him that He could rightly state, "I can lay down my life and I have power to take it up again. Joh 10:18.

Yes many times Jesus spoke as a man and also He could and did speak as God as truly He was God the Father with us in Him.

Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[THIS]

Really the answer to your question is simple and easy to give a right answer.

LORD, Yahweh of Hosts of whom the Father extended of Himself as His Redeemer and so in the fullness of time came in the body prepared of Jesus Christ, the one and only Son of God then in Him became our Redeemer. Read Proverbs 8:22 and possessed means extended!

I was not really asking you a question. I was more commenting on how you could not know the answer.

And so Jesus was also a man and also He was God as Yahweh of Hosts, the Father dwelt in Him. Remember what Jesus told Philip, you have seen me you have seen the Father, Joh 14:9

God did not just dwell in Jesus. Jesus’ Spirit is the Spirit of God.
Jesus tells us that when you see him you have seen the Father. How much clearer does it have to be before you understand?

Read also Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 and verse 9 means fully God in a body.

The Father gave of Himself to come and be our Redeemer in Jesus Christ plus He gave to us His One and ONLY beloved begotten Son made of woman and so He was one of us and One with God as He was also fully God with us, Emmanuel!

Jesus did not have an earthly biological father.
Jesus is no mere human.

Now a bit more of this mystery is that a man had to overcome Satan and wrest back the world stolen from Adam. This could not be done as God or God would have done that in the first place when Adam fell to Satan.

God came as a Man.
A man did not become God.

There is more too, that is Christ did it even taking our fallen sinful nature which Adam did not inherit. You see He inherited it from His mother around 4,000 yrs. after the fall.

So you see Satan saw that this ought to be easy pickings as he knew Jesus must not reach within and use the power of God that He possessed. You can be sure Satan monitored this closely as if Jesus did Satan would have won again.

I do not see that from the scriptures.
Where do you get that?

Satan knew also that he must not bring Jesus to death or Jesus would have won by default.

I do not see that in the scriptures. Where do you get that? How do you even get that Satan could kill Jesus?

Now, Jesus the man that He was could die and He did that on the cross for us that we could be redeemed. Deity in Him did not sink and die as Deity cannot die but was the power in Him that He could rightly state, "I can lay down my life and I have power to take it up again. Joh 10:18.

We are not just flesh we are flesh and spirit. See [FONT=&quot]Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus was not just flesh, he was flesh and Spirit, and the Spirit he had was the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
Jesus raised himself from the dead.

[FONT=&quot]God raised Jesus from the dead.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus raised himself.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus and God are the same. That is why some scripture says God raised Jesus, and other scriptures say Jesus raised himself[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit raised Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Jesus was made alive by the Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is his Spirit.)[/FONT]

Yes many times Jesus spoke as a man and also He could and did speak as God as truly He was God the Father with us in Him.

Jesus was NOT a man who became God.
Jesus is God come as a Man.

 

[Gibs]

This,

I do know the answer, you make me wonder how you are not seeing that we see together.

There is so many scriptures that show the oneness of but ONE God.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is a point that is mute that I disagree as the Father could not come into Christ before He was made of woman, we read this,

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

You see it was LORD or Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem who in the fullness of time that performed the union in Jesus Christ in Mary's womb.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 

[GoingByzantine]

I had sort of a revelation I guess you'd call it about why the catholic church was originally opposed to the bible being written in peoples languages. It's just easier on everyone if everyone just submissively accepts whatever comes from the pulpit. And if everyone is stupid about what the bible says, then that job is even easier. Add in a healthy dose of inquisition and voila you got a rock solid doctrine with 100 percent agreement (all churches have an inquisition, none of course are as potent as the original one). I'd always assumed that the reason was because the catholic church didn't want everyone to know what the bible really said, nowI think differently.
Now the problem is like just the opposite. Everyone has their own idea and there's 10 zillion of them. Same with the trinity or most anything. It's discouraging. The significant thing about this is that in any church it's the same thing, everybody has their own ideas about some things. Should we go left, should we go right should we stay where we are, take a vote and it isn't going to be 100 percent in any category (unless it's a show of hands vote, then the official position would get 100 percent or close to it). Think I'll go out in the wilderness sit in my lawn chair, drink some coffee, and think on this some more. Gotta work this one out.

Even at the height of the RCC pushing Latin only, the Bible was in other languages.

 

[2ducklow]

Even at the height of the RCC pushing Latin only, the Bible was in other languages.

They weren't 100 percent successful but they tried.

 

[THIS]

This,

I do know the answer, you make me wonder how you are not seeing that we see together.

There is so many scriptures that show the oneness of but ONE God.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The three are ONE AND THE SAME.
The trinity doctrine rightly says there are three, but wrongly says that the three are different, distinct, and separate.

There is a point that is mute that I disagree as the Father could not come into Christ before He was made of woman, we read this,

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

You see it was LORD or Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem who in the fullness of time that performed the union in Jesus Christ in Mary's womb.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Jesus is the visible of the invisible God, and he existed in heaven in a Spiritual body before coming to earth in the form of man. Then when he died, rose again, and ascended to the Father, he got back the Spiritual body he had before coming to earth. He is the First and the Last. We will receive a spiritual body like his at the resurrection.

 

[GoingByzantine]

They weren't 100 percent successful but they tried.

Greek and Slavic were licit as well.

 

[pshun2404]

A response part I

Brothers and sisters...there are a couple of things that brought this dispute about that I want to share with you...LORD please give me the words to speak that in the end will help resolve some tensions and bring you glory, Amen...

First, as some of you know, in the earliest church there was a dispute where the followers of one Arius had interpreted scripture in such a way as to claim the teaching should be understood to say that Messiah (Jesus/Yeshua) was a lesser, secondarily created, subordinate being or god despite all the "there is none else" scriptures where YHVH plainly states He alone is God and there was none before Him nor any created after Him.

The initial beginning of the arguments that ended up as what is now called "Trinitarianism" began as a RESPONSE by mostly gentile followers, almost 2 centuries after the Apostles. The responses given were to counter this obvious misinterpretation (the earliest church were strict scripturalists, if a position or doctrine could not be found there it was NOT to be required...I can supply many quotations to this effect all the way up to Nicea).

Now among the protestors of Arianism (which was not settled until Nicea in 325 A.D.) there were bishops and scholars with a few variant views. There were two schools of what we now call modalists and there were two schools of what we now call trinitarian though none of these groups called themselves or thought of themselves by these terms...

One group of so-called modalists saw the one God as having made Himself manifest in three forms (as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). The other, that of Noetus and Praxeas saw Him as one God who is the Father, came as the Son, and then dwells in us as the Holy Spirit.

The latter originally would say the Father IS the Son and the Spirit…modern Oneness Pentecostals say Jesus IS the Father, Son, and Spirit.

Another majority group saw the one God as a unity of three hypostases, each being eternally distinct. These saw YHVH as Father, Son, and Spirit which was much closer to the early Jewish followers of Yeshua who saw Him as the visible image of the invisible God, the brightness of His glory (again that which can be seen, heard, and known), in fact the express image of His “person”, and that the fullness of God (not Godhead, but in fact that only means Deity) dwelt in the born man “Jesus”….

These differences arose out of the Apostolic experience...the Apostles believed "there is only one YHVH (LORD)"...the term “God” however was a generic and sometimes was used to speak of angels and even certain men in positions of institutions started by YHVH (Judges, Prophets, Priests, Kings, etc.) who themselves were not "Deity" but had been delegated power sometimes even over life and death...but as for what we call "God" there was and is only ONE. Bear with me and the distinctions should become more clear...

So for the Apostles to know there is only one YHVH, yet now YHVH has revealed Himself in three ways....as the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit...but there were not three YHVHs....the one and only YHVH who is the Father, must be the same one and only YHVH manifest as or in the Word/Son, and the same one and only YHVH (not a different one, or a co- one) IS the Holy Spirit...yet in their personal experience before and after Shavuot/Pentecost (beyond anything most of us have ever experienced) they saw and heard subject/object dialogue between the Father and the Son. They learned that even though these all appeared to be forms of the one God, the YHVH (the Father) had certain roles, functions, knowledge, etc., that that YHVH did not share as/with the Word/Son, or the Holy Spirit. Likewise certain roles, functions, knowledge of the Word/Son, was not those demonstrated by the Father, or the Holy Spirit, and likewise for the Spirit. So how were these Jewish people supposed to understand this? They did not bother to. They just accepted that this was all the doing of the one and ONLY YHVH, and that Messiah was YHVH manifest in the flesh. He was “God” with us (that is as a man).

This was not a NEW thing…Jewish scholars/Rabbis of certain traditions had long understood this idea of the Word of YHVH being at once sent by/from YHVH and yet also being in fact YHVH Himself. This “tradition” had culminated in the views expressed by the Targumim of the 1st and 2nd centuries in both Jerusalem and Babylonia. For example, Targum Onkelos renders Genesis 15:6 as, “and Abraham trusted in the Word of YHVH, and He counted it to him for righteousness“, while the Jerusalem Targum on Genesis 22:14 says, “and Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word of YHVH and said, You are the YHVH who does see, but You cannot be seen“. In Genesis 16:3 he has Hagar praying “in the name of the Word of YHVH“, as if God had made Himself seeable, and yet she was not consumed!

Targum Onkelos on Genesis 28 reveals to us that the Memra (the Word) was Jacob’s God. The one with whom He wrestled (in the form of a man) and about whom he said "I have seen God face to face”. In Psalm 62:9 He is David’s God as well. Targum Jonathan says “the Memra of YHVH created man in His likeness, in the likeness of YHVH, YHVH created...”. In the Jerusalem Targum the Word is the “I Am“ of Exodus 3:14! If the Targumim were correct then all the “I Am with you” passages are referring to the Word or Memra, thus Immanu-El.

According to the Targumim, Hosea 1:7 says that God will save the House of Judah by the Word of YHVH and Isaiah 45:17 and 25 also tells us that the true Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHVH, “with an everlasting salvation” (yeshuah), and that “by the Word of YHVH...shall all the offspring of Israel be justified“. Who with even a vestige of intellectual integrity can deny such a witness?

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

A response Part II

So later, after Constantine became Emperor and legalized Christianity, he insisted they put an end to these distinctions…decide the correct solution and make it THE doctrine all Christians were to adhere to.

One root of this decision was because in the arguments between Arius and Athanasius, Athanasius kept employing the prefix co-. The problem is whether or not that was what Athanasius was emphasizing…! In these council debates, the prevailing group saw the co- as so distinguishing the Father, Son, and Spirit that two shades arose…one that emphasized the one God in three personae and the other as the three personae in their Unity…now both are included in the concluding legalized acceptable belief but one shade emphasized the ONE in His Threeness, the other His threeness as a Unity…now though this sounds the same ot at least similar they are actually antithetical.

So I want to give a portion of the creed attributed to Athanasius and see if you cannot guess which side he actually was on…

“Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

So these thoughts are not a judgment and neither are they to persuade your doctrine but just to allow us to think about the struggle…all I know is that God created us in His image and I am a spirit person who is also a father, and also a son but I cannot say there is any adequate earthly expression which can grasp the comprehensibility of true God, I only know there is only one YHVH and that according to the scriptures He is the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Spirit…as to the distinction of these revelations of Himself which He gave us to me they only prove His omnipresence, that He is able to be, and yet be manifest, and by no means compromising or dividing His unity. In my humble opinion, the church in the west and then in the east took the co- part of the Athanasian arguments to an extreme not merited by the scriptures, and later in the west extended this concept of co-ness to others (Mary, the Pope, etc.,)

I hope I have contributed and not offended…

In His love
Paul

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The three are ONE AND THE SAME.
The trinity doctrine rightly says there are three, but wrongly says that the three are different, distinct, and separate.

Jesus is the visible of the invisible God, and he existed in heaven in a Spiritual body before coming to earth in the form of man. Then when he died, rose again, and ascended to the Father, he got back the Spiritual body he had before coming to earth. He is the First and the Last.

We will receive a spiritual body like his at the resurrection.

I can't wait for that

John 17:11
And not longer I-am in the world and these in the world are, and I toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........

John 20:7
Jesus is saying to her "no Me be thou touching! for not as yet I have ascended toward the Father.
Be thou going yet to the brethren of Me and be thou saying! to them 'I am ascending toward/proV <4314> the Father of Me and Father of ye
and God of Me and God of ye'.

Reve 12:5
And she brought forth a son, *male, who is being about to be shepherding all the nations in rod iron.
And is snatched-away the offspring of her near/toward/proV <4314> the God and toward the throne of Him.

 

[THIS]

I can't wait for that

Come, Lord!

 

[Imagican]

Except for the fact that GOD is the biological Father of Jesus.

Jesus has not earthly father.

So, from YOUR perspective, God is His OWN Father???????? For you previously offered that Christ was: GOD in the flesh. So if Jesus was/IS God in the flesh, and He had NO earthly father, that would make Him His OWN Father.

And this makes absolutely NO SENSE according to scripture. For Christ references His Father over and over. The simple FACT that Christ claimed to be the SON of God shows that he was NOT 'God in the flesh'. But the SON of God IN THE FLESH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Gibs]

No, Imagican,

God is not His own Father but He sure is the Father of Jesus Christ the man child born of Mary.

Now what most don't get is the fact then that Jesus cannot be considered total Human as His Father is God and the Father determines the blood of the offspring.

Now read this,

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jesus could speak as a man and did many times and He could speak as God and did many times as the one and only God dwelt in Him in all fullness.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So we see He was fully God in a body! Also we see Matt. tells us He is Emmanuel, God with us, for sure the Father, the one and only God!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

Now those verses tell us that God is our Saviour and He did that by coming in Jesus Christ His man Child made of woman in the fullness of time.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

LORD of Hosts is God the Father and He performed the union of Himself and Jesus into one!

1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]So, from YOUR perspective, God is His OWN Father???????? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]They are the SAME. Jesus says so. Why don’t you believe Jesus?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Bible says there is ONLY ONE GOD---AND THAT HE IS THE FATHER.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Since there is only one God and He is the Father---that shows us that Jesus is the SAME as the Father. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your false trinity doctrine makes three gods. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For you previously offered that Christ was: GOD in the flesh. So if Jesus was/IS God in the flesh, and He had NO earthly father, that would make Him His OWN Father. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I can hardly believe you do not know the Bible well enough to know that Jesus did not have a biological earthly father.[/FONT]
Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

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And this makes absolutely NO SENSE according to scripture. For Christ references His Father over and over. The simple FACT that Christ claimed to be the SON of God shows that he was NOT 'God in the flesh'. But the SON of God IN THE FLESH.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God came to earth in the flesh AS THE SON OF MAN.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Your doctrine is nonsense.
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[FONT=&quot]Man CANNOT become GOD.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]However, the Almighty God can and did come to us as a Son of Man.[/FONT]
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